The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Dear fellows,


    I recently started studying some different chords, trying to go a bit beyond the power chords and the pentatonic scale.


    Usually, I do listen to people complaining about pain in the picking hand or the fingers of the fretboard hand due to significant stretches.
    It isn’t my case, at least not yet.

    However, I do feel strong pain in my fretboard hand’s thumb.

    I am attaching a picture of how I have my thumb in the neck most of the time while playing.


    Do you guys have some advice?


    Thanks in advance for your help.


    Cheers,
    Ivo
    Thumb pain while playing chords-img_3622-jpg

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    1) 2) You might want to check out the way classical guitarists position their fretting hands. Guitar neck at 45 degrees from horizontal, thumb behind the neck, thumb tip bearing the force and supplying the pivot point behind the neck. There are variations on this, but this is the basic default position. Best of luck!

  4. #3

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    There is a type of tendinitis guitarists are prone to related to chording. Bear with me.

    Hold your hands in front of you like you are carrying a large box and your fingers are pointing straight forward and your palms face the ceiling. That should be very comfortable. Now keep your arms in that same position but flex your wrist maximally so your thumb and finger point to the ceiling and your palms face your body. That can bring out the pain of tendinitis at the base of your thumb.

    The combination of flexing your wrist like that and opening up the distance between your thumb and index finger does stress that tendon. The worst position for those with this tendinitis is to keep your thumb centered on the back of the neck, to have the neck low, like in front of your heart instead of your throat, and to have a thick neck on your guitar.

    So what to do if you are so afflicted? Change your positioning to be more like a classic player, not a rock star. Center your thumb higher on the back of the neck. Use an instrument with a thinner neck. Wrap your thumb over the neck when you can.

    This is a tough problem.

    Thumb pain while playing chords-2441110045_792c67c077_b-jpgThumb pain while playing chords-christopher-jpg

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    1) 2) You might want to check out the way classical guitarists position their fretting hands. Guitar neck at 45 degrees from horizontal, thumb behind the neck, thumb tip bearing the force and supplying the pivot point behind the neck. There are variations on this, but this is the basic default position. Best of luck!

    Thank you citizenk74,

    I'll try to make some adjustments.

    Cheers,
    Ivo

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    There is a type of tendinitis guitarists are prone to related to chording. Bear with me.

    Hold your hands in front of you like you are carrying a large box and your fingers are pointing straight forward and your palms face the ceiling. That should be very comfortable. Now keep your arms in that same position but flex your wrist maximally so your thumb and finger point to the ceiling and your palms face your body. That can bring out the pain of tendinitis at the base of your thumb.

    The combination of flexing your wrist like that and opening up the distance between your thumb and index finger does stress that tendon. The worst position for those with this tendinitis is to keep your thumb centered on the back of the neck, to have the neck low, like in front of your heart instead of your throat, and to have a thick neck on your guitar.

    Thank you Marty Grass,

    I did the test and indeed I do feel the pain.
    I already adjust my guitar strap, although I never had my guitar like Jimmy Page. I don't know how he can play like that :-)

    I'll also try to find a hand doctor or a physiotherapist.


    Cheers,
    Ivo

  7. #6

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    It looks like you have thick strong hands, but also maybe somewhat short fingers (maybe?)

    It also looks like your guitar neck is right over your thigh.

    I also wonder if you are playing new and unfamiliar chords that are causing you to grip hard?

    I also wonder if your scale length might be a bit long for your hands - given the chords you are trying to play now?

    So,
    Angle the neck up,
    Don't grip too hard,
    Assess the guitar scale length relative to your hand length - do you need a shorter scale?,
    Be mindful of the chords and their required stretches and contortions - and be patient. Give yourself time to work them up - AND - discard any grips that really disagree with your hand. The jazz guitar police have no jurisdiction to arrest you.

  8. #7
    Hi Jazzstdnt,

    Your description of my hands is perfect. :-)
    Indeed I don't see myself as some with long fingers.
    Usually, I do feel a bit more comfortable with 25" (PRS) scale than with 25.5" (Fender).
    However, I think that 25.5" sounds a bit better for my years.

    Nevertheless, I am following your advice, I did put the guitar a bit up and angle the neck more.

    Thank you very much for your help.

