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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I sure others will chime in. But if I haven't mastered something in one key or a few keys, I find it very dry and unproductive to work on playing it in 12 keys.
    I instead take tune and apply the concept whereever I can in the tune. This way you end up working on it in a few keys in a musical way. But also killing two birds because you're also learning the tune better in the mean time.

    I would take two altered ideas. Say augmented arpeggio from the third and b9, #9 down to the 6th (the 3rd of the target) and come up with phrases based on these two. Then I would apply them to a tune that I know reasonably well. I would consider that a very productive practice session.
    Thanks
    Ive worked out a few patterns using arps and short scale runs to fit a II V I and practised them in the key of G and F so far.
    Please could you spell out the notes for your suggested altered ideas - sorry I'm dull. Cheers

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Thanks
    Ive worked out a few patterns using arps and short scale runs to fit a II V I and practised them in the key of G and F so far.
    Please could you spell out the notes for your suggested altered ideas - sorry I'm dull. Cheers
    I work on these things in the context of tunes. If I get a chance, I'll pick a tune and record something to show one way of working on developing phrases.
    In the key of Gminor the notes of D7alt ideas I mentioned would be:

    #9, b9 down to the 6th: F, Eb, D, C, Bb (note Bb is target here as it's the 3rd of Gminor)
    augmented arpeggio from the third: F# Bb D F

    Note the arpeggio can be connected with the first idea since the last note of the arpeggio (F) can start the first idea. Passing notes, trills, approach notes, octave displacements, triplets etc can be used to generate various phrases with just these two building blocks and resolve to G minor. Like I said, if I get a chance, I'll record one way of how to do this in the context of a tune.

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Possibly because it's about altered scales in relation to ii-V-I's.

    ... although it appears the OP has lost interest :-)
    Thanks all for your comments. So much great stuff.
    Sorry for some delay in my responses - there will be more to follow!!
    No, I most certainly have not lost interest and I am indebted to you all.
    Cheers

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I work on these things in the context of tunes. If I get a chance, I'll pick a tune and record something to show one way of working on developing phrases.
    In the key of Gminor the notes of D7alt ideas I mentioned would be:

    #9, b9 down to the 6th: F, Eb, D, C, Bb (note Bb is target here as it's the 3rd of Gminor)
    augmented arpeggio from the third: F# Bb D F

    Note the arpeggio can be connected with the first idea since the last note of the arpeggio (F) can start the first idea. Passing notes, trills, approach notes, octave displacements, triplets etc can be used to generate various phrases with just these two building blocks and resolve to G minor. Like I said, if I get a chance, I'll record one way of how to do this in the context of a tune.
    Thanks Tal for the explanation.
    I've been using something similar which is either an idea by Jens Larsen or based on one of his ideas.
    ie. over D7alt - an Ab7 arp to the aug giving : notes Gb Eb C Ab (back up to) D Bb F# C ending on B (or Bb) on the tonic.
    Yes, these phrases have to be applied to songs.
    Cheers

  6. #55

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    Another thing that helps is using a repeated rhythm. (I know a lot of the examples just chug along in 8th notes, so this is an additional idea.) A repeated rhythm across chords ties them together and makes whatever pitches you play sound more inevitable. Sprinkle in a little voice leading and voila!

  7. #56

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    Not an expert on this, still struggling, but it seems to me the easiest way to get the sound of the altered dominant in one's head is on a ii V I, for the V, play the Pentatonic scale of the Tritone. So for G7, play Db Pentatonic: Db Eb F Ab Bb gives you b5 #5 b7 b9 #9 and it's easy enough to find. Almost any note then resolves by a half-step to something that fits a C Major. Baby steps, to be sure.

