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  1. #1

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    At 0:16 also repeats at round 0:22 and several times more later. You'll know what I'm talking about when you hear it. I heard other jazz players do it. Sort of horn like effect. I don't have my guitar with me to experiment. Do you just slide your finger as you tremolo pick?

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  3. #2

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    Cool recording! Yes, to my ears it sounds like some kind of combination between sliding and tremolo picking. Sometimes I even think he’s sliding up and then down again a few steps in the same phrase, especially around 0:16. Maybe I’m wrong, but to me that ”backwards effect” is pretty cool in this context.
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  4. #3

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    No, it’s a chromatic hammer-on triplet ascending, then pull-off chromatic triplet descending. I do them quite often, it’s a standard bebop lick.

    So pluck a note fretted with first finger LH, then hammer-on successively with fingers 2, 3, 4 going up the fretboard chromatically. Then pull off with the 4th finger and come back down the same way, i.e. pull off with fingers 3, 2, 1 successively.

    I’ve probably done it in one of my own videos somewhere.

  5. #4

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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    No, it’s a chromatic hammer-on triplet ascending, then pull-off chromatic triplet descending. I do them quite often, it’s a standard bebop lick.

    So pluck a note fretted with first finger LH, then hammer-on successively with fingers 2, 3, 4 going up the fretboard chromatically. Then pull off with the 4th finger and come back down the same way, i.e. pull off with fingers 3, 2, 1 successively.

    I’ve probably done it in one of my own videos somewhere.
    Make sense. That was my first guess also but it sounded like he was going up higher than a minor 3rd, that's why I thought it involved some sliding. Now I listened to it again, he is approaching that phrase by going up scalar/arpeggio and then ending the phrase with chromatic 4 finger hammer on and pull offs like you said. Approaching that with an ascending line and blending smoothly makes it sound like that legato part going a longer pitch distance. Cool.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 09-25-2019 at 10:25 PM.

  7. #6

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    Yes I think that’s the best way to use it, on the end of a line or in the middle of a line. I must have pinched it from Charlie Parker, I’m pretty sure he used this phrase quite a lot.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Yes I think that’s the best way to use it, on the end of a line. I must have pinched it from Charlie Parker, I’m pretty sure he used this phrase quite a lot.
    Yeah, totally sounds like bebop horn.

  9. #8

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    I think grahambop is right. It’s a chromatic hammer on and pull off technique in this case. But I’ve used the ”backwards sliding effect” several times before with approved results soundwise. The secret is to find a solid tremolo picking technique. I think there isn’t any perfect way to achieve this effect. Hammer ons, pull offs, sliding and tremolo picking may probably all work well. Maybe in combination?
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  10. #9

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    I do hammer hammer slide with ring, pull pull slide with index.

    The first guitar player I heard use something similar was Jerry Garcia, in my teens (before I listened to jazz)

    His was usually just the descending part. Pretty sure he stole it from Django.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #10

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    I learned how to play Bird lines by listening to Bud Powell play Charlie Parker songs which he had slowed down quite a bit from Charlie Parker's versions and I was able to record them on a reel-to-reel and slow to half speed.

    Nowadays they have Loopers that can do that for you, but back in the day (early 70's) it was reel-to-reel, and I was fortunate that my dad had a monster stereo that he purchased in Hong Kong when he was stationed overseas.

    I have forgotten most of that stuff but it was foundational for my understanding of Bebop.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I did it here at 2:27.

    By the way, cool playing in the video.
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  13. #12

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    I read in an interview once that Garcia described himself as having big ears, and he was totally into Coltrane and probably Parker too. I listen to the Grateful Dead to this day and when Jerry takes off on a lead I recognize some of those influences.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbmaj7#5#9 View Post
    By the way, cool playing in the video.
    Thank you!

  15. #14

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    Yea... great playin grahnam, love it. Yea you can play lick a number of ways.... but Bruce actually slides single fingers... check out some of his old live performances... I've bumped into him many time.... have always dug his soloing. I generally play like you... but pick all the notes, almost grace them, but in time.

