The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    joshd , this is the absolutly best example ive ever heard of a guitar player using lead and comping, benson with jo jones. if you are searching for this concept, here is your model to shoot for. look for the tricks in here.

    you mention from one bar to the next. im not sure why you say one bar comp, one bar lead , for sure this could be a definite call responce concept . one bar goes by fast



    its got a kind of "moanin " thing going on then , right ?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The metronome is a powerful tool, but if you always put the metronome on the beat and synching with it you will end up playing perfect and even but locked in with the beat, or very jerky jerky and dotted. You won’t really swing either way.

    That’s a very European way to look at rhythm. African diaspora rhythms are also concerned with what happens between the beats....

    Many jazz musicians are aware jazz players do not dot the rhythm but in fact play straight. Others are aware that they may lag the beat a little. I’ve heard a few musicians - Peter Bernstein is one - talk about straight and laid back phrasing, soloists lagging the beat a little. You can hear this best in medium tempo phrasing.

    listen to the way Paul Chambers moves between playing the riff of So What behind the beat, and when he’s playing walking lines he is pushing as a good bass player should.

    the wide beat concept talked about above.

    However, the difference between lag and drag, between push and rush - is feeling the upbeats in the right place. This is not in fact always easy even in straight feels.

    For instance put the metronome on your DAW and play a bebop head. See where your upbeats line up; you’ll see right away how consistent - or not - you are.

    Now put the click on the upbeats and play the beat.

    You can do this straight or swing, but it’s about developing your ability to feel the upbeats independent of the beat. We tend to be ... weak at this. A good drummer can explain it you in their playing and lock you in if you are listening and able to feel it, but we can and should always become more sensitised to it and stronger at holding it.

    Groove itself is consistency. You might not be placing your upbeats on any grid, but you do want to be placing them in the same place. Do this and the groove will come. It’s not about metronomic exactness, but it is understanding how the upbeats and downbeats relate and making the negative spaces in rhythm just right.

    drummers understand this much better than guitar players obviously.

    Some people are going to talk rubbish about ‘intuition.’ If you are serious about your playing you don’t have time to indulge these fantasies. Ask a good drummer instead.
    Great info here, thanks so much. I guess being aware that I'm doing it was a step forward in a sense. Actually, I've found it to be reasonably easy to correct since my initial post. But I definitely have a tendency to fall behind the beat if I don't focus on being on it!

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlD
    The absolute best way to develop a strong feel is playing along with others who have a great feel. Learn some solos by your favorite players, and play along with them. Over and over and over. Not loosely; exactly. I mean, EXACTLY. I can still play the first guitar solos I've ever learned, note for note, and I learned them nearly forty years ago. Those are your bible. Don't just learn the lines. Squeeze every bit of juicy goodness you can out of those gems. And their time is everything.

    It doesn't matter what genre of music we're talking about, it never ceases to impress me to hear really great players mimic their favorites. They're frighteningly good at that. I'd LOVE to hear Metheny do his Wes impression. Pat doesn't sound anything like Wes, but I guarantee when he learned that stuff, he grabbed every little nuance, every detail, and sounded scary close. I've heard Brecker do that with Coltrane, Eric Johnson imitate, well, just about anyone, and so on. Play those solos along wth the masters and match it up perfectly. And then do it some more. Do it until you just f'ing crush it. The internet is full of players playing their favorite solos, along with the original, and their time just isn't on it. Keep working on it.
    Yup. I am really hitting the transcribing hard. Tbh I am noticing it helps a lot with phrasing but I find it very hard to place beats - especially at high tempo.

  5. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    An aspect of this that I haven't seen discussed relates to focus.

    My time is different when I make a conscious effort to focus on swinging hard.

    But, too often, I'll shift focus to some other aspect of the music -- chord tones, scales, trying to find space for the guitar in the sound, trying to vary chord voicings, respond to some idea I hear in the band, trying to execute a melodic idea etc etc etc.

    So, for a too-short period of time, I can swing hard, but, somehow, it doesn't seem to be my natural state. When I hear players with great time-feel, it doesn't seem like there's any other way they could play if they tried.

    The obvious advice is to practice, focus, practice, focus, until it becomes the natural state. But, I haven't found that to help much.