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I have always struggled with scale-centered approaches. I have a hard time remembering scales, remembering where to use them, and I basically over-think everything. I have recently instead started learning licks from lick books or memorized solos that use whatever sound (I like "sound" better than "scale") I'm trying to learn. I learn those bits of vocabulary and try to export them to whatever else I'm playing until they fall under my fingers reasonably well. I know I should learn the scales, run 'em up, down, modes... but I just hate that stuff and I've never been able to absorb the sound ideas and actually finding them on the fingerboard that way. Likely this is why I'll never be that good at jazz! But I have found I prefer to learn little "vocabulary" items and phrases from actual solos that I can absorb and re-use.
    I don't tend to find myself using the scale approach either. I think about note relationship to the chord as well as licks.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Not an expert on this, still struggling, but it seems to me the easiest way to get the sound of the altered dominant in one's head is on a ii V I, for the V, play the Pentatonic scale of the Tritone. So for G7, play Db Pentatonic: Db Eb F Ab Bb gives you b5 #5 b7 b9 #9 and it's easy enough to find. Almost any note then resolves by a half-step to something that fits a C Major. Baby steps, to be sure.
    Dom Pent at tritone gives you the 3rd in place of #9. I find pitch collections against alt doms sound more convincing when the 3rd and 7th is present, but then, I'm a wuss....

  10. #59

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    There is a way to get the altered sound by using the minor pentatonic from the b3 of the dom chord - i.e. Bbm over G7. It's interesting because it only contains all the altered sounds including the b7 but not the dom chord root:

    Bb Db Eb F Ab Bb

    It works although, personally, I find it a bit unsubtle :-)

  11. #60

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    Yea altered scales, arpeggios, chords etc... personally are just about how I want the note collections to Function.

    By Function I mean ... Where and Why the notes create a perception of movement. Both melodically and harmonically. There are still three basic types of movement or Functional Groups.

    Tonic... or stable
    Dominant... or the least stable
    Subdominant... the middle area...

    Chords and Arpeggios are easy to see and hear, melodic lines through use of Tendency Tones, either Context Dependent or Style Dependent... also create that perception of tension.... which generally wants to resolve or move to Consonance. And that perception of Tension created defines what Function Group. T SD D

    If your still trying to get the fretboard thing together... that's just a matter of choosing what fingering system you use or want to use. And work it out.

    If your still having melodic problems of spelling or implying chords and their type of Function,
    Like an Altered II V7 I thing. You need to go through the process of notate it out... using typical patterns.
    You need to decide on which versions of each chord you want to pull notes from...

    examples

    D-7b5 G7altered C-7 ( or Cma7)

    So there are a few choices of D-7b5 right.
    This basically from CST, but using it as a musically organized approach for sources for possible spellings of Chords

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)

    I generally like Locrian and Locrian #6

    Anyway...I added a PDF of G-7b5 chord Arpeggio fingerings with example of pattern, starting on rt, b3, b5 and b7.
    You go through same process with all chords and also more patterns with embellishments which imply how you want the chord or arpeggio to create Function.I like Blue Notes, and use MM (altered) with a Dorian reference.
    You then start using Subs, both Functional and Diatonic. Expand both through using Chord Patterns etc...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Reg; 10-10-2020 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #61

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    Appreciate the post ...

    I'm going to try to break it down note by note.

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale. There are three flats in this scale Bb, Eb, Ab.

    Semilocrian and Superlocrian from F Mel. Min. Two flats in this scale, Bb Ab

    Locrian #6 and Ultralocrian from F Har. Min. This one I'm not getting. Three flats in F harmonic minor. Ab Bb Db. A Db against Dm7b5? Maybe this is C harmonic minor? C D Eb F G Ab B . Second mode is Locrian #6. That would be Eb and Ab.

    Dorian b5 and Locrian bb7 from C Har. Maj. C D E F G Ab B C. One flat, Ab.

    So, taking it as a whole, for Dm7b5, all the scales contain C D F G Ab. Then, you get to pick B vs Bb, E vs Eb. That's 4 possibilties (don't forget, they all have an Ab).

    B E - D dorian b5
    Bb Eb - D locrian
    Bb E - F melodic minor
    B Eb - C harm minor

    So, my thought is to make a backing track, play a line and then play it with each of the above adjustments.

    The scale names can be confusing until you get used to them ... but it's really just two notes varying by a half step each.

    What am I missing?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-10-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  13. #62

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    Hey Rick, thanks. yes..I'm old.LOL screwed that up, I fixed above... Here are the corrected spellings...

