The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 71
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I’ve been trying to play the Donna Lee head along with Bird’s Savoy recording for months but can’t get it up to speed. Am I using an impractical fingering or am I just not fast enough yet? Head starts at 1:38

    Last edited by Peterson; 12-07-2019 at 12:29 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    It doesn’t look like a terrible fingering, here’s mine (there was a good thread on this not too long ago, it’s from that thread, some good stuff in there), maybe it will help.


  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Looks more like your picking might be slowing you down. Your fingerings seem to work well enough. But the picking is all over the place. It looks and sounds smooth enough, but is probably memorized...

    Do you work or have picking studies that use string groups, jumps etc... economy picking tends to create that noodle sound. Turn up the tone so you'll hear how your picking accents what your playing.

    While working on material. tunes, etc... slow and getting up to speed does eventually work.... but you end up getting better at using slow technique to play fast tempo music. They're different.... anything works at slower tempo. I like your playing, left hand looks smooth and easy... but maybe check out right hand picking.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Yeah, I'm with Reg...your left hand is a lot more logical than my way.

    Heres me, almost getting it. You can see my picking's a big ol mess, so maybe just give it time. This is from a few weeks ago, I'm cleaner now but not at this tempo quite yet.


  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I think the first issue is in the right hand.

    If you are an alternate picker, primarily, you can get into trouble with passages that require going from a thinner string to a thicker one (or two).
    At that point, you have to refinger the left hand to avoid the picking problem.

    I'm not an economy picker, but my understanding is that they don't have this issue in the same way. What follows here is more about alternate picking.

    Some people, perhaps more the economy pickers, believe that the key to speed is to start slowly and gradually increase the tempo.

    Warren Nunes, an alternate picking master, taught what he called "speed technique". This was a combination of picking and fingering that allowed high speed playing. The fingerings were often not obvious, relying on quick shifts of position, slides and pulloffs. All designed to avoid difficult picking by putting consecutive notes on a single string to allow some notes to be slid or pulled-off to provide a 16th rest to reposition the pick.

    Increasing speed became an issue of identifying bottlenecks and refingering the left hand to make the picking easier. Typically, when you're really got a good solution, it becomes possible to play the passage effortlessly at any speed. Donna Lee, of course, presents a series of problems of this type. It can seem impossible, but then you see somebody do it.

    So for example, near the beginning of Donna Lee, there is an A followed by a lower C. This requires a string skip and is for some (all?) an awkward picking move. The solution is, for me, is to slide into the A from the Bb just before it. This works either in the second position or the 7th. That slide gives you time to reposition the pick. For me, this is the key to increasing speed. There are multiple places where this matters, sometimes the slide is with the first finger, sometimes the fourth finger.

    Another issue is stretching or shifting. For example, after that low C, the next note is an Eb. In my fingering, at the second fret, the Bb to A slide, executed with the first finger, means that I fret the C with the second finger (first finger is also possible, but requires playing the A and C on consecutive 16ths on different strings with the same finger - I think Jimmy Bruno may use this fingering - successfully - but I find it harder than the alternative). So, if you play the C with the second finger you play the Eb on the same string with the 4th finger. That means you have to stretch or move your hand up the neck. I find it easiest to move the hand. You can get this into one smooth motion. At that point, you're past another bottleneck. Position shifting in this manner can be executed very quickly and is the solution to a lot of problems.

    In bar 7 the line is ascending C Eb G Bb. That lays perfectly well in the 3rd position, among other places. But, for me to get the line up to speed I play C Eb on the 5th string and G Bb on the fourth string. First finger, fourth finger in each case. So, as you fret the Eb with your fourth finger, the idea is to be moving your hand along the neck towards the bridge. It's subtle. Your hand is moving even as your finger holds down the Eb. By the time you have to play the G you're just about there. And, the next note, Ab, is under your second finger.

    I once read an analysis of a short passage of a classical piece that went on for pages like this. Not just how to grab the notes but also how to stop the other strings from unwanted vibration. Speed technique can be a similar kind of drilling down beneath the weeds.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-07-2019 at 07:20 PM.

  7. #6
    Wow, I haven’t posted much here and first I must say I’m impressed with how kind and eager to help you all are! Thanks!

    I don’t think I’ve ever done a picking study and I don’t even know what economy picking means. I just try to do down strokes on down beats whenever possible. I will certainly look into all of your tips and ideas! Thanks again!

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I think you have to find the fingering that works best for you if speed is your main consideration. I thing Frank Vignola said there's an infinite number of fingerings for Parker heads. But the one that works for your particular strengths is the one for you. I've been working on this tune for over ten years and finally found the one for me. But I'm still messing it with it. Check out Mimi Fox's and Frank's solo versions. Great tune that we all should work on.
    Last edited by jaco; 12-07-2019 at 08:15 PM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    The right one is the one that works for you.