  16. #15

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    It sounds like he's just hammering on and off . It's a classic Parker line - Parker tongues or articulates the second triplet of the phrase - the accuracy of his articulation is phenomenal . You can do it on guitar though perhaps not at this tempo .

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea... great playin grahnam, love it. Yea you can play lick a number of ways.... but Bruce actually slides single fingers... check out some of his old live performances... I've bumped into him many time.... have always dug his soloing. I generally play like you... but pick all the notes, almost grace them, but in time.
    Thanks Reg, most appreciated! Yes I basically alternate pick but with some left hand hammer-ons/pull-offs incorporated, just seemed a natural way for me to articulate things.

    By the way here’s Bruce showing some bebop devices, he shows a similar slur in this clip.

    https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...-bruce-forman/

  18. #17

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    In those particular moments I hear it as if he juts slides with one finger ...

    pulloffs and hammer ons are also there but in the other moments

  19. #18

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    Yea... Bruce could really burn back in the 80's and 90's. He could play whatever he felt like. Thanks for the new lesson post graham... Bruce is getting old... still great player, but not like the old days with Richie and his trio gigs. I was also performing in SF bay area in 70's and 80's... was fun time. When Bruce joined Richie Cole's band late 70's I had just move to LA after grad. from Berklee. Wouild still bump into him... Richie... was Richie, but still was great for Bruce's exposure. Still dig his back in the saddle thing now.

    This is just general picking discussion point.... and not directed towards anyone on this forum, but watch some old live BF vids... there aren't many on this forum that can get close to covering technique at his tempos. I have good technique... but was always amazed at Bruce's chops, his technical skills on his instrument. And generally he would be checking out something else while performing. Which is another skill I always try and get guitarist to do... quit staring at the fretboard.

    Sorry to go in off direction... but Bruce's sliding was cool technique at changing position. Think how you we as GUITARIST change positions... jump from position licks to different position licks, most just jump or move... which leads to the starring at the fretboard thing.... yes another discussion.

  20. #19

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    but Bruce's sliding was cool technique at changing position

    It is a great and important point
    an experience from other area - classical and lute playing - mistake that many amateur players do is that they whe they have shifts when they have to slide through several frets they cannot hit the right fret, oh they do it but insecure... mostly becasue they are not used to play in position... this is also definitely a key to blind-orientation.
    If you can play in postion you shif your hane easily smoothly and precisely...

    I also noticed that players with big hands and long fingers have often more problems with that becasue they try to stretch out always and also have naturally big grip around the neck...

    Just a couple of days ago I played a duo at home with my friend who comes to town occasionally - and it was exactly the case... I told him play in position you wont miss the fret... he acknowledged that but still kept playing the same way...

  21. #20

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    It's funny, because from a biomechanics POV Bruce's right hand technique looks horribly tense and inefficient. I can't watch it.

    Manifestly it's not, but I'm so used to picking in a certain way, and seeing players who minimise that kind of locking up of the forearm, that watching Bruce makes me feel tense.

    So I shut my eyes, and there's no problem.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It's funny, because from a biomechanics POV Bruce's right hand technique looks horribly inefficient. I can't watch it.

    So I shut my eyes, and there's no problem.
    Well, heck, compared to Pat Metheny, Bruce looks like he can play.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Well, heck, compared to Pat Metheny, Bruce looks like he can play.
    Haha, oh my god, Metheny.

    Mind you, from the sublime to the ridiculous, I look at my own left hand and go 'what the fuck is that flappy fiasco?' I can't watch myself play. It sounds a little better with the visuals off.

  24. #23

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    I'm lucky, I look how I sound. No surprises
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  25. #24

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    By the way here is some classic Bruce Forman stuff when he was with Richie Cole.


  26. #25

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    I believe that I've heard Joe Pass do that same thing many, many times. Perhaps a tad slower, but also perhaps with more noticeable effect..