    New topic:

    I know players with poor time who have spent massive amounts of time with the metronome. I have wondered if it becomes a crutch. Then, instead of creating the time, you let the metronome do it and you can get used to that. I know great players who swear by metronome practice and great players who don't.

    Thanks for the input. Actually, I have found focus in general a little problematic and I think it relates to your 'new topic' - it's too easy to switch off when practicing with a metronome. Sure I might still be on time, but I'm not really picking anything up. I find it's similar when practicing arpeggios and stuff, it can become just a mechanical exercise and even though I think I am focusing, I'm not. It's kind of like when people expect to get in shape by going to the gym, but don't actually work out ?

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos


    joshd , this is the absolutly best example ive ever heard of a guitar player using lead and comping, benson with jo jones. if you are searching for this concept, here is your model to shoot for. look for the tricks in here.

    you mention from one bar to the next. im not sure why you say one bar comp, one bar lead , for sure this could be a definite call responce concept . one bar goes by fast



    its got a kind of "moanin " thing going on then , right ?
    The bar for bar thing is really an exercise I was given. Tbh I am finding it quite useful as I have to think quicker and can mix in arpeggio/scale practice.

    Hahaha I love that Benson clip, not seen it before! I'm yet to go near any of his lines though!

  7. #31

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    I can't speak for anyone else, but, my time feel is best when I maintain consciousness of my time feel.

    So, the task isn't to learn to do it, it's to make it automatic. To make it the floor, not the ceiling.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos


    joshd , this is the absolutly best example ive ever heard of a guitar player using lead and comping, benson with jo jones. if you are searching for this concept, here is your model to shoot for. look for the tricks in here.
    I'm not about to argue with that.

  9. #33

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    But listen to the way jo jones plays guitar on the bass drum, makes it possible for George to solo at the start of his solo... He's probably do that anyway TBF as he was old school, but how many drummers do that now lol? George plays those little chord stabs nice and tight.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I can't speak for anyone else, but, my time feel is best when I maintain consciousness of my time feel.

    So, the task isn't to learn to do it, it's to make it automatic. To make it the floor, not the ceiling.
    Maybe it works better for you. You tend to play more relaxed than I do.

    So, I think this has three elements

    1) hearing rhythms clearly and accurately
    2) having your chops together to play accurately
    3) being able to relax into it

    You might have one of these qualities.

    I feel I know people who have 2) and 3) and not 1), so they often float. With a good rhythm section they can sound pretty damn good because the drummer will feed them the subdivisions etc, but it can be tiring to play with because they don't have a really strong sense of where the rhythms are at.

    Often they sound very good on recordings with a click etc. They can be very stylish and cool when they get a little more intention.

    On the other hand more fiery people might have 1) and 2) but not feel 3). So they can drive and push and speed up even when we aren't egregiously out of time. But they can be exciting players if we get it under control.

    And some players might have 1) and 3) but not quite have the articulation. So you have sloppy players with good feel... Who I respect a lot more than I used to haha.

    (And there are people with great time who lean one way or the other. Lots of people say Oscar Peterson drives the tempo for instance. On the other hand Wes tends to slow bands down.... different personalities... Anyway.)

    But record yourself and see what you think. My playing sounds both more in time and a lot more vibey surprisingly when I take my foot off the emotional gas in the way Hal and ... 80/20 dude? ... describe. Watch yourself playing.

    Trying to create groove doesn't help at all for me... I have to be still and know.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-28-2020 at 06:30 PM.

  11. #35

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    for sure , christian, about jo jones , and the bass drum . its also like some walking bass sometimes ..

    the other huge factor that brings it all together is the the great dancer

    this music at its most grooviest , and in certain eras for sure, is for dancing . the beats were made for dances .

    just playing for dancers needs a really firm strong groove ( i love all my associations with dancers )

    that clip blows my mind , and i love if i can do duo with players who know how to be a contained rhythm section, or actualy , we are implying that together, best grooved when served up with a great dancer ( a great samba guitar player who knows , just with drums or percusion even, can hook up with a samba dancer really well )

  12. #36

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    joshd

    everything you are saying about this aproach, can be framed by "call and responce " .

    you call out in a blues shout your lead, and respond with the chord in a rhythmic cadence to compliment it in the groove

    the fewer notes the better

    "call responce " is huge in the afro diasporic diologue . most all the grooves can be broken down into "call responce" parameters , and jazz swing is righth in there too

    so , i think if you aply your mechanics like people are talking about here, and frame it with a "call responce" concept, you should be able to cop it. cop the pick up thing im talking about, and you move your center of gravity up, so , if you go back after practicing the anticipated pick up, and go for the one again, its easiar. you may even want to keep the pick up anticipation aproach for ever and not worry about the one , and be on top of the beat

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Maybe it works better for you. You tend to play more relaxed than I do.

