Donna Lee fingering for speed

**PMB** · 12-26-2019, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I'm really having trouble--ear-trouble--hearing those A naturals! Gotten re-train my ear for that measure.

They're definitely present, Lawson but unexpected as the home key is Ab and the phrase leads to an Fm chord (if you want to doublecheck, load Parker's performance in YouTube, set the playback mode to 0.25 and listen from 0'17"):

Of course, there are lots of recordings and live performances that disregard the A naturals, either consciously or otherwise so you'd be in decent company if you chose to ignore them.

**lawson-stone** · 12-26-2019, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

They're definitely present, Lawson but unexpected as the home key is Ab and the phrase leads to an Fm chord (if you want to doublecheck, load Parker's performance in YouTube, set the playback mode to 0.25 and listen from 0'17"):

Of course, there are lots of recordings and live performances that disregard the A naturals, either consciously or otherwise so you'd be in decent company if you chose to ignore them.

Actually I've spent part of my day today playing along with Bird and the Boys and i hear that A natural loud and clear, so its done. I'm in the tank with the A Naturals.

But I tell you. Even slowed down to 160, trying to play that with Bird and the Band just underscores how totally un-hip I am. They play like drunk virtuosos. I play like I've got rigor mortis.

This is one of the most discouraging clips I"ve ever posted. Maybe it'll make some of you guys feel better about your own playing!

**PMB** · 12-27-2019, 04:31 AM

You're too hard on yourself, my man. I can hear improvements with each take. Copping Parker's time feel is no easy task but I had a musical epiphany many years ago when I realised that CP was playing blindingly quick lines on uptempo tunes but treating them as if they were ballads or at most, medium-tempo swingers. Rather than count 4 beats to the bar, he cut the bar in half. Listen to the head again, count only on the '1' and '3 and notice how the accents line up (it's especially clear on this tune as the first entry is on beat 3). In other words, once you get to a certain tempo, what would normally be the backbeat ('2' and '4') is transferred to 3rd beat of each bar. Drunken virtuosity right there!

There's a video somewhere on YouTube where saxophonist, Joe Lovano talks about this approach and demonstrates the difference via tapping his foot at different rates. The change in feel and phrasing is remarkable, despite the internal rhythms of his lines remaining fairly constant.

I see the whole thing as fractal. Eighth-note upbeats are generally accented and slurred onto downbeats to create forward motion. Those upbeats transform into 2 & 4 backbeats and then accents on the second half of the bar, the first beat of every second bar, etc. This explains why we precede counting each beat in a bar when bringing in a band with a long count: 1 - 2 - 1-2-3-4. The first '2' is actually the 3rd beat of the bar but that telescoping helps everyone internalise the divisions at a broader level.

I hope that makes sense. Guitarists often get so wound up with getting the pitches and fingerings down (a challenging enough exercise as it is) that they miss the vital aspects of rhythm and articulations that help bring bop lines to life.

**stoneground** · 12-28-2019, 09:45 AM

I think these observations on the rhythmic subtleties are important. I've struggled to articulate this tune for decades and have come to accept that I'm not wired to execute it at any great speed. I was taken to task years ago when the clarinet player in our band complained that I was not playing it properly because I wasn't playing the dotted rhythm. The only way I could get it up to speed was by playing straight eighth notes. He wasn't happy with that and it's stuck with me ever since. In fact I don't think I've yet heard anyone play it at a very fast tempo and remain faithful to the original dotted rhythm that you hear on the early Parker recordings. Musically I also think there is little to be gained at ridiculous tempos. There is a take of Joe Pass and Niels Orsted Pederson on Youtube playing Donna Lee at a frantic pace but despite their great talents it comes across as mere musical gymnastics to me and the dotted rhythms are completely lost.
Full credit to Peterson and Lawson for being brave enough to show their attempts which at least capture the spirit of the original composition even if the tempos are relatively modest.

