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  1. #51

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    Just found this slow blues tune... was on my phone. Can't remember from where. I'm pretty sure I was just subbing.
    Around mm60. Nothing special, made sure not to take longer solo than bands leader.... and stay simple, but at the end, went to tritone sub chord, bass player caught it.

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  3. #52

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    Slow samba.
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  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Just found this slow blues tune... was on my phone. Can't remember from where. I'm pretty sure I was just subbing.
    Around mm60. Nothing special, made sure not to take longer solo than bands leader.... and stay simple, but at the end, went to tritone sub chord, bass player caught it.
    Nice. I never got to play with a mando player at that level, usually they are just starting jazz or only a couple years in coming from other styles.

  5. #54

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    Hey rp... cool tune... loved the 1st part... Maybe we'll get together again after the....

  6. #55

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    Thanks corpse... Tom's a world class or at least use to be world touring Bluegrass player... that bassist toured with the Like a Virgin Madonna tour... He's been playing jazz for 10 years or so. I got a chance to play with Mr Dawg years back... still hang with the band sometimes. Matt the crazy flutist or Flautist and family are lifelong friends.
    Just to be clear... the tune and performance... isn't much besides being SLOW

  7. #56
    I am really loving all of these new videos, reg! Please post many as you can . Love seeing them. There's one in particular which was online a few years ago which seems to have disappeared, not one that you posted yourself. It was a video of large ensemble with horns with your organist you sometimes play with, Larkin tune. Anyway, I thought it was really cool because it was a pretty good size group with multiple horns etc. , but featured the guitarist as one of the only couple of solos I think. Love to see reg in the wild.

  8. #57
    To the original OP - the idea of swinging versus just going doubletime at really slow tempos - I think it's an interesting conversation. I think there are multiple layers for talking about it.

    Is everyone in the group somewhat limiting to swing eights? (Very often the drummer is somewhat subdividing more.) If it's not doubletime, is it naturally going to default more to 12/8? At the very least, I think most real players are going to at least default to HEARING more 12/8. Probably going to be implied in the slurs, grace notes , releases etc. etc.

    I have found personally that the more subdivision I hear internally, the fatter and crisper upper levels are. The unintended consequence of working more on double time slow feels and slow 12/8 blues is that my quarter notes and eight notes at ALL tempos sound better and swing harder. I think it's mostly the releases. Releases , grace notes , slides and all those other articulations are basically heard subconsciously until you've done some of the work yourself. Negative space is berry difficult to hear otherwise.

    There are also degrees to which individual members of great ensembles are doing certain levels of this all at the same time. I listen to lot of the same recordings of Keith Jarrett trio on a weekly basis. (I'll confess to this being my default nap music, but it really helps with analyzing something over months and especially years). Anyway, one thing they do really well is playing doubletime over the entire form very slowly on ballads. At the beginning of the tune, it's mostly 100% masked, with subtle hints in microscopic phrasing in places. It's mostly just implied by the fact that it's straight 8ths , but even THOSE are disguised by an abundance of quarter and 8th-note-triplet subdivisions.

    Anyway, usually begins with the drummer somewhat pushing at the ends of phrases and the other two giving in or pushing off by keeping things more subdued . Then, a second chorus maybe the drummer is more explicitly playing double time, while the keyboard and bass are still basically disguising and laying back on a more straightahead slow-four. There are degrees to which these are done more at the end of phrases only, compared to later where everyone's just locking into the same feel.

    Sometimes, they finish out the tune with everyone locked in, full ahead doubletime feel. Other times there's an arc of going back to the feel from the beginning, closing out with the intro feel. Anyway, my point is that all of those multiple layers, across the form, between players etc. etc., are also possible with a 12/8 /swing feel. there may be an important distinction between what is "heard" versus what is explicitly played.

    I wonder if great players are ever "not hearing" smaller subdivisions, regardless of what feel they're playing on top explicitly?

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey rp... cool tune... loved the 1st part... Maybe we'll get together again after the....
    Looking forward to that!

    That tune is by Aecio Flavio, a Brazilian. His most famous tune is probably this one:

    Leny Andrade

    Some Bay Area folks.

    As far as I know, he's not super well-known, but he wrote some good tunes.

