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  1. #26

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    75 at 112bpm.



    How is everyone holding up? Are we starting a new thread for November or holding of until December? I haven’t tried out any of the patterns after 75, but that one was brutal. Had to approach it more like an etude than an exercise to get it up to the tempo indicated.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser
    75 at 112bpm.



    I haven’t tried out any of the patterns after 75, but that one was brutal. Had to approach it more like an etude than an exercise to get it up to the tempo indicated.
    Yeah. I'm working 76 now. Also, went back to 74, as I realized I had somehow missed that one.

    It's funny. I was really fine with these, until I started actually checking the tempos. The upper tempos are really brutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser
    Are we starting a new thread for November or holding of until December?
    Let's stay in September for a little while. :-)
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-01-2019 at 09:39 AM.

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Yeah. I'm working 76 now. Also, went back to 74, as I realized I had somehow missed that one.

    It's funny. I was really fine with these, until I started actually checking the tempos. The upper tempos are really brutal.
    Okay, I just checked out 76 with metronome and that's perfectly reasonable . My feelings aren't hurt have as much as with 74. :-)

    I think the upper tempo for #74 is another error which failed to account for the triplet timebase. Seeing it a few times elsewhere in the book. Generally, the upper tempo goes down , all things being equal, for eighth note triplets versus straight eight nights . 74 would seem to be an outlier. There's nothing about it to me that would seem to be "easier " than 73 or 75 for example. Both of those have lower tempos. It does have an ending quarter note . So, I don't know, but 132 BPM for number 74 seems insanely fast context of this book and the other exercises.

  5. #29
    Okay, looking at 76 with an actual metronome, that one doesn't hurt my feelings nearly so bad as 74 and 75. I think the upper tempo on number 74 is crazy. 76-78 should be a bit of a breather.

  6. #30
    Pattern 74 at 132 bpm:



    Comments appreciated...

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Pattern 74 at 132 bpm:
    Good going, Matt! The way you hold your pick makes me almost fall of my chair while watching

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser
    Good going, Matt! The way you hold your pick makes me almost fall of my chair while watching
    Ha. Me too. Certainly looks funny!

  9. #33

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    Here's my latest pick grip. (Which is one I've tried before and then abandoned.) It looks odd to me but it feels great.

    Patterns for Jazz Study Group - September 2019-pick-grip-jpg

    I don't pick with the tip. That's what I grip. The picking is done with the left (top) shoulder of the pick and that edge is lower than my index finger, and angled.

    As for PFJ, I'm still slow 2 w 75 and have started on 76, which should be easier.

  10. #34

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    What is the difference between a lick and a pattern?

    Just saying.

  11. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    What is the difference between a lick and a pattern?

    Just saying.
    That's a good question . I don't know if it's one that has a clear answer. I would think of licks as being more musically specific language . The introduction to the book talks about "patterns " fragments , and sequences". To me, these are more like compartmentalized, smaller bits of language FROM WHICH you would make actual music with rhythmic variation etc. The intro also points out the fact that it's mostly eighth notes etc.

    In the following video Ruslan talks about shapes which can be moved to any degree of a chord scale etc. I think there's also an element of THAT alluded to in the term "patterns", at least the way I see people using it.



    The intro also points out that many of the earlier patterns are more basic rudiments upon which more MUSICAL patterns are built.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-02-2019 at 07:40 PM.

  12. #36
    Pattern 76 at 132 bpm

    sorry about the audio quality.

  13. #37

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    This one makes me feel like I don't know how to play at all! Ugh.
    Time to move on. Maybe it will be easier later. Hope so!


  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    What is the difference between a lick and a pattern?

    Just saying.
    So far in this book, all we've seen are patterns, no licks. To me, patterns are abstracted and applied bits of info, such as 'triads in half steps' and you can start anywhere you like. Or digital patterns such as 1235. Or even that beginning technique exercise where you play 1234 on each successive string from low E to high. Scales and arpeggios are patterns.

    As Matt said, licks are more specific: the "Cry Me A River" lick or the "Honeysuckle Rose" lick or the "Gone But Not Forgotten" lick.

    If you visit the bopland.org site, you will see that the description, "A collection of beautiful melodic ideas for improvising musicians."
    "Melodic ideas" may be the key to distinguish a lick (or phrase) from a pattern. Patterns are used a lot in improvisation but melodies, which may contain patterns, are usually more melodic. (Jazz musicians like to say they want their improvisations to be as good as, or better than, the melody of the tune but they aren't. Lester Young could improvise a singable solo, and so could Charlie Christian. Few others can match them for that.)

    BopLand.org - The Database Of Jazz Licks

  15. #39

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    Imo, there is no clear difference between a lick and many Coker Patterns. As Matt said there is no clear answer. I meant my question re: lick vs pattern to be rhetorical which is why I followed it with "just saying". At a minimum the distinction is pretty subjective.

    Mark talks of melody as being more like a lick and not being something like 1,3,5... but the Star Spangle Banner melody starts with a 5 3 1 3 5 1. Matt mentioned that pattern 58 was the same as the theme melody of some show he remembers from the past. Pattern 57 and 58, very much licks, imo. 1,2,3,5, was that the first pattern? That is also a lick imo.

    Listen to what Erik did with lick 58, that is good lick playing imo, where a lick can be manipilated and morphed into a bunch of different lines. That is also what I was trying to do with lick 57.