**lawson-stone** · 12-30-2019, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by stoneground

I think these observations on the rhythmic subtleties are important. I've struggled to articulate this tune for decades and have come to accept that I'm not wired to execute it at any great speed. I was taken to task years ago when the clarinet player in our band complained that I was not playing it properly because I wasn't playing the dotted rhythm. The only way I could get it up to speed was by playing straight eighth notes. He wasn't happy with that and it's stuck with me ever since. In fact I don't think I've yet heard anyone play it at a very fast tempo and remain faithful to the original dotted rhythm that you hear on the early Parker recordings. Musically I also think there is little to be gained at ridiculous tempos. There is a take of Joe Pass and Niels Orsted Pederson on Youtube playing Donna Lee at a frantic pace but despite their great talents it comes across as mere musical gymnastics to me and the dotted rhythms are completely lost.
Full credit to Peterson and Lawson for being brave enough to show their attempts which at least capture the spirit of the original composition even if the tempos are relatively modest.

thanks. I actually have noticed almost all bebop players, when they pass 200 bpm or so, move to a much more even-8ths, smoothed-out sound, and the swing feel happens as a kind of larger feeling pulsing in the background somehow. I love Pass/NHOP doing Donna Lee. I don't think the dotted rhythms are really sacrosanct at all. We're jazz players. We play it the best way we can with the feeling we want. Your clarinet player insisting on dotted feel... should just shut up and play with the band. Swing can happen over even-8ths but it's not quantified in the dotted 8th notes.

I"ve been learning the Jimmy Raney solos from the Aebersold vol. 20 now for about 2 years and I notice his phrasing in long 8th note lines is often much more even than dotted. He gets the swing feel in the way he moves between the notes. He slurs where I pick, he uses a sweep where I wouldn't, and where I sweep, he plays almost staccato notes. He gets the swing feel somewhere else than in a strict dotted-8th approach. And nobody, nobody, says Jimmy Raney doesn't swing at all tempos!

So I don't feel badly if I end up with a more even-8th approach. If I keep playing the tune, keep it clean, and keep advancing the tempo as I am able to do so while still feeling the music , I think Ill be fine. I might not ever get past 200 bpm, but my goal is really just to enjoy being able to play the tune clearly at a decent tempo.

**geese_com** · 01-01-2020, 12:35 PM

Here is a transcription of Adrien Moignard playing it at around 270 BPM. I would say that his fingerings would need to be pretty efficient to be able to play it at that speed.

Donna Lee - Adrien Moignard, Benoit Convert | Soundslice

**lawson-stone** · 01-01-2020, 12:55 PM

Here's my latest tweaking of the fingering, played slowly. Mainly I've been hung up on mm 5-12 and 15-16. I think I have a better approach here, but need to practice to get it up to speed.

Just playing into the Princeton Reverb Reissue and capturing the video and audio with my iPhone.

AND here it is played with a backing track at about 160 bpm. The first chorus is with an even 8ths feel, the second is more swing feel. I think this is the fingering now I'll stay with and start building up.

**lawson-stone** · 01-10-2020, 08:06 PM

I imagine some were hoping I'd given up, but no, this guy never gives up. I now have pushed "Donna Lee" to the 190 bpm mark. No swing. Not very clean, not very articulate, but hey one thing at a time. I gotta be able to play it before I can swing it. It's amazing to me how I can have it all good but one phrase. I get that phrase right, some other phrase comes loose.

ALSO: Is there anyone other than me who just feels like the HAVE TO PLAY SOMETHING during that long 2 measure rest? I have a feeling that a test for being a cool cat is being able to play nothing for the full 2 measures.

Anyhow, for the few of you who love seeing torture, pain, failure... or just a fun and crazy project, here is my somewhat deeper involvement with that most difficult of Bebop Ladies, "Donna Lee."

**ccroft** · 01-10-2020, 10:53 PM

You're definitely making progress. I want to thank you for persevering and posting about it.

With this thread, and with some time off over the holidays I finally decided to learn it. Something I've been meaning to do ever since Jaco did it. That's a LOT of procrastination. Things are coming along nicely, but I'm really not ready to share.

One thing I'd like to say in our defense. In slowing down the 1947 version to hone in on the phrasing it's comforting to hear that Miles is having some trouble! :)

**lawson-stone** · 01-11-2020, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by ccroft

You're definitely making progress. I want to thank you for persevering and posting about it.