  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Hm, I posted this already earlier today, but now it's missing. hope it was not removed by some moderator, or whatever.
    I will try to repeat.

    Any fingering is good enough, if it brings you to where you think t should. if it does not, I think you should chose particular way for left hand and for right hand and stick to it for a while. Then change and do that for a while. You can go for uniformity, position playing, switching positions, alternate, economy ... Then, you combine the most efficient approaches.

    This is from couple of years ago, when I was first learning it. Picking is straight alternate, left hand is switching positions for uniformity of fingerings. Tempo is 210bpm which is close to original release recording.
    Also, I did it both in usual register and octave above.

    Then I repeat it at 240 bpm, which was way to fast for me, back then at least it was.


  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    OK... like I said any thing can work... some just work better. Try playing the head in a few different keys.... how's Eb.

    If you need to work out how your fingering the melody... you need work with with your fingering approach, if you can't get the picking together, well you need to work with your picking etc...

    Again my point is simple... if you need to work out fingerings or picking.... You don't have a system together.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    I apologize for being short... but it's not complicated. You sound like good player... and are on your way, but playing jazz requires REALLY GOOD TECHNIQUE. You can't fake it. It's totally cool to learn jazz tunes and have fun playing them etc... but to play at the speed and in the style of jazz.... technique is required.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Let me ask this...

    Why is it important for you to play this song at tempo? It seems like you've gotten more out of this song than half the youtubers who only play the head and never improvise on the changes. What percent of your practice time do you dedicate to increasing your speed on this particular song? I personally have very limited practice time so when I got it close to 200 bpm I started spending more of my "Donna Lee time" on improvising, and spending my overall guitar time on other tunes.

    I'm no pro and don't have jazz friends to play with, but from what I read from others, this tune is rarely ever called out in group settings.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    What I'm getting at in the above post is the law of diminishing returns... If it takes an hour a day for 3 more weeks to get this head up to tempo is that going to make you a better a musician than learning 5 more tunes? Would you be better off copping more of birds solo licks on this tune (played slower) or playing this head faster? Just food for thought.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    start @ 5:30

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    I've been at jams when it's been called, but usually that's not what happens.

    For some reason, every now and then, someone will start playing the head at full speed and every player in the room will join in -- playing the melody. Just the one chorus, everybody laughs and moves on to another tune.

    After you notice that the 4 string bassist can play it, then, maybe you will not want to be left out next time, so you practice the head.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Looks more like your picking might be slowing you down. Your fingerings seem to work well enough. But the picking is all over the place. It looks and sounds smooth enough, but is probably memorized...

    Do you work or have picking studies that use string groups, jumps etc... economy picking tends to create that noodle sound. Turn up the tone so you'll hear how your picking accents what your playing.
    Hi Reg,
    I'm not the original poster, but picking is a problem of mine I've been working on lately. Do you have a reference for picking studies that you'd recommend? Thanks for all you do here!

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Dolphy
    What I'm getting at in the above post is the law of diminishing returns... If it takes an hour a day for 3 more weeks to get this head up to tempo is that going to make you a better a musician than learning 5 more tunes? Would you be better off copping more of birds solo licks on this tune (played slower) or playing this head faster? Just food for thought.
    Well, if it helps somebody get their picking together, it's totally worth it.

    I mean, I don't know why you can't do 'em all. I have limited practice time, and I still learn heads, learn songs, steal licks. It's not impossible.

    I think learning the head to Donna Lee and getting it to tempo is great practice. The head is just a bunch of bop licks anyway.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by dingusmingus
    Hi Reg,
    I'm not the original poster, but picking is a problem of mine I've been working on lately. Do you have a reference for picking studies that you'd recommend? Thanks for all you do here!
    I'll try and get some material today. I generally just used non musical arpeggios, scales and the old spider like things. I generally like to work on technical issues by themselves. The point is to get better not play cool heads and licks. I also like to play steady chromatic passages at fast tempos with different string movement and keep the accents steady. Also like to work on phrasing at up tempos. I don't think it's really that hard.

    I believe I've posted scales, arpeggios and string set arpeggio licks for all scales and chords. It's kind of the same thing... play two octave arpeggios in all positions then change the note pattern.... instead of Root being rhythmical reference, make the 3rd, 5th, 7th then extensions.
    Then maybe play interval patterns... in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths etc.. the more difficult and faster you play... the better and cleaner the picking needs to become.

    Personally part of becoming better at any aspect of playing generally includes going through the process of notating or writing out what your working on.... your creating a visual record and understanding... that isn't just on your guitar.