  10. #59

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    Tom can play!

    His solos speak for themselves. Melodic, rhythmic and you can feel them.

    I'll add that he has great time feel on everything he plays. Worth paying attention to the way he comps.

  11. #60

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    If you are thinking about locking into the upbeat, you are not, as Miles said, "swinging." "Swinging" is about the soul you put into your playing and how that is interpreted in the sound. It isn't just about how when you strike an eighth-note and when you release that note (if you are, for example playing an eighth-note for exactly an eighth note, you are not "swinging").

    Listen to almost any NON-pro jazz guitarist on YT, then listen to a pro and you will hear the difference. They play all of the same notes in one measure, but it sounds better.

  12. #61

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    People get the path confused with the destination.

    Look just go and talk to drummer and ask what they practice. Guitar players often come out with stuff like the last post, which is all true but utterly unhelpful.

    Professionals sound professional because they sweat the details.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffy Pratt
    Was gonna post this. How slow you can swing and how slow Basie can swing are two different questions. But of slow tunes, nothing swings harder than this. It’s like magic.
    A little trivia:

    The story goes that Neil Hefti, who wrote Lil' Darling and the arrangement of it, originally intended it to be played medium swing. On a rehearsal, Marshall Royal was working through the arrangement with the band as per Hefti's intentions while Basie was sitting relaxed and absentminded in a corner, preoccupied with the latest copy of some horse race magazine. After a long time he got up, clapped his hands and said: "I don't know, maybe we should try this as a ballad". And Lil' Darling as we know it was born. But perhaps, after all, this story is just - well, a story.

  14. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    To the original OP - the idea of swinging versus just going doubletime at really slow tempos - I think it's an interesting conversation. I think there are multiple layers for talking about it.

    Is everyone in the group somewhat limiting to swing eights? (Very often the drummer is somewhat subdividing more.) If it's not doubletime, is it naturally going to default more to 12/8? At the very least, I think most real players are going to at least default to HEARING more 12/8. Probably going to be implied in the slurs, grace notes , releases etc. etc.
    The conversation has ventured away from what I was trying to get at, but that's fine. For me, originally, it was an exercise to see if my swing feel "held up" at slow tempos (how exact is it? How much does it fluctuate?). It was a challenge to myself. I wanted to see what was happening. I'm talking like 50 and under, not any kind of performance tempos. Try to take it to 30. If subdividing helps, that's cool. I don't know how to subdivide in a way to get the feel I like. I'm not trying to learn how to swing, I'm trying to look into what I'm doing when I swing.

    I think 6 on ballads. But it doesn't have to do with this really. Although we can talk about it here, it's just not that interesting to me. It's ok, I'm laid back.

    What I do is play my stock bebop phrases, the one's I've been playing forever and could play in my sleep. Strings of 8th notes and a few triplets. It sounds ridiculous. Looking back, a fine approach would just be to slow down a recording of yourself at a normal tempo. It might not sound as great as you think.

  15. #64

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    People like ballads because they get to play fast

  16. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    People like ballads because they get to play fast
    That's cool to talk about too, but you guys do understand I wasn't trying to talk about playing ballads right? But, definitely talk about whatever, I just am not quite sure anyone is quite getting it. Also could be possible the OP wasn't interesting and we've moved onto stuff that's more interesting for the group.

  17. #66

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    Hey Rp... thanks, yea met Mary through Terrence few years back... and then Marcos from way back. Yea all friends, Scotty, Erik

    Who was on gig... the tempo thing LOL

    Don't know Horta... but dig his playing, more of a pop thing... but then what is Brazilian.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    That's cool to talk about too, but you guys do understand I wasn't trying to talk about playing ballads right? But, definitely talk about whatever, I just am not quite sure anyone is quite getting it. Also could be possible the OP wasn't interesting and we've moved onto stuff that's more interesting for the group.
    As I say, single time improv at 60-80bpm is a Tristano school thing. Dave Cliff roasted me on Moment's Notice at 60bpm.

    It's fun to record slow and speed it up. I'm going to do that now.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    As I say, single time improv at 60-80bpm is a Tristano school thing.
    I didn't know about Tristano, but that is what I did that worked really well for me years ago. So recently I was wondering about taking it further... like 30 bpm.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    People get the path confused with the destination.