    So, I think this has three elements

    1) hearing rhythms clearly and accurately
    2) having your chops together to play accurately
    3) being able to relax into it

    You might have one of these qualities.

    I feel I know people who have 2) and 3) and not 1), so they often float. With a good rhythm section they can sound pretty damn good because the drummer will feed them the subdivisions etc, but it can be tiring to play with because they don't have a really strong sense of where the rhythms are at.

    Often they sound very good on recordings with a click etc. They can be very stylish and cool when they get a little more intention.

    On the other hand more fiery people might have 1) and 2) but not feel 3). So they can drive and push and speed up even when we aren't egregiously out of time. But they can be exciting players if we get it under control.

    And some players might have 1) and 3) but not quite have the articulation. So you have sloppy players with good feel... Who I respect a lot more than I used to haha.

    (And there are people with great time who lean one way or the other. Lots of people say Oscar Peterson drives the tempo for instance. On the other hand Wes tends to slow bands down.... different personalities... Anyway.)

    But record yourself and see what you think. My playing sounds both more in time and a lot more vibey surprisingly when I take my foot off the emotional gas in the way Hal and ... 80/20 dude? ... describe. Watch yourself playing.

    Trying to create groove doesn't help at all for me... I have to be still and know.
    I'll try to express this another way.

    Tap your foot and sing, bareheaded, a nice version of Come Fly With Me.

    Then, put on one of these ...

    The Classic Frank Sinatra Hats

    Start snapping your fingers and hear the Billy May band playing Frank's arrangement in your head, vamp a 3625, and keep those fingers snapping Sinatra style.

    I know, that if I do that, my time feel is going to swing harder.

    The issue is, next time I play the tune, which way am I going to play it?

    I have to remind myself. Most likely, Billy May did not.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'll try to express this another way.

    Tap your foot and sing, bareheaded, a nice version of Come Fly With Me.

    Then, put on one of these ...

    The Classic Frank Sinatra Hats

    Start snapping your fingers and hear the Billy May band playing Frank's arrangement in your head, vamp a 3625, and keep those fingers snapping Sinatra style.

    I know, that if I do that, my time feel is going to swing harder.

    The issue is, next time I play the tune, which way am I going to play it?

    I have to remind myself. Most likely, Billy May did not.
    the head wear is important.

  15. #39
    Joking aside, one of my aspirations with all this is to get to a standard where I can pull off a jazz hat.

    I also want to be able to refer to people as 'cats' and describe things as 'hip' without it raising any eyebrows.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshd
    Joking aside, one of my aspirations with all this is to get to a standard where I can pull off a jazz hat.

    I also want to be able to refer to people as 'cats' and describe things as 'hip' without it raising any eyebrows.

    Relax)).. just trying doing some music, some fun...

  17. #41
    Thanks for all the advice. Have been practising my timing way more. Turns out there's quite a lot wrong ?

    Does anyone have any tips for counting? I noticed through all this that I cannot keep track of the bars at all unless they are telegraphed by another instrument.

    As it stands, I can either count or play. Not both together ?

  18. #42

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    Counting is like practicing anything. You have keep some things constant while working on the difficult thing.

    so if you have trouble counting while you improvise, take a bop head or a lick, and work on counting through that. You might have to do a bar at a time, that's OK. Your brain will get used to it over time.

    With this type of work, a lot of it is coordination. I find writing out the way it lines up with the beat can be helpful and then practice slowly.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshd
    Thanks for all the advice. Have been practising my timing way more. Turns out there's quite a lot wrong ?

    Does anyone have any tips for counting? I noticed through all this that I cannot keep track of the bars at all unless they are telegraphed by another instrument.

    As it stands, I can either count or play. Not both together ?
    well the good thing is you didnt quit, which is what i wanted to do when i first tried this after playing for years