  20. #19
    I wanted to learn the tune to start building a bop vocabulary. After learning the melody I picked phrases I liked and tried to apply them on other tunes. I haven’t really worked much on getting it up to speed, I’ve focused more on fluidity. But I find it curious that this particular melody is so difficult to play fast. I think I can play Parker’s solo faster than the melody, it’s usually the other way around by a wide margin. I guess it reveals my technical weaknesses. I too would much appreciate tips on picking exercises.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Yea it's a long head. You might want to just stay in 3rd position for 1st 4 bars, then 5th for the rest. And try picking all the notes. And eventually not starring at fretboard.

    Get "articulations" together..... after you have the notes at whatever tempo you want. Eventually you'll be able to use fingerings to create articulations, feels or effect you want at whatever tempo you want. I mean bird tunes are generally up. 200 ++++

    Yea.. the other thing as someone mentioned above... playing the head is like playing the changes. I don't mean vanilla backing track changes ...Maybe...Abma7 Gb7/ C-7b5 F7B-7 / Bb-ma7.. etc... maybe all the notes aren't just embellishments, but that's a different subject.
    Getting bebop vocabulary generally is more than just spelling chords, arpeggios and rhythmically filling etc... Bop is more layers of harmony and BLUE NOTES. And chops... Maybe I'm old school, but bop was for burning and soloing...like all the choruses you could pull off. Hows your comping?

    Maybe play Cherokee... very easy head and changes are a little different... Moose the Mooche... is another cool head, Barbados, even Anthropology, Dexerity, Billies Bounce, Relaxin at the Camarillo, even Scrapple.... tunes still played a lot. And generally easier heads. Moose is a long head also... but fairly easy.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I'll try and get some material today. I generally just used non musical arpeggios, scales and the old spider like things. I generally like to work on technical issues by themselves. The point is to get better not play cool heads and licks. I also like to play steady chromatic passages at fast tempos with different string movement and keep the accents steady. Also like to work on phrasing at up tempos. I don't think it's really that hard.

    I believe I've posted scales, arpeggios and string set arpeggio licks for all scales and chords. It's kind of the same thing... play two octave arpeggios in all positions then change the note pattern.... instead of Root being rhythmical reference, make the 3rd, 5th, 7th then extensions.
    Then maybe play interval patterns... in 4ths, 5ths, 6ths etc.. the more difficult and faster you play... the better and cleaner the picking needs to become.

    Personally part of becoming better at any aspect of playing generally includes going through the process of notating or writing out what your working on.... your creating a visual record and understanding... that isn't just on your guitar.
    Cool, thanks Reg! I have made fast scale work a part of my practice lately. I think adding in arpeggios and other leaps is a great idea. I've practiced them a lot, but not always at 200+ BPM. That's kind of where my wall is for comfortably playing scales.

    I'd like to have the speed especially for bursts of double time, which I don't really do at all now.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    What is the most accurate chart to use in learning Donna Lee?

    I know, I know, the one I create when I transcribe it myself.

    Okay, so what's the best chart for checking my own personal, original, by ear, only memorized transcription of Donna Lee against?

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Whatever you do, Lawson, don't refer to the old Real Book version. It's full of errors - incorrect pitches and even arpeggio figures that invert the actual sequence. The versions in the Charlie Parker Omnibook and Mark Voelpel's Charlie Parker for Guitar book are much better (the latter has the head transposed up an octave to actual pitch). I transcribed my own version some years ago and cross-referenced it with all the others I could find, including a xeroxed page from Barry Galbraith that an ex-student and friend of mine passed on, to clear up any errors and look for possible fingering solutions.

    Here's the head. I won't post my own complete chart with all the articulations intact as everyone has to find what works for them. However, keep in mind that if you want to retain a horn-like character with slides and hammer/pull-offs that mostly move from weak to strong beats, relying on static positions won't really cut it when playing Parker heads.
    Donna Lee fingering for speed-donna-lee-jpg

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Btw, the reason it’s tough to play on a guitar, is it was not written by a guitar player! It was first played on a trumpet (and not by miles, have a search here is you don’t know, who wrote Donna lee, find the most recent thread). Very interesting.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, if it helps somebody get their picking together, it's totally worth it.

    I mean, I don't know why you can't do 'em all. I have limited practice time, and I still learn heads, learn songs, steal licks. It's not impossible.

    I think learning the head to Donna Lee and getting it to tempo is great practice. The head is just a bunch of bop licks anyway.
    Didn't say it was impossible, but there's definitely an opportunity cost involved with how we choose to use our practice time. Weird thing is that I've been playing this head way less than usual focusing elsewhere and I played it with the recording today no problem. Funny how that worked out!

    I do agree that this head helps ingrain bop vocab.

    Good luck to you Peterson, you're soloing is better than mine for sure. Maybe if you don't stress playing this head fast it will just click for you like it did for me today.