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)


    Yes the 1st or starting "Reference" for each chord, ex. of the D-7b5 is just a few different notes when you expand the chord with extensions etc. But when you start using Function Groups as musical Control, (T SD and D)...

    Basically when you start playing not just what the chart or tune is, but some of the possibilities of expanding etc...

    That single chord, D-7b5 can become... Diatonic or Functional Sub.
    ex.
    Diatonic subs are up or down a Diatonic 3rd. Up is F-7 and Down is Bb7

    Functional subs are style or context derived. Simple example D-7b5 as Dominant function resolving to Ebmaj could have Function sub of Bb7 or any other chord with same Function, the tritone sub... Fb7 or expand using Borrowing from Relative and Parallel relationships.

    Chord Patterns expanded from that D-7b5... can be as different as Maj and Min... And with Jazz or any Style or Context dependent Functional organization... the result, depending on how many layers etc... anyway it gets a little complicated and embellishment approach becomes mud. Or as I say to often, vanilla with mud.

    When you start using Modal interchange as expanded Borrowing approach, there are very organized layers of expansion. When one embellishes a note... the embellishments can also have harmonic organization.

    Anyway... yea thanks for fixing the HM reference, getting me to check what I'm writing LOL.

    I'll also post some more on your Wave... thread...I was singing your melodies for a few days, and I have some very organized concepts for making rhythm work.

  14. #63
    You guys know your stuff. It's getting a bit heavy for me now. I'll need to spend a lot of time on this thread. Lots of theory which I'm starting to struggle with. I appreciated it all though. Cheers.

  15. #64

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    I wouldn't worry about the theory side of it too much. It's mostly just wanking.

    I don't think you need to know what a 'semilocrian' or 'ultralocrian' is to play jazz. (Actually what the fuck is a semilocrian at that? Is ultralocrian some incredibly silly name for mode VII of harmonic minor? You guys lol.)

    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy and that'll do more good than hanging out with us weirdos.

  16. #65

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    Knowing how to make altered sounds is one thing, knowing where and when to use them is another. And probably more important.

  17. #66

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    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy
    Listen to Uncle Christian. For once he's right.

    Just this once, mind :-)

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Rick, thanks. yes..I'm old.LOL screwed that up, I fixed above... Here are the corrected spellings...

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)


    I'll also post some more on your Wave... thread...I was singing your melodies for a few days, and I have some very organized concepts for making rhythm work.
    Reg, looking forward to your posts re rhythm, and, that you were singing my melodies is very gratifying. Thanks for mentioning it.

    More notes on the notes:

    Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min: This one has four flats. Bb Eb Ab and Gb. That Gb takes it out of the two-notes-varying paradigm I forwarded earlier. Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D. Gb is handle-with-care; sounds pretty dissonant to me, but the "wrong" note in the right line can be the best note.

    Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min: This one, I guess, has a Gb. Notes are Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb D. This one adds a Cb. That's also a challenging note against Dm7b5.

    I guess I don't understand why to think of the scales with a Gb as a "scale choice" rather than as just another note you might be able to find a clever use for in the context of the usual scale choices.

    Some of the material on usage is over my head. I find the scale names confusing because I haven't worked with them enough. But, at one level it's still varying just a few notes by a half step, in every possible combination.

    I think the utility of the various ways of thinking depends on how you approach soloing in general.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-10-2020 at 10:55 PM.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I wouldn't worry about the theory side of it too much. It's mostly just wanking.

    I don't think you need to know what a 'semilocrian' or 'ultralocrian' is to play jazz. (Actually what the fuck is a semilocrian at that? Is ultralocrian some incredibly silly name for mode VII of harmonic minor? You guys lol.)

    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy and that'll do more good than hanging out with us weirdos.
    Yes, it's all interesting stuff but far beyond me. There's plenty for me to do messing around with a few altered notes. For me, it's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt.
    Cheers.

  20. #69

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    Yeah I mean to be honest, the altered scale is a bit of chimera when it comes to II V I's, but that's a whole different long and tortuous thread.

    Voice leading is the key in these situations. Focus on stuff that moves by semitones.

