Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Someone here (Hi, Royce!) gave me this book a few years ago. I worked in it some and put it aside. I'm working in it again, getting much further into it, and enjoying it.

    One of the things I like best is that the patterns are not described and places where you might use them are not suggested. Some are obvious (13654543; 32434531) while others are not. Some go on and on (usually moving in half- or whole-steps) and suddenly change. The time signatures may change too. Good stuff.

    Oliver Nelson's "Patterns for Jazz Improvisation"-51gfgid5sml-_sx398_bo1-204-203-200_-jpg

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

    One of the things I like best is that the patterns are not described and places where you might use them are not suggested.

    Well... he does say most of the patterns won't work over the bridge for Cherokee.

    .

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    Well... he does say most of the patterns won't work over the bridge for Cherokee.

    .
    And that was always the first thing I would try, so he did save me some time there. ;o)

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    This is an “instrumental facility” book. That’s cool but it’s not guitar specific, which is ok and not so ok. Playing a cell, fragment or arpeggio and then moving it up or down chromatically may be a challenge on some instruments, but not ours.

    There is no question that you will train your fingers with this book. But there are a few important things to consider.

    1. There is no analysis, so the player doesn’t know why they are playing what they’re playing.

    2. If the objective is to learn and build jazz vocabulary, it really needs to be harmonically specific and there needs to be an understanding of what one is doing with that harmony, and to go slow as they learn it.

    3. Instrumental jazz instructional methods that teach the player direct and indirect approaches that are chord and chord progression specific, and further show one how to play it in more than one place on the fretboard, should offer a much better opportunity for investment of one’s time. (II-V-I, blues, rhythm changes, turnarounds, etc.).

    4. Then take that around the circle of fifths and other cycles and you’ll have a much better fretboard oriented jazz language learning journey.

    Life is short. One has to be careful with how they spend their time.

    IMO of course, what do you think?

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    This is an “instrumental facility” book. That’s cool but it’s not guitar specific, which is ok and not so ok. Playing a cell, fragment or arpeggio and then moving it up or down chromatically may be a challenge on some instruments, but not ours.
    This is true if you simply move the pattern up using the same fingering.
    This is something valuable that could be learned by doing so full range,
    within the limits of any 5 frets which require a variety of fingerings, some
    comfortable, some less so to navigate the pattern.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Yeah but context specific practical application will remain a mystery for most people slogging through this book, most likely.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan View Post
    Yeah but context specific practical application will remain a mystery for most people slogging through this book, most likely.
    That's where an understanding of harmony or lessons with a teacher who understands harmony come in.

    What I wanna know is where I can get a copy of Patterns for Casuals ;-)

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Neither does Slonimsky.

    It’s almost as if you shouldn’t spend time on those books until you know what you are doing or something

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    BTW this reminds me of the mad scales in the Duncan Lamont book. He says ‘these will work over any chord.’

    Not sure if the Nelson book is like that, but people perhaps get too involved with thinking music is a closed system. Probably because that’s the way it’s presented all the time.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-26-2020 at 08:57 AM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan

    1. There is no analysis, so the player doesn’t know why they are playing what they’re playing.

    2. If the objective is to learn and build jazz vocabulary, it really needs to be harmonically specific and there needs to be an understanding of what one is doing with that harmony, and to go slow as they learn it.
    I think these are fair points. If someone told me they wanted a pattern book for get their playing together for jazz standards, I'd suggest Carol Kaye's "Patterns For Jazz": short and specific, though with insights about substitutions and moving things around so that the same phrase can fit over various parts of a progression.

    My approach to anything I learn is "what can I do with this?" "What can I make out of this?" I find bits and pieces here that I can use to make lines that suit me. What the author was thinking when he created them might prove interesting to me if I were to learn it, but it is a secondary concern.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Yeah but context specific practical application will remain a mystery for most people slogging through this book, most likely.
    I think if you listen to this a few times and then approach the book, you'll do so in the right frame of mind.


  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Like Mark Rhodes said, if you listen to an Oliver Nelson album first, the book makes a lot of sense. It was kind of a big deal when it came out (late 60's?) because it was one of the few non-bebop books around (not that were all that many bebop books). If I remember correctly, a lot of the book is diminished and augmented licks that were very new at the time, but pretty standard fare now.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Thanks. Makes more sense now, modal.

    Sounded a whoooole lot like up-tempo So What, or Impresssions

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    I slogged my way through this when I was a sax player - it doesn't seem so useful for the guitar which is an instrument with fairly singular technical challenges .

    I think it might be best thought of as a book of 'etudes using jazz phraseology'

    I remember working my way slowly through the book over a few months and then seeing an interview with a sax player who said that he would play through the whole book as a warm up for his practice session .

    That's when I realised that I was unlikely ever to be a pro jazz saxophonist ...

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    It's been a very long time, but I think the Oliver Nelson tune Hoedown has a few of the licks in the book. The 1st clip has a short Jimmy Raney solo. The solos on the 2nd clip (from Blues and the Abstract Truth) by Eric Dolphy and Nelson, have many more of the licks.





    Stolen Moments on Blues and the Abstract Truth is another source of licks from the book.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by unknownguitarplayer
    It's been a very long time, but I think the Oliver Nelson tune Hoedown has a few of the licks in the book. The 1st clip has a short Jimmy Raney solo. The solos on the 2nd clip (from Blues and the Abstract Truth) by Eric Dolphy and Nelson, have many more of the licks.





    Stolen Moments on Blues and the Abstract Truth is another source of licks from the book.
    I tried to sight read that descending maj3rd pattern ON used on the bridge of Hoe Down. I just wound up staring at the page as the horn players were all over it. Jimmy Raney plays it perfectly.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Standard soup du jour for sax and trumpet players in the 70's and beyond. I bought my first copy in 1973. It's not really for improvisation ,per se, but rather facility in playing scales/runs which are very different for horn players vs. guitarists since there are no common positional patterns that can be used for all scales. Every scale is unique and must be memorized individually which is why it takes most horn players so long to bloom. It's a good workout. I used it during my warmup exercises. Play live . . . Marinero