The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Posts 76 to 99 of 99
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    This is about 50, give or take. Definitely swings.


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But you keep saying 50 and, several times more recently, 30. No question about it.

    I'm obviously missing something.
    Maybe I am too, not sure. Maybe my definitions are different?

    Performance tempo- a tempo I would play at a gig.

    And if I did play a tune at a gig that slow, I wouldn't be playing many 8th notes. It's something for the woodshed.

    Swing- locked into the upbeat for the most part for groove, different placements of downbeat for a swing effect. I don't consider dum de dum de dum for more than a few notes swinging. I don't have a definition for swinging triplets, but mine are actually locked into the downbeat which gives me a push and pull between triplet and 8ths.

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quite, re that Oscar vid. One wouldn't just keep up a mindless dum-de-dum, it would be all kinds of straight/swung effects.

    Plus the blues feel, of course, always works :-)

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
    My post is very helpful as long as it doesn't offend you.
    maybe logically it might still be helpful even if it did offend me? But I’m not offended and it’s not helpful either.

    so I’ll put the ball in your court - How do you feel a musician should work on their swing feel and general time/feel?

  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    Ok so one quote I do find useful is Louis Armstrong

    ‘swing is about getting the notes in the right place.’

    really refining a sense of time and swing is about being able to discern accurately and precisely the rhythm you are trying to play. That includes, and this is most difficult for most people; the negative space, including the endings of notes, rests and so on.

    It’s not about ‘feeling the groove’ or ‘playing with soul.’ So why do I say this?

    Well, how many times have we thought we were really feeling it and listened back to recordings only to find we were rushing, over articulating or pushing the tempo. I’m sure the classical guys going dum de dum de square as all fuck think they’re really swinging.

    OTOH ever listened back to a gig you thought was flat and cold only to realise it was a lot more happening than you thought?

    Swing for the audience is emotional, physical connection. For the musician it is perception, awareness and good technique. Be exciting, not excited. Don’t try to be on stage and in the audience. You don’t get to enjoy your own music in that way.

    I know this is probably hard for fans to realise. They would like to think the musicians feel the same way they do.

    that’s not to say it’s cold or intellectual, but it’s not about putting emotion into the music. Emotion emerges from doing the music right .

    that’s what I’ve learned.....

  7. #81
    I don't even have a soul and I swing just fine.

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    Xtian -

    it’s not about putting emotion into the music. Emotion emerges from doing the music right
    Can't go with that. Doing it right means you won't get told to do it again with feeling :-)

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Xtian -



    Can't go with that. Doing it right means you won't get told to do it again with feeling :-)
    I’ve literally never been told that lol :-)

    (There’s quite a few singers I’d like to do it again with less feeling. I’m sure you know the ones I mean.)

    anyway on sessions people mostly want the guitar to be in time.

  10. #84
    Eh and Ragman, Does "feeling" and "soul" routinely get brought up at gigs and rehearsals for you?

  11. #85

    User Info Menu

    You can always do the blues face if pushed.

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    Going slower...even try to play some straight 8ths in here.


  13. #87
    Nice playing, Beaumont. I hope you continue posting and slowing down and seeing where things start breaking down. Make sure you keep some straight eighths in there as that’s what the real challenge is as things get ridiculously slow imo.

  14. #88

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    Eh and Ragman, Does "feeling" and "soul" routinely get brought up at gigs and rehearsals for you?
    Never, although there was the infamous gig in a pub once where some girl walked in and pouted 'So where's the party?'.

    Can't remember what I said but I'm sure it was very helpful

  15. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ok so one quote I do find useful is Louis Armstrong
    ..
    There are some things in music which can't be written down. Time feel is one of them. I realized it first with regard to samba.

    The feel is uneven. This has been proven by recordings of Baterias, then analyzed by juxtaposing a metronome over the frequency graph. The 16th note pulse does not line up.

    But that's not why it can't be written. Rather, that's because the alignment, or lack thereof, is different at every tempo.

    Same for ride cymbal in swing. More than one way to do it and the precise timing depends on the tempo.

    If you see a chart that says, "play with emotion", do you change what you play? Can you write down the difference?
    What about "play with energy?"

    So, "play with great time feel and strong emotion" can't really be notated. And that means it can't be taught based on where the note falls no matter how finely you subdivide. Because it will fall differently at a different tempo.

    I think it has to be felt. Preferably, you hear it when you're young enough to learn it without the analog to a foreign language learned too late.

    Some players play every note with energy and great time feel. Reg plays like that. Seems ,like it's his baseline. There are some things you can say to help somebody attain it, but, I think, the best approach is to listen extensively to somebody that does it, on your instrument, and try to copy the feel.

    Emotion in playing is even more inchoate. I'm not even sure we'd all agree on who plays with emotion and who doesn't.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu

    Emotion in playing is overrated anyway. It's ok to feel something when I'm playing, but to try and push an emotion on the listener, it can be so contrived. I never set out to make anybody "feel" anything in particular when I play. I don't like my music telling me what to feel.

    Generally when guitarists say a player is "emotional," they bend some notes, maybe make a good face when they do it

  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    There are some things in music which can't be written down. Time feel is one of them. I realized it first with regard to samba.