With this thread, and with some time off over the holidays I finally decided to learn it. Something I've been meaning to do ever since Jaco did it. That's a LOT of procrastination. Things are coming along nicely, but I'm really not ready to share.

One thing I'd like to say in our defense. In slowing down the 1947 version to hone in on the phrasing it's comforting to hear that Miles is having some trouble!

Especially since a lot of music historians believe that Miles wrote the tune!

**lawson-stone** · 01-12-2020, 11:26 AM

I've found the movement from about 175-ish up to 200-ish tempo is always in small increments, at least for me.

I have this now up into the mid 190's so thought I'd post just in case I blow out a knuckle or something. I honestly am amazed at people who can play at these tempos and still articulate and phrase nicely. I'm so happy just to find the notes!

Also.... I go back and forth whether this is easier on the 25.5" scale or the 24.75" scale. I have average size hands and sometimes I think the longer scale is marginally easier.

Here's the L5ces

And here's the VOS1959 ES175

**lawson-stone** · 01-12-2020, 06:46 PM

So... as if my "final" clips weren't already plagued with mistakes, here are the clips from the cutting room floor, all in the interest of full disclosure!

It's amazing to me how at the end of a phrase, sometimes the old synapses just won't "fire" the next line.

**Peterson** · 01-14-2020, 06:02 AM

I’m still in the game! I just got the app Drum Genius. It’s fun to play to!

**fathand** · 01-14-2020, 10:30 AM

Great thread here, humbling and amazing!

**Peterson** · 01-16-2020, 07:05 AM

Baby steps.

Just got the Ibanez AFC125. Lots of squeeking with round wounds. Good guitar though.

**lawson-stone** · 01-16-2020, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Patlotch

Thank you for your response. I took over the guitar less than a year after 10 years of interruption. I changed my technique after going from the 7 strings to the 8 strings and the pick hybrid pick-fingers to 5 fingers without nails. I spend a lot of time working with my right hand and coordinating my left hand on sets of adjacent or not strings. I learn from it to improve this technic and I share on my forum very detailed exercises that I build for this (in French, sorry)

moreover, I have a big flaw, I work little on themes, or at least not to the point of presenting them, it would have no interest

if I worked Donna Lee, it would be on a ballade tempo, with just a bass line, in 3 different registers

I think I will soon be able to show videos of exercises that I propose, for the series of chords in fragments, intervals played simultaneously, counterpoint, passing notes and chords, etc. but at this stage I have met no interest for my technical considerations, and even teachers, here, come to say that it is not possible (because they do not know how to do it), that we do not do like that, because the Chord Scale Theory (CST say experts) or Barry Harris, the best Jazz Teacher of all times etc. I don't care, There with never be another me

I am unknown and have no desire to be known, but I believe in what I do, and I would do it. It may be in 20 years, there will be only one video, it will be my will, we will fall on our ass! Gone With the Wind!

Now I'll let you work. Good luck!

That is a spectacular clip! That woman playing rhythm guitar is like a swinging heart-beat for the music.

Most of us here are unknowns! My musical motto is "I don't make history, I just make music." It has taken me a month to learn "Donna Lee" and I've worked on almost nothing else, so that tells you how far down in the talent hierarchy I am! Plus a job and family. We are mostly players here who just love the guitar and love this music.

I was sincere when I said I would love to hear you play. We are 95% a very supportive community on this forum, and every level of accomplishment gets celebrated and encouraged. I imagine you play much better than you say you do. Every time I watch a clip of a forum member playing, I'm encouraged to stay with the struggle to get better.

All the best sir. I wish I spoke French! My daughter is fluent in French, has her PhD in French literature and lived in Paris for a year. She introduced me to many of the delights of that city, but I'm sure I would love to know more.

**lawson-stone** · 01-18-2020, 08:01 PM

This week I found the 200 bpm mark and about 90% clean. The phrasing is still not very lively, and there are a few spots where it's not a cleanly played as it needs to be, but this is the point where I"m going to stop increasing the tempo until I can play it cleanly and with good phrasing. I just knew forum members were checking here every day to see if I made it (NOT).

I'm also having fun with the Fender Super Champ X2 head set on the 65 Deluxe model. This little hybrid tube head is a lot of fun to experiment with.