  21. #70

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    So garybaldy -

    Where are you now, if you don't mind my asking? We're on page 2 now and there have been lots of answers, some simple, some not.

    You said, in your very first post: 'Can anyone suggest a good approach please?'. Now, on page 2 after all this, you've said: 'It's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt'.

    To me, that reads like you're no further forward. You're still asking the same question as at the beginning!

    There's no magic solution, it requires application. Beware quick 'n easy answers. There aren't any and, if there seem to be, it's unlikely they'll give you a real understanding of altered sounds and how to use them.

    The basic solution, which I know you already know, is to use the melodic minor scale a half-step above the root of your dominant chord - i.e. Ab mel m over G7 before CM7. There's no way round that. When that's understood then other ideas can be played with but one really has to start with that.

    It's not a question of throwing them at any old dominant chord, though. Non-resolving dominants (doms in the middle of a tune) usually need a lyd dom approach, but that's something else. Altered sounds over dominants nearly always occur over resolving doms, i.e. ones that resolve to their I chord, major or minor.

    So that's your approach. You can do exercises to get the notes under your fingers but then you need to apply them to something otherwise there's not much point to it.

    Take a tune you like. Don't forget they can resolve to minor chords too, not just major. Just experiment with them till you've got it.

    On a guitar, of course, shapes are moveable. The Ab melodic minor, which has its bass root on the 6th string, can be moved up or down anywhere you like. You don't have to learn a hundred different fingerings. Likewise with a 5th string root like C or Eb mel m which can also be moved.

    Those two should suffice at the beginning. Master those two and you'll be up and running fairly quickly. Listen to the sounds the notes make and put them in. Obviously the more you do it the simpler it gets.

    So it's up to you. The question's been answered really, hasn't it? Well, for me it has anyway. So, over to you...

    Then come back and show us how you're doing. If you want to, that is. It's not an exam!

  22. #71

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    Here's something if you want it. This the first 8 bars of 'All The Things You Are'. It uses four separate keys, each one with a resolving dominant:

    Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7
    DbM7 - G7 - CM7 - %

    Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - EbM7
    AbM7 - D7 - GM7 - %

    Eb7 = E mel m
    G7 = Ab mel m
    Bb7 = B mel m
    D7 = Eb mel m

    I've just looped it 3 times. And the first line is the example you asked about in your first post.


  23. #72

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    So Gary.... most of this isn't really much theory. It's basic technique on your instrument.

    You should know and be able to at least play on your instrument...

    Major Scale and it's modes and Chord
    Melodic Minor Scales and it's modes and Chords
    Harmonic Minor and it's modes and Chords

    That's just 3 scales and their modes and chords, (starting on each degree of the 3 scales) That's only 21 patterns

    Throw in Diminished and Whole Tone, (symmetrical scales and chords)

    The next step is to learn Blue Notes and be able to add them to those scales and chords. Which will teach you how to expand blue notes.

    (Harmonic Major has been used in the last 30 or 40 years, get the basic three down first)

    This is just very mechanical technique... nothing magical, just basic jazz tools.


    Then you'll start to get into basic jazz theory... not complicated, just becoming aware of basic relationships.

    Like in II V I's, what is the Tonal Target or basic tonal reference which musically controls the possibilities of what notes you use.

    Ex. If your D-7b5 G7alt is going to Cmin. and you want that Cmin to be your Tonal Target or Tonal Reference...
    you would choose the extensions, Blue Notes, (added notes and embellishments), for the D-7b5 and G7alt.... that have a Relationship with that Cmin.....

    If your playing a Min Blues, or a swing tune.... that would have a Style or Context influence. (Context or Style Dependent).

    Now, yes it gets a little more complicated, I use Functional relationships to also influence added notes, and even use subs and chord patterns created from Functional expansion. But you don't start here.

  24. #73

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    It would help to know what kind of music garybaldy is specifically interested in playing.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It would help to know what kind of music garybaldy is specifically interested in playing.
    He mentioned boot camp.


  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So garybaldy -

    Where are you now, if you don't mind my asking? We're on page 2 now and there have been lots of answers, some simple, some not.