    Cheers,
    Ivo

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    There is a type of tendinitis guitarists are prone to related to chording. Bear with me.

    Hold your hands in front of you like you are carrying a large box and your fingers are pointing straight forward and your palms face the ceiling. That should be very comfortable. Now keep your arms in that same position but flex your wrist maximally so your thumb and finger point to the ceiling and your palms face your body. That can bring out the pain of tendinitis at the base of your thumb.

    The combination of flexing your wrist like that and opening up the distance between your thumb and index finger does stress that tendon. The worst position for those with this tendinitis is to keep your thumb centered on the back of the neck, to have the neck low, like in front of your heart instead of your throat, and to have a thick neck on your guitar.

    So what to do if you are so afflicted? Change your positioning to be more like a classic player, not a rock star. Center your thumb higher on the back of the neck. Use an instrument with a thinner neck. Wrap your thumb over the neck when you can.

    This is a tough problem.
    This is exactly what I’m dealing with. Never had it in 40 years of playing but it’s been acting up for 6 months or so. All the suggestions in the above post work really well.

    Something else that works for me is to avoid using a bar whenever possible. For example Em7b5 can be played using four fingertips instead of barring at the 7th fret. This works for a lot of four-note chords. For some five-note chords with a bass note on the low E it’s possible to wrap my thumb around the neck. For stretchy chords with a lot of notes I sometimes leave one note out to prevent excess tension on my thumb tendon.

    I’ve found that preparation helps. A good warm-up is essential for me and I do that by having fun: some cowboy chord tunes, some scales and solos, just playing along to some rock ‘n roll and being relaxed. Playing hard stuff when my hands are cold is a no-no. Finally, some forms of meditation do a lot for me. I got that from John McLaughlin and Steve Vai who both used meditation as a form of self-healing. For me, it helps to not make it worse. Healing is another matter.

    Next step is finding out how to beat this thing and get rid of it.

  10. #9

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    Strange, the advice to use a thinner neck. I never tried a really fat neck (not fatter than the "moderate vintage V" one on my Alligator) but there's a lower limit under which I get problems in my left hand. I guess there must be an optimum range that depends on the size of your hands and the length of your fingers.

    With bar chords it's crucial to put your thumb opposite the middle finger or even the annular. This turns your thumb into a lever around which you can pivot your hand such that you use more of the side than the soft fleshy undersize of your index finger to old down the bar. Don't use hand strength only but use your arm weight through the lever (compensate with the right arm to keep the guitar in place).

    I picked up the crux of this from a post by a guitar teacher explaining why he had a pre-teen girl pupil who could hold down bar chords an adult manual worker student couldn't.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    in place)I picked up the crux of this from a post by a guitar teacher explaining why he had a pre-teen girl pupil who could hold down bar chords an adult manual worker student couldn't.
    I can sound a simple bar chord like Em7 without using my thumb at all (i.e. without squeezing the neck), which goes to show how little force is actually needed.

  12. #11

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    Do not insist on playing as long as the pain ramains... apply ice where it hurts for a few minutes a few times a day and, most importantly, see a physiotherapist (or doctor). Then make the necessary changes (for instance: in posture, hand positioning and movement etc.).

    I've suffered tendonitis for years, acupuncture, physiotherapy and making postural/mechanical changes (and, of course, a bit of warming up and stretching before and after playing) helped my healing.

  13. #12

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    Our thumb is the strongest finger we have that evolved to be able to do a lot of heavy lifting. I'm not saying you can't get tendinitis in it but I do think there are several places that are more likely to develop such symptoms because of inappropriate use of your thumb (golfer's elbow comes to mind).

    I see I forgot to ask an important question: where in your thumb is the pain situated and do you only feel it while playing or does it also bother you during other activities or (worse) continuously?

    If the latter it is wise indeed to take a break, and in any case it will probably help to apply diclofenac ("Voltaren") balm/gel 2x or 3x per day until the pain has (mostly) subsided.

    Even if it's a form of tendinitis I would not take a complete rest for more than a few days; my own rather annoying case of tennis elbow only started to disappear when I found the right exercises.

