The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRMan
    Yes I have heard the term, wise guy. I gather that you are referring to pronation of the forearm, actually a very partial pronation of the forearm, as pronation would have the palm facing the floor, and no guitar playing is performed as such.
    Guitar playing being what it is, someone will probably think of a counter example lol.

    The phenom Django was severly handicapped and had the use of two fingers, so is not a good example. Wes the phenom chose to use his pinky sparingly, not unlike many blues players. That too is unnecessary, and would most likely force one to shift while playing the Amin arpeggio in question.
    The list of jazz guitarists who play with a pronated left hand position (that usually advantages the third finger at the expense to the fourth) might actually be longer than the list of players who use a classical right hand.... there are a few in the middle somewhere.

    The number of fingers you use is not particularly of interest here, but as I say you will tend to favour three fingers in a heavily pronated (blues) position. You can write a fairly convincing history of jazz guitar with just these players. So, you can talk about 'the right way to do it'; but guys with pronated left hands are pissing rings around everyone when it comes to single note technique (gypsy jazz players.)

    OTOH the less or non-pronated left hand is best suited towards the demands of polyphonic playing, so that's why it became so popular with classical players and so on. I see reducing or eliminating pronation completely in this regime as helpful in developing a good polyphonic left hand technique. But there are notable classical players who pronate quite a bit.

    Rosenwinkle went to Berklee so was no doubt influenced to use Leavitt's fingerings. He obviously practiced a lot. Is anyone surprised that he strained his left hand? I'm not.
    Given Kurt did the classic thing and never actually graduated, its unlikely he was learning basic technique at Berklee, but in fact already at a high level. What his teachers taught him as a beginner I don't know. I got the feeling he started as a rock player (IIRC?) which would explain the left hand posture an why stretch he's got him into trouble. But, quite possibly Leavitt. (I don't teach Leavitt much, but it's obvious he put a lot of thought into it, the books are a little dry.)

    A heavy playing schedule will always have an element of wear and tear regardless of how well optimised your technique is - however, Kurt clearly felt the problem go away when he started to avoid stretches, and I get the impression he still puts the hours in. I mean, have you heard him lately??

    Many other players have had similar problems, including me. I was trying to play Bach without adopting correct classical posture, and I gave myself carpal tunnel inflammation.

    Stretching is HIGH IMPACT, especially if you don't adopt the appropriate posture - the classical posture with the footstool is designed to keep the left wrist straight and relaxed. Now, some players - Ben Monder for instance - adopt this posture, but most jazzers play with the guitar a bit more parallel to the floor. In this case you have a modified left hand position. So you'll see many experienced players pronating their hand slightly to accommodate stretchy chords and so on, doing what they can to avoid stretching the hand too much. They may do this unconsciously - good players tend to listen to their bodies.

    This is a good policy, I think, unless you really want to study classical technique, and very importantly - get it right. If not, you are probably best off developing a more mobile approach for single note playing.

    It also sounds better. I've never had anybody when asked say they preferred the sound of a fully fingered phrase in position to one with lots of shifts and slides in it.

    So it's very possible to be a bit - forgive me - Dunning Kruger about this. Technique on the guitar is very diverse, and players who can clearly keep it up for hours and hours, years and years by definition are doing something right. As a pedagogue, you can start off very certain you have a good approach, reach crisis point where you realise you know nothing, and then slowly climb up the other side as you recognise general principles that unify all the ways

    Now as a teacher - there are all sorts of dilemmas and choices to be made. Even if I am teaching classical - something pretty defined and traditional, right? - the starter books by and large advocate one finger per fret - because it's easy to teach and kids can apply the rule. OTOH by the time he get to the first polyphonic pieces in Grade 2, the fingering scheme has to shift, suddenly the rule is no longer a rule. There's a conceptual and physical bump in the road when that happens. Can that be eliminated by using fourth finger from the start? Not sure!

    OTOH if someone wants to learn blues-rock guitar I am not teaching them classical fingering. We are going to pronate that hand and get it in the right place fro blues box pentatonics, bends and eventually vibrato.

    Are we seeking a balance between polyphonic and single note playing, such as in jazz guitar? The we might have to move back and forth, or strike a compromise. That's where you need a real understanding, because stretches and things have to be carefully dealt with.

    As with most teachers, my ideas are evolving constantly. Dogmatism doesn't help, but a diverse approach has to be informed by a deeper understanding.

    So, no, it's not that easy.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Understood. I think the word pronation is being used in an informal and misleading manner, however well intentioned. A slang use.

    Guitar playing inlvolves forearm/wrist supination (palm facing the sky) as opposed to pronation (palm facing the ground). Then it rotates slightly in the direction of pronation but never appoaches full pronation by any stretch of the imagination. It might pronate from the supinated position by 60-70 degrees. True pronation would have it rotate 180.

  4. #28

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    Compare what I've said with this advice for violin technique - violinists aim for a pronated position.

    Pronation in the Left Hand in Lower Positions | The Ideal Violinist

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Compare what I've said with this advice for violin technique - violinists aim for a pronated position.

    Pronation in the Left Hand in Lower Positions | The Ideal Violinist
    I fully understand. It simply means pronated relative to full supination, nothing more. Instructions might be - "fully supinate your forearm/wrist, now pronate it 30-60 degrees, and hold".

    If you removed the guitar, didn't see the person turn their wrist, and took a snapshot, you would accurately observe that the wrist is overwhelmingly in supinated position. In other words, 60 degrees away from fully supinated position is 120 degrees away from fully pronated position, so it's a bit of a misnomer.


    I think we've beat this horse enough.

  6. #30

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    I think the way I used the term is in common currency among stringed instrument teachers. It might not be accessible to non string instrument teachers, it's true. But, I'm being quite technical here, and I think hopefully people commenting here can follow the drift of what I'm saying, because it's mostly aimed at them.

    As far as the OP goes, I need to SEE. Picture (or better, video) speaks a thousand words.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think the way I used the term is in common currency among stringed instrument teachers. It might not be accessible to non string instrument teachers, it's true. But, I'm being quite technical here, and I think hopefully people commenting here can follow the drift of what I'm saying, because it's mostly aimed at them.

    As far as the OP goes, I need to SEE. Picture (or better, video) speaks a thousand words.
    no disagreement here.

  8. #32

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    I think the problem here is that the pinky is just a weak finger. Did Django ever use that appendage? Most stretching should be between the 1st and 2nd finger yet there isn't really any stretching in the OP's situation. One thing that can be done is to strengthen the pinky by pressing and holding it down on the fretboard, release and repeat. Don't overdue it, but it's kind of like lifting weights. I've built strength in all of my fingers and hand doing this - slowly. There's also videos on finger warm up stretching for musicians that help a lot.

    But I've also had older students that had pinkies that were just useless. If that's the case, learn to do everything with the 3rd finger instead. More slides and hand movement (up and down the neck) will become the technique to use.