    You said, in your very first post: 'Can anyone suggest a good approach please?'. Now, on page 2 after all this, you've said: 'It's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt'.

    To me, that reads like you're no further forward. You're still asking the same question as at the beginning!

    There's no magic solution, it requires application. Beware quick 'n easy answers. There aren't any and, if there seem to be, it's unlikely they'll give you a real understanding of altered sounds and how to use them.

    The basic solution, which I know you already know, is to use the melodic minor scale a half-step above the root of your dominant chord - i.e. Ab mel m over G7 before CM7. There's no way round that. When that's understood then other ideas can be played with but one really has to start with that.

    It's not a question of throwing them at any old dominant chord, though. Non-resolving dominants (doms in the middle of a tune) usually need a lyd dom approach, but that's something else. Altered sounds over dominants nearly always occur over resolving doms, i.e. ones that resolve to their I chord, major or minor.

    So that's your approach. You can do exercises to get the notes under your fingers but then you need to apply them to something otherwise there's not much point to it.

    Take a tune you like. Don't forget they can resolve to minor chords too, not just major. Just experiment with them till you've got it.

    On a guitar, of course, shapes are moveable. The Ab melodic minor, which has its bass root on the 6th string, can be moved up or down anywhere you like. You don't have to learn a hundred different fingerings. Likewise with a 5th string root like C or Eb mel m which can also be moved.

    Those two should suffice at the beginning. Master those two and you'll be up and running fairly quickly. Listen to the sounds the notes make and put them in. Obviously the more you do it the simpler it gets.

    So it's up to you. The question's been answered really, hasn't it? Well, for me it has anyway. So, over to you...

    Then come back and show us how you're doing. If you want to, that is. It's not an exam!
    Still p1 I'm afraid. Family life and troublesome vehicles have taken over for a while.
    I'm still very grateful for everyone's offerings.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Family life and troublesome vehicles have taken over for a while.
    Well, to be honest, those things are a bit more important than music. Good luck with them.

  28. #77

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    All of this stuff takes lots of time. All of the modes and chords of the harmonic minor scale? I've worked on that a little every once in a while, but it doesn't seem to apply to most of the music I play. As a result, it's something that ends up on the back burner.

    Back to the Alt scale mystery:
    When using the Dorian mode of a minor chord vamp, you can't really hit a wrong note, so melodic lines are easier to come up with. But with so many dissonant notes in the Alt scale it isn't so easy to hear how to use them. There seems to be more ways to come up with lines that sound terrible than lines that sound good! From what I'm hearing from Jazz musicians, arpeggios tend to work better than a linear (scalar) approach. And playing random notes usually turns out yucky.

    How about experimenting with starting (and ending) lines on different notes within the scale? This would help to hear each of those alt notes (one at a time). That approach would also lower the tendency to repeat the same riffs stolen from Wes!

    Also, just because a V I cadence comes up doesn't mean an Alt scale riff is needed. Paraphrasing Chic Corea, ..."if don't hear what to play, don't play anything".

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I work on these things in the context of tunes. If I get a chance, I'll pick a tune and record something to show one way of working on developing phrases.
    In the key of Gminor the notes of D7alt ideas I mentioned would be:

    #9, b9 down to the 6th: F, Eb, D, C, Bb (note Bb is target here as it's the 3rd of Gminor)
    augmented arpeggio from the third: F# Bb D F

    Note the arpeggio can be connected with the first idea since the last note of the arpeggio (F) can start the first idea. Passing notes, trills, approach notes, octave displacements, triplets etc can be used to generate various phrases with just these two building blocks and resolve to G minor. Like I said, if I get a chance, I'll record one way of how to do this in the context of a tune.
    Funny that the example above is a straight Bb major scale down, with Bb being the corresponding major to G minor.

    I have spent a lot of time learning the AbMelMinor scale, arpeggios of several altered chords, tritone substitutions and all, just to find that I'd been playing that stuff all along and called it blue notes. Well, at least now I know what I'm doing

    Anyway, I'm thinking of changing my signature to "Blue notes were killed by Bmelmin and Abaugmaj, warlords of Super Locria".