    Look just go and talk to drummer and ask what they practice. Guitar players often come out with stuff like the last post, which is all true but utterly unhelpful.

    Professionals sound professional because they sweat the details.
    My post is very helpful as long as it doesn't offend you.

  21. #70

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    Had a slow go at "Alone Together" this week (I think this is 62bpm?)

    I don't play a lot of straight 8ths. In general, I don't.

    Gonna try some slower stuff. This is fun.


  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Gainly
    I remember seeing the drummer Martin Drew in London (in a pub called The Bull's Head) demonstrating the most stupendous in the pocket swing groove at 50bpm (I checked it as he was playing). This was in the 70s and it has stayed with me since then. He was eventually hired by Oscar Peterson.
    I frequently used to find myself watching Martin Drew (& not the name American star I'd gone to see) when he was Ronnie Scott's house drummer...

    Great talent..

  23. #72

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    I see 'slow', like beauty, is beginning to be in the eye of the beholder... I think the OP said, what, 50 or something?

    But I'll say it again - personally I wouldn't try to swing at a very, very slow pace, it's a contradiction in terms unless you double (or quadruple) up on the time.

    Dum.........de.........dum.........de.........dum. ........de......... I mean, it's not moosicle, is it?

  24. #73

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    Alone, six feet apart


    Quite right, blues can be done very slow.

  25. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I see 'slow', like beauty, is beginning to be in the eye of the beholder... I think the OP said, what, 50 or something?

    But I'll say it again - personally I wouldn't try to swing at a very, very slow pace, it's a contradiction in terms unless you double (or quadruple) up on the time.

    Dum.........de.........dum.........de.........dum. ........de......... I mean, it's not moosicle, is it?
    I'll leave it alone after this but:
    1. I'm not talking about performance tempos. Or approaching ballads.
    2. Dum de dum de dum de dum doesn't sound good at any tempo. It also wouldn't be a challenge to play even at the slowest tempo because you are locking in each note.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    1. I'm not talking about performance tempos.
    But you keep saying 50 and, several times more recently, 30. No question about it.

    I'm obviously missing something.

  27. #76

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    This is about 50, give or take. Definitely swings.


  28. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But you keep saying 50 and, several times more recently, 30. No question about it.

    I'm obviously missing something.
    Maybe I am too, not sure. Maybe my definitions are different?

    Performance tempo- a tempo I would play at a gig.

    And if I did play a tune at a gig that slow, I wouldn't be playing many 8th notes. It's something for the woodshed.

    Swing- locked into the upbeat for the most part for groove, different placements of downbeat for a swing effect. I don't consider dum de dum de dum for more than a few notes swinging. I don't have a definition for swinging triplets, but mine are actually locked into the downbeat which gives me a push and pull between triplet and 8ths.

  29. #78

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    Quite, re that Oscar vid. One wouldn't just keep up a mindless dum-de-dum, it would be all kinds of straight/swung effects.

    Plus the blues feel, of course, always works :-)

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
    My post is very helpful as long as it doesn't offend you.
    maybe logically it might still be helpful even if it did offend me? But I’m not offended and it’s not helpful either.

    so I’ll put the ball in your court - How do you feel a musician should work on their swing feel and general time/feel?

  31. #80

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    Ok so one quote I do find useful is Louis Armstrong

    ‘swing is about getting the notes in the right place.’

    really refining a sense of time and swing is about being able to discern accurately and precisely the rhythm you are trying to play. That includes, and this is most difficult for most people; the negative space, including the endings of notes, rests and so on.

    It’s not about ‘feeling the groove’ or ‘playing with soul.’ So why do I say this?

    Well, how many times have we thought we were really feeling it and listened back to recordings only to find we were rushing, over articulating or pushing the tempo. I’m sure the classical guys going dum de dum de square as all fuck think they’re really swinging.

    OTOH ever listened back to a gig you thought was flat and cold only to realise it was a lot more happening than you thought?

    Swing for the audience is emotional, physical connection. For the musician it is perception, awareness and good technique. Be exciting, not excited. Don’t try to be on stage and in the audience. You don’t get to enjoy your own music in that way.