    Some have said that the patterns aren't musical but are valuable as exercises. I think they are musical, one just has to use their creativity and imagination, i.e. improvise. Well illustrated by what Erik did with pattern 58.

  16. #40
    One distinction would be that the term "1235" is definitely a PATTERN, and I mean those rhythmless numbers by themselves. Once you start incorporating various rhythms, I don't think that you're getting more towards something that's a lick maybe?

    Maybe combining melodic patterns and rhythmic patterns is more like creating licks?

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    One distinction would be that the term "1235" is definitely a PATTERN, and I mean those rhythmless numbers by themselves. Once you start incorporating various rhythms, I don't think that you're getting more towards something that's a lick maybe?

    Maybe combining melodic patterns and rhythmic patterns is more like creating licks?
    Frank Vignola stresses the rhythms of great jazz tunes. And some not-so-great but still fun to play ones such as "When You're Smiling," "Ain't She Sweet", "China Boy", "Dinah" et al. The rhythm makes the melody grab you. And using those rhythms with different notes makes your improv appealing. ;o)

  18. #42
    I don't know if anyone has looked ahead at these, but they're pretty substantial. We need to discuss how we want these to go, how long we want to spend on them, how many positions we might want to do, whether we want to work on them contiguously with other non-triad patterns. We could skip them altogether or delay I suppose. I don't want to get bogged down here or for the thread to basically die. We came close with the intervallic patterns I think. :-)

    Anyway, I did a good bit of work on these about a couple of months ago while working Barry Harris - Patterns-for-Jazz-Style. I feel like these are pretty important, but they're serious business if you already have some decent technique together. I'll make a video in a little while and discuss what I'm thinking in terms of options for sequencing this and possible approaches.

    I'm attaching files here for how I've been playing these. I just made them today, and I've fixed all of the typos I could find. Please let me know of other errors. Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I don't know if anyone has looked ahead at these, but they're pretty substantial. We need to discuss how we want these to go, how long we want to spend on them, how many positions we might want to do, whether we want to work on them contiguously with other non-triad patterns. We could skip them altogether or delay I suppose. I don't want to get bogged down here or for the thread to basically die. We came close with the intervallic patterns I think. :-)
    I haven't been looking ahead (-I'm having enough trouble keeping up!) You're right, these do look like a substantial investment of time and focus. But they're sure to be worth it. (My 2 cents)

    If they seem to be stalling the group, we could skip them in terms of timed assignments but encourage people to post their work on them as they get it done. This way, the group would chug along on other things while we all take the time we need to Really Get This Down.

    Thanks for the charts!

  20. #44
    Thoughts on diatonic triads patterns. Different approaches etc:

  21. #45
    Here are updated fingerings which are more like a straight 1-octave "Triad scales" for each position (except for one). I talked about this somewhat in the above video. I think I will probably practice and post these using this standard. Please let me know of typos.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  22. #46

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    76 Did this one chromatic

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Here are updated fingerings which are more like a straight 1-octave "Triad scales" for each position (except for one). I talked about this somewhat in the above video. I think I will probably practice and post these using this standard. Please let me know of typos.
    Nice work, I’m saving these pdfs for 79 and onwards.

  24. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser
    Nice work, I’m saving these pdfs for 79 and onwards.
    Thanks. I really like your phrase endings you tagged on for 76 by the way. Nice work.

  25. #49

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    Triads...

    Matt that is a good approach.

    I also like that you say it's not necessarily a rule. I like the freedom to try other approaches sometimes.

    For me the biggest hurdle is the tempos. As I try to catch up (while chasing a moving target), I haven't been taking these to tempo. Although there definately is a benefit if one does take it to tempo. For me, to tempo really makes me work on the right hand technique. Some of these faster tempos may be undoable for me though.

    Taking them at slower tempos I'm able to go off the page and run the pattern all around the neck while avoiding playing anything worked out and memorized. This brings in more fretboard learning.
    Last edited by fep; 11-09-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  26. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Some of these faster tempos may be undoable for me though.

    Taking them at slower tempos I'm able to go off the page and run the pattern all around the neck while avoiding playing anything worked out and memorized. This brings in more fretboard learning.
    Re faster tempos,....me too.


    Re "worked out and memorized", it's weird, but I feel like a lot of this for me is working BOTH aspects at the same time. Really knowing where things are and not just playing memorized rote finger patterns , ...but I also like to get things to the point where I don't have to think for faster tempo etc. it's weirddoing this over many months, you come tolearn different things from each one.

    One of the things for me is that it's all ear training basically. Teaching my fingers to hear. Interestingly, last night, I was playing pattern 78 I think? Anyway, it's a variation of the previous two . I play through a lot of different ways in the beginning just working technique. So, I was doing the TV thing.

    At one point, I found myself thinking "wait a minute. You're playing that previous pattern again ", because it simply felt similar . It was just an unconscious "hearing thing", as if I'd already played it for a week or so. When I checked it, I realized it was correct and that I was basically just hearing it pretty well and already knew the notes from the previous one. Just strange sensation , how I could kind of hear it and play it faster than I could think, or basically not thinking at all.

    Anyway, I have always been kind of familiar with that feeling in a lot of ways as a player, but never really in seven positions at once. It's a peculiar sensation. This process has been profound for me personally.