    O Elbereth Gilthoniel!

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    All of this stuff takes lots of time. All of the modes and chords of the harmonic minor scale? I've worked on that a little every once in a while, but it doesn't seem to apply to most of the music I play. As a result, it's something that ends up on the back burner.

    Back to the Alt scale mystery:
    When using the Dorian mode of a minor chord vamp, you can't really hit a wrong note, so melodic lines are easier to come up with. But with so many dissonant notes in the Alt scale it isn't so easy to hear how to use them. There seems to be more ways to come up with lines that sound terrible than lines that sound good! From what I'm hearing from Jazz musicians, arpeggios tend to work better than a linear (scalar) approach. And playing random notes usually turns out yucky.

    How about experimenting with starting (and ending) lines on different notes within the scale? This would help to hear each of those alt notes (one at a time). That approach would also lower the tendency to repeat the same riffs stolen from Wes!

    Also, just because a V I cadence comes up doesn't mean an Alt scale riff is needed. Paraphrasing Chic Corea, ..."if don't hear what to play, don't play anything".
    Aye.

    I think one thing that it comes down to is; what can you hear? Then the actually much more trivial problem of, can you play what you hear?

    And simply wanting to 'not play wrong notes' is not good enough. Much jazz education is framed in an incredibly stupid way from the point of view of psychology. Avoid notes; prohibitions. Don't fuck it up! Don't play the F#! Don't think of the elephant!

    You are setting yourself up to FAIL. Ask any psychologist. (Also these exact prohibitions, these potential 'mistakes' somehow don't sound like mistakes when played by real musicians. Almost like the rules aren't really that important.)

    It's not wrong to say the 13th on a IIm7 is an avoid note because it 'gives away' the sound of the dominant....
    but it's not a very helpful way of framing it.
    Why instead not simply say - using the 13th on a IIm7 chord will make the chord sound like a dominant?

    No; instead of 'avoiding wrong notes' think about playing the right ones which are of course, ones that you hear.At first these 'right notes' might actually be Wes Montgomery's right notes. After a while, they will become right notes you haven't heard on a record. And you discover that the rightness of these notes is as much a function of time as pitch.

    When I call the altered scale in II-V-I situations a 'chimera' I mean that it is a semi-successful attempt to roll together a whole bunch of different things into one 7 note pitch collection. The head of a whole tone scale, a second head of a minor into major modal interchange with false relations, a third head of a diminished scale, the body of a tritone sub and the tail of an enharmonic misspelling.

    It's not wrong exactly; but it's not enough.... It's an abstraction of something that its not always helpful to abstract.

    For example, not all altered chords - even those belonging to the altered scale - sound alike. A 7b5#9b13 chord is profoundly different colour to a 7#9b13. One of the biggest limitations of CST, taken on its own, is that it simply doesn't contain enough detail to make stylistic and nuanced choices regarding harmony.

    I have have found it helpful to use a number of separate techniques that relate to the altered scale; the scale in its entirety is quite rare. The fairly obvious fact is most II-V-I jazz lines don't have enough notes in them for the altered scale analysis of them to be anything other than an abstraction.

    Generally you have two situations:

    1) where the scale is used as voice leading (in which case we may as well just use voice leading.)
    2) where the scale is used as a colour - for instance in a non-functional tune

    In the latter case, it is usually better to use something consonant as a sub for this - triads and pentatonic scales are good here (such as the subs suggested above), also consonant intervals like 4ths and 5ths through the scale.

    We can characterised approach 1) as Swing, Bebop etc and approach 2) as Post-modal, Fusion, Contemporary.

  31. #80

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    Just to illustrate my rather wordy point, here is a fairly stock line taken from a Wes solo:

    I Need an Altered Dominant Scale Boot Camp Regime-wes-lick-no-chords-jpg

    So, without knowing the 'background harmony', what's the simplest way of understanding how it is constructed?

    How many situations can we use it in?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    But with so many dissonant notes in the Alt scale it isn't so easy to hear how to use them.
    That's why I just go for it and what happens happens. And usually it's fine.