    And once the worst of the pain has subsided: get yourself some grip strengtheners (and use them with your arms and hands in playing position)! Playing with minimum absolute force is crucial but the effort you have to put in to generate that force does depend on how strong your hands are

  14. #13

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    [seeing the OP posted in 2019 and hopefully has retired from guitar...or solved the pain by now]

    as the discussion has re-surfaced, here are some Q's to ask. Is the pain at the joint at the base, muscular in nature? is it bone spur? etc?
    Years ago, i suffered from increasingly painful soreness at the tip of my thumb, i suspect a bone bruise of some sort. Turns out, my guitar neck profile was the culprit, a soft V-shape. This ridge caused my thumb pad to focus too much pressure in one spot.
    I tried a flat D-shaped neck and the pain immediately went away forever and I find the D shape to give me better reach for stretch chords.
    Hope you resolve the issue.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeSF
    [seeing the OP posted in 2019 and hopefully has retired from guitar...or solved the pain by now]

    as the discussion has re-surfaced, here are some Q's to ask. Is the pain at the joint at the base, muscular in nature? is it bone spur? etc?
    Years ago, i suffered from increasingly painful soreness at the tip of my thumb, i suspect a bone bruise of some sort. Turns out, my guitar neck profile was the culprit, a soft V-shape. This ridge caused my thumb pad to focus too much pressure in one spot.
    I tried a flat D-shaped neck and the pain immediately went away forever and I find the D shape to give me better reach for stretch chords.
    Hope you resolve the issue.
    I had the same issue when I tried a V neck on my Strat partscaster about a decade, or so, ago. The pad of my thumb hurt. Had to remove it and start over with a more rounded profile.

    The only point that I will try to make is that besides understand and using a technique that won't cause pain, there are a lot of neck, fretboard, nut, fret, and saddle geometries to play with to get to something that works for your own individuality. It took me years to figure out what works for me and I eventually have all my partscasters set up with the necks that work for me. I think that it has also helped me when I play other guitars such as Gibsons that don't have quite the same geometries as long as they don't have super slim necks or V-necks. I guess my philosophy is that if there is pain then you can sculpt your way around it. However, conditions like arthritis are withstanding. Luckily I am not there.

  16. #15

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    As far as I can tell, the biggest factors in left-hand discomfort are age and the cumulative effects of various bad habits, along with neck-profile issues.

    My left hand was fine up to about five years ago (that is, after 55 years of playing). I was comfortable with anything from a 1-11/16" Guild to a 1-7/8" flat-fingerboard/shallow-profile Michael Dunn, until I got a spasm in the big muscle at the base of the thumb. I had to mostly retire the Dunn, on which I was used to playing two-hour non-stop sets, in favor of guitars with a deeper profile and/or a radiused fingerboard. (The conventional profile of my Eastman is really comfortable, and I got to quite like the old-fashioned V neck on my Loar.)

    Since then, the bottom joint on the thumb has started to act up in a way that is clearly arthritic--quite a few older players have reported similar discomfort, so I'm guessing that it's a fairly common old-guy wear-and-tear issue, not unlike the shoulder problems that many guitarists experience.

    I don't have a real solution, beyond not playing the Dunn for more than a half-hour or so at a time, and paying attention to which guitar I take out and how I finger some chords--fewer thumb-over shapes, and no attempts to thumb the A string. At 78, I'm grateful that 9 of the 10 fingers are reasonably operational, if not quite as nimble as they once were.

  17. #16

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    Rotating my guitars helps because a different guitar makes me play subtly different. Scale length, neck shape, fret size, string gauge, it all adds up. If I feel discomfort at the base of my thumb (my problem area) and switch guitars then it’s not uncommon for the pain to subside. If it doesn’t, I take a break.

    I only feel pain when playing certain chords, usually stretchy ones or partial barre chords. Technique adaptations also make a difference: instead of having the fingers parallel to the frets (classical position) a lot of chords can be fretted with the knuckles facing towards the nut and the fingertips towards the bridge. This allows the thumb to be wrapped around the neck and immediately brings relief.

  18. #17

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    Hello,hope your pain is gone. I have similar pain try using a creme that has 1% (NSAID).rub on part of your thumb that hurts. take couple of days to really feel total relief but you might not have to make adjustment to your playing style. Good luck Razz1949

  19. #18

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    I've always wondered if the technique of using the thumb to finger bass notes in chord fingerings on the low E string leads to problems later on in playing. That was the most common thing that classical guitar teachers and various books warned against when I was studying classical guitar.
    You see a lot of that in the jazz players of today.
    It seems like such a forced position.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I've always wondered if the technique of using the thumb to finger bass notes in chord fingerings on the low E string leads to problems later on in playing. That was the most common thing that classical guitar teachers and various books warned against when I was studying classical guitar.
    You see a lot of that in the jazz players of today.
    It seems like such a forced position.
    I have big hands but was just never able to get comfortable w/the thumb over thing.