    I know this is probably hard for fans to realise. They would like to think the musicians feel the same way they do.

    that’s not to say it’s cold or intellectual, but it’s not about putting emotion into the music. Emotion emerges from doing the music right .

    that’s what I’ve learned.....

  32. #81
    I don't even have a soul and I swing just fine.

  33. #82

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    Xtian -

    it’s not about putting emotion into the music. Emotion emerges from doing the music right
    Can't go with that. Doing it right means you won't get told to do it again with feeling :-)

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Xtian -



    Can't go with that. Doing it right means you won't get told to do it again with feeling :-)
    I’ve literally never been told that lol :-)

    (There’s quite a few singers I’d like to do it again with less feeling. I’m sure you know the ones I mean.)

    anyway on sessions people mostly want the guitar to be in time.

  35. #84
    Eh and Ragman, Does "feeling" and "soul" routinely get brought up at gigs and rehearsals for you?

  36. #85

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    You can always do the blues face if pushed.

  37. #86

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    Going slower...even try to play some straight 8ths in here.


  38. #87
    Nice playing, Beaumont. I hope you continue posting and slowing down and seeing where things start breaking down. Make sure you keep some straight eighths in there as that’s what the real challenge is as things get ridiculously slow imo.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by corpse
    Eh and Ragman, Does "feeling" and "soul" routinely get brought up at gigs and rehearsals for you?
    Never, although there was the infamous gig in a pub once where some girl walked in and pouted 'So where's the party?'.

    Can't remember what I said but I'm sure it was very helpful

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ok so one quote I do find useful is Louis Armstrong
    ..
    There are some things in music which can't be written down. Time feel is one of them. I realized it first with regard to samba.

    The feel is uneven. This has been proven by recordings of Baterias, then analyzed by juxtaposing a metronome over the frequency graph. The 16th note pulse does not line up.

    But that's not why it can't be written. Rather, that's because the alignment, or lack thereof, is different at every tempo.

    Same for ride cymbal in swing. More than one way to do it and the precise timing depends on the tempo.

    If you see a chart that says, "play with emotion", do you change what you play? Can you write down the difference?
    What about "play with energy?"

    So, "play with great time feel and strong emotion" can't really be notated. And that means it can't be taught based on where the note falls no matter how finely you subdivide. Because it will fall differently at a different tempo.

    I think it has to be felt. Preferably, you hear it when you're young enough to learn it without the analog to a foreign language learned too late.

    Some players play every note with energy and great time feel. Reg plays like that. Seems ,like it's his baseline. There are some things you can say to help somebody attain it, but, I think, the best approach is to listen extensively to somebody that does it, on your instrument, and try to copy the feel.

    Emotion in playing is even more inchoate. I'm not even sure we'd all agree on who plays with emotion and who doesn't.

  41. #90

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    Emotion in playing is overrated anyway. It's ok to feel something when I'm playing, but to try and push an emotion on the listener, it can be so contrived. I never set out to make anybody "feel" anything in particular when I play. I don't like my music telling me what to feel.

    Generally when guitarists say a player is "emotional," they bend some notes, maybe make a good face when they do it

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    There are some things in music which can't be written down. Time feel is one of them. I realized it first with regard to samba.

    The feel is uneven. This has been proven by recordings of Baterias, then analyzed by juxtaposing a metronome over the frequency graph. The 16th note pulse does not line up.

    But that's not why it can't be written. Rather, that's because the alignment, or lack thereof, is different at every tempo.

    Same for ride cymbal in swing. More than one way to do it and the precise timing depends on the tempo.

    If you see a chart that says, "play with emotion", do you change what you play? Can you write down the difference?
    What about "play with energy?"

    So, "play with great time feel and strong emotion" can't really be notated. And that means it can't be taught based on where the note falls no matter how finely you subdivide. Because it will fall differently at a different tempo.

    I think it has to be felt. Preferably, you hear it when you're young enough to learn it without the analog to a foreign language learned too late.

    Some players play every note with energy and great time feel. Reg plays like that. Seems ,like it's his baseline. There are some things you can say to help somebody attain it, but, I think, the best approach is to listen extensively to somebody that does it, on your instrument, and try to copy the feel.