    But the absolutely essential thing is to know, more or less, where you're going. If you're focussed on the alt scale too much you'll miss the resolution. And usually it's the resolution that determines how you play the alt scale.

    In that Wes lick, he was heading for the 3rd of the M7, which is a very good place to go. But if he'd had the 5th in view he'd have played the alt line differently, right?

    Or, of course, you just play your alt notes and go for the nearest M7 tone (probably not the root, too boring).

  33. #82

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    An awful lot depends on how complex a song is. That's why I love Bluesy Jazz and Jazz Standards that are just easier to improvise on. And of course, fast tempos give us less time to know what to do when it's time to interject the Alt scale.

    Also, when someone calls out a song that I don't know from Adam, it's pretty much CST for me. It's all fun, but mostly when there's freedom to forget theory and just play. Which means hitting notes that might be perceived as wrong lol.

  34. #83

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    I always think of it like language. There's the word and then there's how to use it!
    practice Melodic Minor arpeggios and scales throughout the entire fingerboard.
    Then practice it against your ll,V,l minors.

  35. #84
    One of the most difficult aspects re altered/melodic minor is learning enough to justify wood-shedding it in a meaningful way. It's a little difficult to hear in others' playing at times, because most of the notes can be thought of in the context of another scale etc. Learning where the notes are is pretty important. The workaround I found that helped the most was working on Reg's idea above of Extended Diatonic Relationships (chords up and down a third). This is important with Melodic Minor, because there are scale degrees which are just honestly lesser-used in practice. The 2nd scale degree (dorian b9) isn't used as much, but if you practice it as an "upper extension of altered", you can learn to hear and see it much more quickly. The same is true in wood-shedding it as a lower extension of the IV of melodic minor, Lydian Dominant.

    Lydian dominant is the gateway drug IMO, because it has more parallel direct relationship to the chord/scale it's subbing. It's much easier mentally and kinesthetically to woodshed A-7, Ab7#11, Gmaj7 than A-7 Dalt Gmaj7. (D altered doesn't spell cleanly as a parallel analogue to D mixolydian. It also doesn't lay out that way on any instrument. Players on all instruments physically/mentally learn altered from the parent melodic minor scale first. Many actually think about it that way as well always. It's not traditional functional 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and isn't spelled that way in relation to D7.) So, start with just learning melodic minor scale chord relationships for each scale degree in one position each, starting from the 6th string, and then relationships up and down a third. That way, all scale degrees have a relationship to at least one easily used chord application.

    Back to altered, again, you're not going to hear multiple measures of straight melodic minor playing, and that isn't the point. But this fact is very often used to imply that it isn't that important. I'd disagree with that, but whatever. Another Reg concept which is super important, not only for long-term application but also for short-term practice/motivation etc, is the concept of harmonic rhythm. Most altered lines are a measure long or half of a measure. It's really helpful to practice going in and out of altered and learning to hear it. In real life, you often "go altered" at the end of a phrase "on the weak side" of a chord pattern, maybe even just the last beat, but one beat of altered isn't easy to practice. So, practice playing 3 measures of D mixolydian and 1 measure of D altered. Listen for it in transcribing.

    Learn some of the cliches. #9-b9-1-7 -(3 of I chord) is pretty standard, but think about it in terms of harmonic rhythm as well. It might be viewed as 4 notes diatonic maj, 4 notes altered V, 4 notes diatonic major. Learn to hear the in-and-out. The fact that it's brief, doesn't mean that it "doesn't exist" or that it's not important to learn as a stand-alone. It's not simply "embellished diatonic" in the way many players think of it, and if you learn to see it as a stand-alone, you can eventually apply in other ways and extend the ideas into longer phrases as well. It has a ton of implications for extending blue note ideas, CESH patterns over minor chords, developing mixed chord patterns over single chords etc.

    Forgotten about this old video. It's too long honestly. Sorry... it is what it is...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-17-2020 at 04:26 PM.

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    I'd like to be able to form a smooth run over,for example, Bbm7 Eb7alt Abmaj7 at the drop of a hat.
    Cheers
    why?