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    No, it’s a chromatic hammer-on triplet ascending, then pull-off chromatic triplet descending. I do them quite often, it’s a standard bebop lick.

    So pluck a note fretted with first finger LH, then hammer-on successively with fingers 2, 3, 4 going up the fretboard chromatically. Then pull off with the 4th finger and come back down the same way, i.e. pull off with fingers 3, 2, 1 successively.

    I’ve probably done it in one of my own videos somewhere.
    I agree. Common lick, often played slower.

  28. #27

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    Great vid of the old days... thanks for posting. The wildman meets the madman. yea I really dug that group.... was a fun couple of years. Great exposure for Bruce.... not that he needed or wanted. But jazz was being performed on bigger stages and venues for a few short years and the playing sort of became entertainment, fun to watch and almost a hang thing. his exwife Yolanda the queen of madness... at least for a while back in 80's was pretty cool.

    yea... play it how ever you can.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Great vid of the old days... thanks for posting. The wildman meets the madman. yea I really dug that group.... was a fun couple of years. Great exposure for Bruce.... not that he needed or wanted. But jazz was being performed on bigger stages and venues for a few short years and the playing sort of became entertainment, fun to watch and almost a hang thing. his exwife Yolanda the queen of madness... at least for a while back in 80's was pretty cool.

    yea... play it how ever you can.
    Reg, I wanted to ask you, since alt. picking is your default technique, do you think practicing scales, exercises, arps, etc... using up-down picking instead of down-up picking is a beneficial thing to practice. I seem to hit a wall at 16ths at about 128-132 bpm on simpler exercises, even slower on scales. This is strictly for stronger technique, not some improvisation or articulation exercise
    I'm talking about playing with the metronome and playing up on the downbeat and down on the upbeat, to be clear.
    Pat Martino mentioned practicing that way to some of his students, and a few others have also mentioned it. What's your opinion?
    TIA

  30. #29

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    I don’t think Reg is a strict alternate picker, analysing his right hand. (Sorry to talk about you in the third person Reg lol)

    He’s mostly a benson/gypsy style downward pick slant guy, lot of downsweeps. His right hand stance is more similar to mine though than George’s. Sometimes he rotates his hand a little to get an upstroke, which is not a motion I personally use, but it’s useful for flexibility. What Grady calls upward pickslanting.

    He may have practiced alternate picking but that’s not how he plays. Me too actually.

    I reckon the alternate picking stuff I think he does will mostly be even notes a string, but I’d need to dig deeper.

    It makes sense, at speed you go with what feels physically good and easy, you might not have ever broken it down like this, in some ways it’s easier if you don’t.

    Bruce is more of a two way pick slanter. You can see his hand doing the movement all the time.

    One guy who is a stone alternate picker who uses a dwps type stroke is Mike Stern. Not quite sure how he does it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-27-2019 at 03:39 PM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Reg, I wanted to ask you, since alt. picking is your default technique, do you think practicing scales, exercises, arps, etc... using up-down picking instead of down-up picking is a beneficial thing to practice. I seem to hit a wall at 16ths at about 128-132 bpm on simpler exercises, even slower on scales. This is strictly for stronger technique, not some improvisation or articulation exercise
    I'm talking about playing with the metronome and playing up on the downbeat and down on the upbeat, to be clear.
    Pat Martino mentioned practicing that way to some of his students, and a few others have also mentioned it. What's your opinion?
    TIA
    You are probably string hopping. Post a vid of your right hand and I can say for sure.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You are probably string hopping. Post a vid of your right hand and I can say for sure.
    Don't have a video camera.

  33. #32

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    Hey Sgcim.... any picking practice has to help. The time spent should be organized... work on where you need work and keep it balanced. I'm pretty old school... I don't like the modern dull up stroke soft sound with little articulation sound. It's cool and I respect it... just not my thing. Of course if the gig pays well... I'll cover.

    hey Christian.... yes... My basic reference is alternating... it's just I'm pretty relaxed and use stroke direction to help with articulations.