**McJazzer** · 03-20-2020, 05:01 PM

I recorded this video while I was working on the Cunard Queen Mary 2 earlier this year and I had uploaded it to YouTube privately. I forgot about it until I got a notification that it had been made public just now.

Oddly enough, today is exactly a month since I've left the ship and I could not be happier to be home. Two days ago, I heard that the company FINALLY cancelled the world cruise it was on. During my final month onboard, we had skipped directly from Dubia, then to Sri Lanka, and finally to Australia. Only 3 days in port over the course of 17 days due to the evolving Corona virus situation in Asia at the time.

We had originally planned to visit Vietnam, Thailand, Hong Kong, and Singapore but instead skipped them all and I ended up flying home from Australia at a substantial cost to myself. This was filmed during my last couple days on board as I prepared for graduate school auditions once I got home. I'm glad to be done with cruise ships and I'm hoping life returns to normal as soon as possible.

All the best to you and your families during this crisis. Stay safe.

**lawson-stone** · 03-20-2020, 05:11 PM

So glad you're safe. And what a fantastic clip. I've been slaving on "Donna Lee" forever and can barely hack though the head. You just dominated it. Well done.

I love to hear forum members play!

**carlescountry** · 03-21-2020, 03:41 PM

Extraordinary Alex! I'm glad to know that you're safe.

**McJazzer** · 03-21-2020, 10:29 PM

Thank you both. I have too much down time right now and I often think about what it must feel like to be on that ship currently. I am counting my blessings every day and praying for those still onboard.

You guys stay safe during this. All the best.

**deacon Mark** · 04-16-2024, 03:41 PM

I am coming back to this tread. I have been woodshedding on Donna Lee for weeks but seems I cannot get past a certain tempo. I have tried every finger imaginable but over the course in due time they all seem to work about the same. One thing is to throw out any thought of positions and just go for where it lays the best. This requires a bit of shifting position. I can attest that a few times I can get it to around 210 bpm but certainly not smooth and easy. Seems like I am just all exhausted mentally trying to stay with it. It always seems like no matter what I eventually will make a mistake on the melody.

So right now 180 is doable but these folks on youtube doing it at above 250 clearly have something I do not. I would like to see others discuss this tune and tempo they can achieve. It is not a contest but just reality of playing bebop on the guitar.

**rpjazzguitar** · 04-16-2024, 08:08 PM

I spent many hours over years tinkering with my fingering for Donna Lee.

Basically try to play it fast to find where the bottlenecks are. Then find ways around them.

I don't think I'm done with it.

**lawson-stone** · 04-17-2024, 10:17 AM

Wow so glad to see the Return Of Donna Lee! I play through the head a couple of times a day but haven't really been tracking how I'm doing with tempo. No doubt I've slowed down since barely tagging the 200 bpm base. I'll fool around with it a bit and post something shortly.

**deacon Mark** · 04-17-2024, 12:27 PM

I got a different fingering for one part in the middle that seems to help. My problem is I have to start on the G at the 7th fret. I cannot start at the 3rd and work to the A on the 3rd string. The jump to C then for whatever reason is not smooth. It also helps to slur notes in places, but my Johnny Smith training of precise and clear notes does not want to give up. Once I get it clean with no slurs then I can start the think about ways to make it sound better. Also, for me it helps to mentally count the melody out like I was reading it. I did that on the second phrase of the melody that starts with D to E on beat 4. Then counting the next all out I manage to get it better.

I even try all my guitars to see if that makes a difference but really it does not matter. I seem to get same regardless of what guitar I use. Another point is to accent notes and find geometric shapes that help me pivot through the melody. Really, I think I have a lagging ring finger for playing. I normally use all my fingers equally not just 3. In fact, I use my picky and ring finger more in some respects. This could explain my issues.

In another analogy as a road cyclist my highest pedal cadence is around 112 rpms for short time. A good pro can do that cadence for a long time and smooth. That said for an old cyclist I am able to stay with fellows quite a few years younger. It is more than speed and I suspect give the physical nature of guitar the same principles apply. We cannot play faster but we can play smarter with experience and use of phasing. I am going to just play this tune each day for 20-25 minutes and at some point, I figure the point of diminishing returns set in and I will know the score.