  37. #86

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    Here is a pretty good boot camp regime:

    http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PD...nePatterns.pdf

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Here is a pretty good boot camp regime:

    http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PD...nePatterns.pdf
    Phew! That was some workout, but I think I've got it memorized. Got any more?

  39. #88

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    There used to be a monster PDF of about 200 Sonny Stitt solo transcriptions on the web, not sure if that’s still around!

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Phew! That was some workout, but I think I've got it memorized. Got any more?
    Set up a mirror and play it right-to-left. Then turn the pages upside down, etc...

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Here is a pretty good boot camp regime:

    http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PD...nePatterns.pdf
    Thank you for posting this. Very interesting and a little overwhelming.

    Are these all based on patterns Coltrane actually played? I couldn't find any information on how they were compiled.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thank you for posting this. Very interesting and a little overwhelming.

    Are these all based on patterns Coltrane actually played? I couldn't find any information on how they were compiled.
    No idea, I assume they have been transcribed from recordings. Each pattern is repeated 12 times (i.e. taken through all 12 keys) so I guess that is possible, given how many ii-Vs there must be in Trane’s recorded solos.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Set up a mirror and play it right-to-left. Then turn the pages upside down, etc...
    I just tried this, wasn't quite working for me, until I played them left handed like this, and then it seemed to make more sense, cheers!

  44. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Here is a pretty good boot camp regime:

    http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/PD...nePatterns.pdf
    Thanks for the link.
    Could someone please talk me through the use of the #7 over a Dom7th when it doesn't appear to be a chromatic passing note or part of an ornament (if that's the correct word)? Thanks

  45. #94

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    I think you can play any note as long as it is part of a phrase which has some kind of internal logic, and resolves eventually. A fairly fast tempo probably helps too.

  46. #95

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    Voice leading. So long as Gb eventually resolves to G there’s really no issue. As you get used to that you can add notes in between.

    So while
    3 x 3 4 x 2

    might sound bad on its own, in context I bet few would notice

    x 5 3 5 6 x
    3 x 3 4 x 2
    x 3 2 4 x 3

    Here we have F-F#-G in the top voice

    The Db mixo scale BTW gives the complete chromatic chromatic scale in combination with the C6/9/major pent. its like the most efficient way of playing a cadence....

    Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb B
    C D E G A

    Cool huh? (I think so) look at all the semitone resolutions.

    Trane loved mathematical patterns in music and studied with Dennis Sandole who was a big Webern and Schoenberg head so it’s likely he’d clocked this.

    The altered scale is similar but has G instead of Gb... because jazz needs to be tidied up otherwise daddy gets angry.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    why?
    you may think i was being facetious but this is the question you need to answer for yourself first.

    you barely have enough time to read this thread yet folks recommend to you to study the semi- and ultralocrian (whatever those are) or consider a 4nps approach. these may be valuable tips for some but certainly not for you.

    so again, why? and why in all keys? is it because you see the chord symbol "alt" a lot and gather that this must be an important part of jazz improv? or are there special tunes you're studying? or do you like the sound of a passage you think is altered?

    -do you know that the alt symbol is basically the musical equivalent of putting a wet finger in the air? (i.e. usually just sloppy notation)
    -are you aware that in jazz we improvise over functions first?
    -are you familiar with the concept of tritone sub?
    -can you play a II-V into minor?
    -are you aware of the principles of chord substitutions, like VI subbing for I and IV for II-V? can you improvise using those principles? can you include the tritone sub of the IV chord and resolve to I?
    -can you access and resolve altered notes in a dominant chord via grips like x8787x (F7b9) or play simple formulas like 3 b9 1 7 around the cycle?

    all of the above should be butter and bread to you.

  48. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Thanks for the link.
    Could someone please talk me through the use of the #7 over a Dom7th when it doesn't appear to be a chromatic passing note or part of an ornament (if that's the correct word)? Thanks
    In harmonizing for horn charts or block chords, it's often looked at as being a dominant approach to the dominant-chord-of-the-moment. G# on an A7 chord could be things like 3rd of E7 approach chord to A7. Same with it's tritone, Bb7. These can be harmonizations for block chords or jumping off points for extending melodic ideas off of the maj-7 interval.