    I mean I can easily use strict alt for anything and not need to even think about it... I'm way past having to actually think how I want to pick anything.... I just play it how I want to hear it. And because I'm such a rhythmic player... the pick direction is just part of the articulation. I suck... but I've sucked for so long I can't help it.

    I organized all my playing skills so that I would need very little practice. I'm lazy... I love to play... but hate rehearsals, practicing.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Don't have a video camera.
    Smart phone? iPad?

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey Sgcim.... any picking practice has to help. The time spent should be organized... work on where you need work and keep it balanced. I'm pretty old school... I don't like the modern dull up stroke soft sound with little articulation sound. It's cool and I respect it... just not my thing. Of course if the gig pays well... I'll cover.

    hey Christian.... yes... My basic reference is alternating... it's just I'm pretty relaxed and use stroke direction to help with articulations.

    I mean I can easily use strict alt for anything and not need to even think about it... I'm way past having to actually think how I want to pick anything.... I just play it how I want to hear it. And because I'm such a rhythmic player... the pick direction is just part of the articulation. I suck... but I've sucked for so long I can't help it.

    I organized all my playing skills so that I would need very little practice. I'm lazy... I love to play... but hate rehearsals, practicing.
    I think that’s the big thing. Obviously guys do it differently but I always feel it’s good to practice strict styles of picking and then apply them musically to the line. I mean Jimmy Raneys one of my favourite guys so I can’t say it’s wrong haha. Or Wes.

    In terms of getting shred fast, you are going to hit plateaus mechanically. Great alt pickers have worked out ways around them sometimes by chance - that’s what Tory Grady is obsessed with working out.

    But great alternate pickers in my experience are unusual and live in Nashville by and large. Most pickers lean into it, either dwps like Benson, Django, Tal, Reg etc or uwps like Peter Bernstein. Jazz ultimately is about the music not the chops, and the music helps I think....

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    By the way here is some classic Bruce Forman stuff when he was with Richie Cole.

    I think Bruce does one of those slidey licks at 2:26 here, it’s a bit blurry in the video though.

  37. #36

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    Great eyes Graham... Maybe... that style of lick , or technique in position is pretty typical... I just remembering back in the early 70's bumping into to Bruce at gigs, along with all the other local SF, and north bay scene players, anyway I liked his slide licks. As I said before Jazz was almost like entertainment back then... people enjoyed the music as well as the show. We were all still kids...with chops tryin to hang with the older players that already knew the language.

    Hey Christian... yea, chops are part of the tools. Back in the 70's I had some chops... The music is always first.... but the audiences change. And we do perform for the audience. The late 60's and 70's maybe 1st part of 80's were kind of cool, jazz performance being live etc... became kind of a thing, musicianship, technical skills became part of the entertainment... shows were fun. Now maybe it was the drugs or whatever, but audiences became part of the show... if you could bring them in. Unlike real jazz fan, younger audiences didn't know the tunes... sorry this is all BS. But I still gig as much as i can handle... and the skill thing still connects with audiences as long as the musicians do. ( obviously musically). Personally to many musicians are into the music and themselves to much... they don't connect with audiences while playing. (guitarist starring at fretboard while playing). It's all good.

  38. #37

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    If the musicians look like they are enjoying themselves, it tends to communicate itself to the audience, who are then more likely to be engaged. At least that’s what has struck me over the years, going to countless jazz gigs. Also helps if they bother to talk to the audience a bit.

    Some behave as if they’re at a funeral or something, it kills the atmosphere and makes the audience feel excluded.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    If the musicians look like they are enjoying themselves, it tends to communicate itself to the audience, who are then more likely to be engaged. At least that’s what has struck me over the years, going to countless jazz gigs. Also helps if they bother to talk to the audience a bit.

    Some behave as if they’re at a funeral or something, it kills the atmosphere and makes the audience feel excluded.
    My dream is to quote Ronnie Scott on some gig, and get on the mic and tell the audience, "Let's all join hands and try to contact the living".