    The feel is uneven. This has been proven by recordings of Baterias, then analyzed by juxtaposing a metronome over the frequency graph. The 16th note pulse does not line up.

    But that's not why it can't be written. Rather, that's because the alignment, or lack thereof, is different at every tempo.

    Same for ride cymbal in swing. More than one way to do it and the precise timing depends on the tempo.

    If you see a chart that says, "play with emotion", do you change what you play? Can you write down the difference?
    What about "play with energy?"

    So, "play with great time feel and strong emotion" can't really be notated. And that means it can't be taught based on where the note falls no matter how finely you subdivide. Because it will fall differently at a different tempo.

    I think it has to be felt. Preferably, you hear it when you're young enough to learn it without the analog to a foreign language learned too late.

    Some players play every note with energy and great time feel. Reg plays like that. Seems ,like it's his baseline. There are some things you can say to help somebody attain it, but, I think, the best approach is to listen extensively to somebody that does it, on your instrument, and try to copy the feel.

    Emotion in playing is even more inchoate. I'm not even sure we'd all agree on who plays with emotion and who doesn't.
    I agree with most of this. I do find two aspects very frustrating though. So I want to clarify what I mean

    1) screw the metronome or the grid or whatever as an arbiter of human time/feel. Also I don’t care about notation except as a record of basic rhythmic information. I’m also not interested in maths.

    That stuff can be useful, but every good player knows its imitations. micro rhythm in music is impossible to write down, and likely does not exactly meet mathematical relationships - BUT it is consistent. A good swinging drummer will be consistent as to where they place their upbeats.

    This consistency is vital in creating the feeling of the right ‘place’ or the pocket or whatever you choose to call it. It’s totally obvious when you think about it. (It’s also science. A very high level of consistency is actually measurable in the best: Art Blakey for instance. but it’s not a specific triplet ratio or whatever.)

    so this kind of very specific practice is not actually mathematical or opposed to feel. In fact it’s designed to develop the feel. A sense of where the pocket is. For instance, place a click on the last 16th, and you can adjust where that 16th sits relative to the beat to create different feels, but you can still work on consistency.

    Check out what Mark Guiliana, suggests, for instance.

    2) practicing with records and playing with other musicians is not enough if you don’t have this consistency. your perception could also be off- you could be thinking you are nailing it when you are not.

    So for a very basic example: If your perception is off you might mistake the second bar of a third surdo pattern as a triplet, for instance, as I did once. It’s up to teacher to tell you that it is not, and that’s where your perception advances.

    Great players can be adjusting their feel to make the music work, rather than calling you on your timing inaccuracies. Sometimes it is necessary to put your time under the microscope and it does help. A good example would be Emily Remler. Professional drummers, as I say, are mindful of this stuff.

    It was a Brazilian percussionist who said to me ‘no one has perfect time’ and ‘there are two types of musicians, those who work on their time, and those who don’t - and I know who I’d rather play with.’ This guy was unusual, and well known, for not just being a great percussionist,
    but being able to break it down and teach it. You can’t expect that from everyone, but just because many great musicians can’t break it down does not mean it cannot be broken down. Bosco taught me, and many others, this.

    And beyond that, many of my teachers understood this - many were drummers as well as guitarists - and it does help.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-27-2020 at 10:07 AM.

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Topic hijack.

    By popular demand, (well, one guy), here's another clip. Baden Powell tune called Berimbau.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-27-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    I find good time to be the most elusive thing about music, although I suspect that varies from one player to the next.

    Two helpful things:

    1. Play with the very best musicians you can. It's very hard to play with good time if the rest of the rhythm section is wavering.
    My groups have hired some world class pros for group lessons -- sometimes turning out to be no more than the opportunity to play with a world class player. On one occasion we hired both a bassist and a drummer together.

    2. Record yourself and critique mercilessly. Over time, your ability to perceive the problems will improve. That will create a pathway for remediation.

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I find good time to be the most elusive thing about music, although I suspect that varies from one player to the next.

    Two helpful things:

    1. Play with the very best musicians you can. It's very hard to play with good time if the rest of the rhythm section is wavering.
    My groups have hired some world class pros for group lessons -- sometimes turning out to be no more than the opportunity to play with a world class player. On one occasion we hired both a bassist and a drummer together.

    2. Record yourself and critique mercilessly. Over time, your ability to perceive the problems will improve. That will create a pathway for remediation.
    This is a good video


  21. #95

    User Info Menu


  22. #96

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Lol

    (TBF his playing wasn’t very emotional.)

  23. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Thanks for this. I chuckled out loud and I literally haven’t smiled in months.

  24. #98

    User Info Menu

    Yea Thanks jazznylon... that was great Timing.

    Yea rp love that stuff... almost like old Tanya Maria. thanks...

    here's a real slow arrangement of DC farewell... pretty old, one of the many bands from old days, 74.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  25. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea Thanks jazznylon... that was great Timing.

    Yea rp love that stuff... almost like old Tanya Maria. thanks...

    here's a real slow arrangement of DC farewell... pretty old, one of the many bands from old days, 74.
    Nice! In the pocket and a cool tune.