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  1. #1

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    For years, I focused on intervals and named note combinations.
    For perhaps the last decade, I've also integrated a vantage point centered around shape.
    The almost but not quite symmetrical standard tuning of the guitar means
    that the same shape will yield different musical results depending on the
    intervallic relationship between the strings in play.

    2 note shape example

    -----------------------------------2--------------------------------2---------------------2--------------2-------2---
    ----------------------------2---1---------------------------2---------------------2--------------2-------------------
    ---------------------2---1---------------------------2----------1---------2-----------------------------------------
    --------------2---1--------------------------2-----------1----------------------------1------------------------------
    ------2----1--------------------------------------1----------------------------1----------------------1--------------
    ---1---------------------------------------1-----------------------------1---------------------1--------------1-----

    Within my shape paradigm, all of the above are all variants of the same shape.
    Interval content includes: b5/#4 and P4, ma7 and m7, ma10 and m10, b13, b9(8ve)
    This shape can be played by fingers 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-4

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -----1-----etc---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --2-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is the mirror image shape. Interval content includes: ma3 and m3, ma6 and m6, ma9 and b9, #11, ma7(8ve) This shape can be played with 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, 3-1, 4-2, 4-1

    Once fingers are in place for two notes, each fingering allows for different
    additional notes to be accessed.

    3 note D chord shape

    --------------------------1---------------------1--------------1-------1---------------------1---------------1----
    --------------------1---2---------------1-------------1------------------------------1----2--------1-------------
    ---------------1--2---1---------1-----------2---------------------------------1---2----------------------2------
    ------1-----2---1---------------------2---1----------------2----------------2----------1--------2---------------
    ----2-----1--------------------2----1---------------2----1---------2------------1----------------------1--------
    --1---------------------------1---------------------1--------------1--------1-------------------1-------------------


    ------1-----------------1----------1----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------------1-----2----------2-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------2------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----2---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------1-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --1-------1------------------1----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All of the above are variants of the same shape.
    Interval content incudes 1-b5-b7 and 1-b5-ma6 and 1-4-ma6, 1-b5-m10 and 1-b5-ma9,
    1-b5-5(8ve), 1-b5-8(8ve), 1-ma7-m10 and 1-ma7-9 and 1-b7-9, 1-ma7-5(8ve), 1-ma7-8(8ve),
    1-ma10-5(8ve) and 1-m10-5(8ve), 1-b13-8(8ve)
    Fingering possibilities: 1-2-1, 2-3-2, 3-4-3, 1-3-2, 2-4-3

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------2---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------1------etc.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----2---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The D7/F#o shape is the mirror image of the D shape.
    Intervals include: ma3-b7 and ma3-ma6 and m3-m6, ma3-#9 and ma3-ma9, ma3-5(8ve),
    ma3-8(8ve), ma6-m10 and ma6-ma9 and m6-ma9, ma6-5(8ve), ma6-8(8ve), ma9-5(8ve)
    and b9-5(8ve), #11-8(8ve)
    Fingerings: 2-1-3, 3-2-4, 3-1-4

    With 3 note shapes, there emerges increasing limitations on what additional notes
    can be successfully accessed.

    Enough intervallic bean counting.
    Exploring the physicality of shapes allows for an organized mechanical
    practice. There are only so many shapes (interval combinations) that are physically
    possible to play simultaneously. It is likely that previously unknown structures will
    be revealed. Some of this material sounds good and can be easily integrated.
    Other content may be useful some day in the future and some perhaps useless
    now and forever. Anyway, a mechanical approach involves little to no thought to
    get your fingers into a position. Once in place, the what, when and why will need to
    be considered.
    Last edited by bako; 08-20-2019 at 02:26 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Learning to feel greater comfort with silence as a musician is important and has been a slow,
    gradual evolution for me.

    On the other hand, on the relatively rare moments that I start a thread on this forum,
    it is my hope to actively engage with what I imagine to be a common interest community.
    If anyone is out there, make some noise.

  4. #3

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    Don't take the lack of response personally, bako. You have a history of great posts on this site, a history that goes back many years.