    Emotion in playing is even more inchoate. I'm not even sure we'd all agree on who plays with emotion and who doesn't.
    I agree with most of this. I do find two aspects very frustrating though. So I want to clarify what I mean

    1) screw the metronome or the grid or whatever as an arbiter of human time/feel. Also I don’t care about notation except as a record of basic rhythmic information. I’m also not interested in maths.

    That stuff can be useful, but every good player knows its imitations. micro rhythm in music is impossible to write down, and likely does not exactly meet mathematical relationships - BUT it is consistent. A good swinging drummer will be consistent as to where they place their upbeats.

    This consistency is vital in creating the feeling of the right ‘place’ or the pocket or whatever you choose to call it. It’s totally obvious when you think about it. (It’s also science. A very high level of consistency is actually measurable in the best: Art Blakey for instance. but it’s not a specific triplet ratio or whatever.)

    so this kind of very specific practice is not actually mathematical or opposed to feel. In fact it’s designed to develop the feel. A sense of where the pocket is. For instance, place a click on the last 16th, and you can adjust where that 16th sits relative to the beat to create different feels, but you can still work on consistency.

    Check out what Mark Guiliana, suggests, for instance.

    2) practicing with records and playing with other musicians is not enough if you don’t have this consistency. your perception could also be off- you could be thinking you are nailing it when you are not.

    So for a very basic example: If your perception is off you might mistake the second bar of a third surdo pattern as a triplet, for instance, as I did once. It’s up to teacher to tell you that it is not, and that’s where your perception advances.

    Great players can be adjusting their feel to make the music work, rather than calling you on your timing inaccuracies. Sometimes it is necessary to put your time under the microscope and it does help. A good example would be Emily Remler. Professional drummers, as I say, are mindful of this stuff.

    It was a Brazilian percussionist who said to me ‘no one has perfect time’ and ‘there are two types of musicians, those who work on their time, and those who don’t - and I know who I’d rather play with.’ This guy was unusual, and well known, for not just being a great percussionist,
    but being able to break it down and teach it. You can’t expect that from everyone, but just because many great musicians can’t break it down does not mean it cannot be broken down. Bosco taught me, and many others, this.

    And beyond that, many of my teachers understood this - many were drummers as well as guitarists - and it does help.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-27-2020 at 10:07 AM.

  43. #92

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    Topic hijack.

    By popular demand, (well, one guy), here's another clip. Baden Powell tune called Berimbau.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-27-2020 at 07:15 PM.

  44. #93

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    I find good time to be the most elusive thing about music, although I suspect that varies from one player to the next.

    Two helpful things:

    1. Play with the very best musicians you can. It's very hard to play with good time if the rest of the rhythm section is wavering.
    My groups have hired some world class pros for group lessons -- sometimes turning out to be no more than the opportunity to play with a world class player. On one occasion we hired both a bassist and a drummer together.

    2. Record yourself and critique mercilessly. Over time, your ability to perceive the problems will improve. That will create a pathway for remediation.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I find good time to be the most elusive thing about music, although I suspect that varies from one player to the next.

    Two helpful things:

    1. Play with the very best musicians you can. It's very hard to play with good time if the rest of the rhythm section is wavering.
    My groups have hired some world class pros for group lessons -- sometimes turning out to be no more than the opportunity to play with a world class player. On one occasion we hired both a bassist and a drummer together.

    2. Record yourself and critique mercilessly. Over time, your ability to perceive the problems will improve. That will create a pathway for remediation.
    This is a good video


  46. #95

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  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Lol

    (TBF his playing wasn’t very emotional.)

  48. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Thanks for this. I chuckled out loud and I literally haven’t smiled in months.

  49. #98

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    Yea Thanks jazznylon... that was great Timing.

    Yea rp love that stuff... almost like old Tanya Maria. thanks...

    here's a real slow arrangement of DC farewell... pretty old, one of the many bands from old days, 74.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea Thanks jazznylon... that was great Timing.

    Yea rp love that stuff... almost like old Tanya Maria. thanks...

    here's a real slow arrangement of DC farewell... pretty old, one of the many bands from old days, 74.
    Nice! In the pocket and a cool tune.