The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I remember back in the day making a real effort to stop playing all double time on ballads. Once I got slow eighth note swing down, my time feel at other tempos skyrocketed.

    Somehow recently I started thinking, "I wonder how far I can take this?"

    How slow can you guys play locked into the upbeat, and placing your downbeat consistently in your preferred spot?

    I've been messing around with this. I tap my foot on the actual downbeat and play my eighth notes. At absurdly slow tempos it was really interesting to see where my downbeats actually land.

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  3. #2

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    I like to try and feel the 6 on 4 at really slow tempos.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I like to try and feel the 6 on 4 at really slow tempos.
    me too, this is more of an exercise/challenge.

  5. #4

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    Well, I'll be trying tonight or tommorrow and reporting back. I imagine I will be humbled.

  6. #5
    Don't forget to tap your foot on the downbeat so you can see where your downbeat is in relation; if that makes sense.

  7. #6

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    Quite slow, but you don't want to swing too slow anyway.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Quite slow, but you don't want to swing too slow anyway.
    Do you place your downbeats on or behind the beat (in general)?

  9. #8

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    I remember seeing the drummer Martin Drew in London (in a pub called The Bull's Head) demonstrating the most stupendous in the pocket swing groove at 50bpm (I checked it as he was playing). This was in the 70s and it has stayed with me since then. He was eventually hired by Oscar Peterson.

  10. #9
    joelf Guest
    You let time pass.

    That's all...

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    Do you place your downbeats on or behind the beat (in general)?
    On really slow tunes, I'm definitely hanging back...

    Actually, I think one of the hardest things to do on a slow tune is play "straight" and not sound unbelievably square.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    On really slow tunes, I'm definitely hanging back...

    Actually, I think one of the hardest things to do on a slow tune is play "straight" and not sound unbelievably square.
    Right, maybe that's why it's such a good exercise for me because I go for even eighths, which is probably close to as far behind the beat as possible without changing the rhythm.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    You let time pass.

    That's all...
    Thanks for this...

  14. #13

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    louie A- muggles



    cheers

  15. #14
    I’m not looking for tips, it was an idea to challenge guys who can already swing and maybe have a conversation.

    Videos were cool, thanks.

  16. #15

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    "Lugubrious." An adjective that is not, shall we say, overused. Love it.

  17. #16

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    If you imagine your notes and their duration like sticks, you can "lay them down" into the rhythm different ways.

    What I mean is how it feels when you place them; "square", tight, Muzak style sounds tend to come from a focus and feeling of placing the sticks "head first" where their duration is initiated.

    head first feels like x---> x-> x-> x------> (focus on the "X" at the beginning)

    feet first feels like >---x >-x >-x >------x (focus on the "X" at the ending)

    Of course you actually mechanically do start notes at their "head first end", but if you can play them as if you are imagining "laying them down" feet first with a focus on the end of the note, you can overcome the square sound.

    Sax, trumpet, violin... breath and bow instruments' owners already do this instinctively (they may be described as having "a fat beat width"); pianist a little in terms of how to release notes... guitarists have to learn to not focus so much on the attack of their notes. In general it may seem to us that after the note is started it is a done deal, but trying to get the feeling of placing it foot first goes a long way toward unconsciously modifying one's hands and rhythm.

    Beat width when playing up tempo naturally expands with respect to the pace; to the point of this thread, it is when the tempo slows down that those with a fat beat width begin to show, maintaining swing and other good things...

  18. #17
    Beat width when playing up tempo naturally expands with respect to the pace; to the point of this thread, it is when the tempo slows down that those with a fat beat width begin to show, maintaining swing and other good things...[/QUOTE]

    I like the term “beat width.” Is the meaning something close to: The width between the beat where everyone taps their foot, and where the soloist actually plays the down beat?

    Because that’s what I’m interested in Discussing

  19. #18

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    pn...love your intricate breakdown...understood..and right!...but ultimately...it's timing is everything

    either it grooves or it don't...

    no matter what kind of music...or tempo...from js bach to t monk

    cheers

  20. #19

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    Gigged this chart last fall.