    But, it is not like it was 4 or 5 years ago. It seems these days, there are not as many people on this forum who have a strong desire to discuss different approaches to enhance their improvisational abilities. I noticed first noticed this with Irez, who recently left the forum. He was on fire for Jazz Guitar but did not get much participation, and what participation he did get seemed to turn into arguments.

    Maybe I am wrong, but it sure seems to be the case.

    I am guilty of this as well, since I have found out that it takes more time than I have or am willing to give to really understand a person's conceptual presentation and fully explore it like I used to.

    I used to enjoy these flights of fancy, reading and trying out ideas and approaches that were shared. Not so much these days. I put this kind of investigation on the "backburner" for now, and I just play within rather limited abilities.

    Now, if you want to talk about gear - right or wrong you will probably get many responses.

  5. #4
    I always enjoy your posts, bako. I was being somewhat of a lazy bastard on my phone. I really never access the forum on PC anymore. Anyway, this one doesn't render well on the mobile interface, Tapatalk. Had to switch to web view...

    Looks somewhat related to digital patterns, like Mike Christiansen talked about in one of my oldest jazz method books... will have to check it out when I get back to an instrument.

  6. #5

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    Note that I didn't comment because I still don't have any idea what is being discussed.

    E.g. those 2s and 1s on the lines (which I know are stings on a guitar since there are 6).

    No idea at all what they represent.

  7. #6
    Also Ran and Matt, Thanks for engaging, it feels silly talking to myself in public.

    If standard guitar tuning was symmetrical, then all shapes would be synonymous
    with intervals. A focus on intervals leads to 2 or more shape variants.
    A focus on shape leads to 2 or more variants of intervallic content.

    Within a paradigm that I created for myself, a shape is related by it's shape,
    regardless what string groups are in play. This reduces the number of shapes
    exponentially by creating these related families as I documented in post #1.

    I am not selling or even recommending anything. I am simply sharing some
    thoughts and observations about something I hadn't noticed being discussed
    on the forum before in this way.

    Shape is a simplistic idea that requires almost no prerequisite knowledge.
    A shape simply dictates a collection of locations to place your fingers.
    On the mechanics side of the equation, playing a shape with alternate fingerings
    can help prepare the hands for different physical contingencies that may arise.
    On the exploration side, shape can be a thorough inventory taking of all simultaneous
    sound available within our human hand limits.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    Note that I didn't comment because I still don't have any idea what is being discussed.

    E.g. those 2s and 1s on the lines (which I know are stings on a guitar since there are 6).

    No idea at all what they represent.
    They are fret numbers. Format is standard tablature which was more efficient for
    the forum format than making a multiple chord diagram pdf scan or notation with
    string and fingering annotations.

    So the 1st batch of 1 2's represent: F-B, Bb-E,Eb-A,Ab-Db and C-F#
    Last edited by bako; 08-24-2019 at 07:19 AM.

  9. #8

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    Ha, ha.

    You have exposed one of my many limitations. In this case, I am no good with using that sort of notation. The way the notes line up it looks like a scale, and I have trouble separating the shapes from one another.

    Poor so-and-so that I am, I need each possibility separately spelled out in a chord diagram, at least on the first few go-arounds.

    But I think I get the gist of it, which is similar to what Pat Martino does with the diminished shape. I take it that you are saying memorize a shape and build alternate chords off it by moving a note on a given string one fret higher or lower while keeping the others in place.

  10. #9

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    bako...

    always enjoy your posts..lots of insight into the nature of the illogical layout of the guitar..

    some of the replies hit a good point..to many long time players..like myself..using basic finger patterns is not as important
    as discovering new melodic patterns to incorporate into our playing..and using partial chord fragments as subs in
    progressions..

    lately my studies are going back over basic triads and their inversions in different intervals .. this is a study from a horn (sax) players outlook..
    and expanding melodic ideas over the chords..and the old becomes new..

    so while your exercise may seem very simple..applying it to different positions along with established scales and progressions may
    indeed open a new door ..

    the keys to discovery in music are endless
    play well ...
    wolf

  11. #10
    But I think I get the gist of it, which is similar to what Pat Martino does with the diminished shape. I take it that you are saying memorize a shape and build alternate chords off it by moving a note on a given string one fret higher or lower while keeping the others in place.
    Pat Martino was focusing on the symmetrical intervallic nature of diminished chords.
    The o7 is 4 chords simultaneously. Therefore, performing the same alteration to any
    of the notes will yield an inversion of the same structure.