  21. #20

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    I've had my fair share of finger problems with my tendons and arthritis over the past few years.Biogel has been a big help to me.I bought an electronic hand warmer recently and when i get up in the morning i use it for about 10 minutes and it seems to help more than soaking my hands.Beware though to use it only on the lowest setting otherwise it might burn your hand.Taking 2 alleve before a gig or practice can also be helpful.

  22. #21

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    Be alert to pain that appears suddenly after years of pain free playing; sometimes it is something simple like a new or changed repetitive function you haven't noticed.

    A few years back I seemed to have developed a problem with my left index finger - I felt pain when I applied it to the finger board for certain things way up the neck. I took a bread bag tie and made myself a ring for that finger so I would notice every time I used it throughout the day (looking for something new that was straining my finger).

    It did not take long to discover that the over-sized coffee cup my neice gave me was causing the problem. I left the ring on as it quickly got better but did not entirely go away... discovered the new guts that I installed in the toilet had increased the force required to depress the flush handle and continuing to push it with one finger was the cause, soon all went back to normal.

    An old thread, but I think the photo at the beginning looks like the thumb needs to move its contact further toward the tuning end of the neck... maybe try to get it opposing the index/second finger area.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc chaz
    I bought an electronic hand warmer recently
    I got myself a few pairs of cotton compression gloves that only cover the 1st phalanges when I started noticing problems, among which a trigger ringfinger on my right hand. Very helpful.
    I also sacrificed a pair of silk under-gloves for guitar playing in winter, cutting off the tops with a pair of cranted (?) scissors to prevent unravelling. For the left hand I cut off more on the thumb side of the index finger so I can still have direct contact with the neck. This really helps when it's 18 or less in my study.

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    It did not take long to discover that the over-sized coffee cup my neice gave me was causing the problem. I left the ring on as it quickly got better but did not entirely go away... discovered the new guts that I installed in the toilet had increased the force required to depress the flush handle and continuing to push it with one finger was the cause, soon all went back to normal.
    Amazing how every-day activities can strain one's finger joints, eh? There comes an age where you have to be more aware of the ones that put lateral strain on your fingers... I'm very familiar with the cup thing. I like big mugs, but nowadays I always go for a thin metal one rather than ceramic, and make certain the ear is big enough that I can fit at least 3 fingers.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Amazing how every-day activities can strain one's finger joints, eh? There comes an age where you have to be more aware of the ones that put lateral strain on your fingers... I'm very familiar with the cup thing. I like big mugs, but nowadays I always go for a thin metal one rather than ceramic, and make certain the ear is big enough that I can fit at least 3 fingers.
    Yeah, was kind of a shame too because she had painted an image of my guitar on the cup, had my name on it, etc., but the thing was heavy, lateral pressure...

  25. #24

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    In winter, to warm my hands before practicing/playing I used to soak my hands in the sink filled with hot water (5 to 10 minutes).
    Now I fill in a hot water bottle (I prefer dry hands) & carry it around while I do other things (for instance, I keep it on my lap while I eat and rest my left hand on it)... in any case, I my right hand is free and I can walk around doing other things, hold it with both hands while I walk around the house, etc... this way my hands are warm and ready when I get to play...

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by frabarmus
    In winter, to warm my hands before practicing/playing I used to soak my hands in the sink filled with hot water (5 to 10 minutes).
    Now I fill in a hot water bottle (I prefer dry hands) & carry it around while I do other things (for instance, I keep it on my lap while I eat and rest my left hand on it)... in any case, I my right hand is free and I can walk around doing other things, hold it with both hands while I walk around the house, etc... this way my hands are warm and ready when I get to play...
    You should try an electonic hand warmer.It's easier to use than a hot water bottle.I get up in the morning and while i am waiting for the coffee or tea kettle to boil i keep the warmer in my hand gripping it and it takes away the stiffness in my fingers.