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    Beat width when playing up tempo naturally expands with respect to the pace; to the point of this thread, it is when the tempo slows down that those with a fat beat width begin to show, maintaining swing and other good things...
    I like the term “beat width.” Is the meaning something close to: The width between the beat where everyone taps their foot, and where the soloist actually plays the down beat?

    Because that’s what I’m interested in Discussing[/QUOTE]

    i presume you are familiar with those two papers that came out re:swing and the theory of upbeat synchronisation that was partly supported by the second paper? I’ll dig out the ref if not.

    So apparently your beat tends to lag less as you approach the end of a phrase and your inequality increases which is interesting. This was observed in Freddie Hubbard.

    anyway beat placement is a funny one. I suspect it depends on accentuation. I don’t think if you accent a quarter note or a downbeat accent it should ever be behind the beat. OTOH if you are playing a string of 8ths you lay back a lot more. There’s ebb and flow.

    I wonder the problem with playing a high swing inequality with a locked in downbeat is that you aren’t feeling the upbeats, not that you need to address the lag of your downbeats. Certainly learning to feel upbeats more independently and accurately is a very important part of learning.

  22. #21

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    Also there’s the old Tristano school thing of practicing in single time 60-80 bpm. Speeding the recording up is fun. Usually it sounds very corny time wise for me haha

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like the term “beat width.” Is the meaning something close to: The width between the beat where everyone taps their foot, and where the soloist actually plays the down beat?

    Because that’s what I’m interested in Discussing
    i presume you are familiar with those two papers that came out re:swing and the theory of upbeat synchronisation that was partly supported by the second paper? I’ll dig out the ref if not.

    So apparently your beat tends to lag less as you approach the end of a phrase and your inequality increases which is interesting. This was observed in Freddie Hubbard.

    anyway beat placement is a funny one. I suspect it depends on accentuation. I don’t think if you accent a quarter note or a downbeat accent it should ever be behind the beat. OTOH if you are playing a string of 8ths you lay back a lot more. There’s ebb and flow.

    I wonder the problem with playing a high swing inequality with a locked in downbeat is that you aren’t feeling the upbeats, not that you need to address the lag of your downbeats. Certainly learning to feel upbeats more independently and accurately is a very important part of learning.[/QUOTE] VERY interested to see those resources.
    Strings of eighths is what I meant to refer to in my OP. Not that I would hardly do that at slow tempos, it’s just like...an interesting thing.
    What I found playing at these crawling tempos (although, I don’t know why I didn’t think of recording and slowing down) is for quarter notes I’m right on the beat, and my triplets start and stop exactly on the beat, and when I go into my eighth line it has like this contrasting pull.

  24. #23
    So my triplets are really snappy. Anyone stretch out triplets?

    I hope beaumont reports back with results.

  25. #24
    Also, does anyone else hate Love for Sale? I will puke if I ever have to play it again.

  26. #25
    Before I abandon this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    1.) i presume you are familiar with those two papers that came out re:swing and the theory of upbeat synchronisation that was partly supported by the second paper? I’ll dig out the ref if not.

    2.) So apparently your beat tends to lag less as you approach the end of a phrase and your inequality increases which is interesting. This was observed in Freddie Hubbard.

    3.) I wonder the problem with playing a high swing inequality with a locked in downbeat is that you aren’t feeling the upbeats, not that you need to address the lag of your downbeats. Certainly learning to feel upbeats more independently and accurately is a very important part of learning.
    1. Let me know if those papers show up. I did find this video. Skip to 4:40 for most applicable part.


    2. That's funny they used Freddie Hubbard as an example in the paper and so did the video. It is exactly what I'm talking about, and then playing slower than ballad tempo to challenge ourselves.

    3. I don't teach, but I do play with a number of musicians at an earlier stage in their jazz development than me. I cannot for the life of me explain that swing isn't ding dinga ding, even if they feel locked in doing that. And I think you are right, I don't think they can feel the swung upbeat without playing the downbeat.