    In this thread, my surface focus is on shape, which when applied to
    the almost but not quite symmetrical tuning of the guitar, will often
    yield different results. I am progressing from pure mechanics > content > application.

    Example in a format perhaps easier to follow:

    4 note shape

    A Eb G C# X X ............ X D Ab C F X ................... X X G C# E Bb

    A Eb G X F X ............ X D Ab C X Bb

    A Eb G X X Bb

    A Eb X C F X .............. X D Ab X E Bb

    A Eb X C X Bb

    A D# X X E Bb

    A X G# C F X ................ X D X C# E Bb

    A X G# C X Bb

    A X G# X E Bb

    A X X C# E Bb

    Organizing my thinking around string groups in play is something I learned during my 3 lessons with Pat Martino. Pat depicted string groups using the I-Ching.
    There are 15 string groups of 4 notes on a 6 string guitar.

    The common element that unites the above structures is shape.

    I spoke about adding a note to a given structure because once a finger is in place,
    limitations appear as to what else can be reached. Alternate fingerings when possible,
    expand our choices as to what additional notes can be incorporated into the chord
    structure.

  12. #11
    lately my studies are going back over basic triads and their inversions in different intervals .. this is a study from a horn (sax) players outlook..
    and expanding melodic ideas over the chords..and the old becomes new..
    Can you expand on this a little?

    the keys to discovery in music are endless
    I noticed this as well.

  13. #12

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    Now I see what you are getting at! Thanks for putting it in a format that I can more readily digest. It is an interesting approach that might yield some results, for me. In fact, I have kind of done this but only with a few chords.

    I will study it further from the beginning. You have pulled me in.

  14. #13
    Along my learning path, I have found it helpful to expand on relationships that I discover.
    The "endlessness" that wolfen describes is very true and at times can be overwhelming.
    Using "comparative" learning for me, makes the musical universe feel ever so slightly
    more manageable.

    Two basic examples of this:

    1. 7th Arpeggios

    Starting reference: 1357 becomes

    1357 135b7 13#57 13#5b7 13b57 13b5b7 ect.

    This is based on the notion of the relationship between structures that each have a
    common root and some kind of 3, 5 and 7.

    2. applied to a diatonic environment

    CEGB DFAC EGBD FACE etc.

    This is based on a starting structure moving along the degrees of a scale and
    see what we get.

    Shape as a comparative tool was slower to emerge for me, because it's relativity
    springs from mechanics which are then subject to the idiosyncrasies of guitar tuning.



  15. #14

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    [QUOTE=bako;974430]Can you expand on this a little?

    sure...taking some dom7th(9-11-13 etc) chord inversions and fragments..building a chord series going from I7 to V7 flavors (C7to G7) in this case:--a jazzy blues flavor results

    fret
    12 G
    13 Bb
    14 E

    13 Bb
    14 E
    14 A
    13 C

    this could be seen as a fragment of C7 into a C13

    now lower these one whole step and reverse them..Bb13 to Bb7

    lower these one whole step to Ab13 - Ab7

    lower a half step finish the sequence on a G13

    now this could lead into a decending C7 Chord sequense

    now there are some very basic shapes here ..the "A minor shape" in the 13 chords for example and a partial inversion of a dom 9th/mi7b5 found in the 7th chords (C7 -Bb E G).

    now playing on top of this kind of sequence which could also be seen as a turnaround I7 bVII7 BVi7 V7.--with rythmic and harmonic variation this is a very tasty chord run used
    as backround fills on some jazz blues and standards

    this of course gives wide latitude to use many melodic subs over this group..treating them as just one harmonic device or decending whole step chords

    G melodic minor .. AbAlt .. Db diminished .. Chromatic runs.. and other scales and fragments found in them could compliment such a chord sequense

    Bobby Stern who posts some lesson on this board has one with various triad shapes in intervals of half step whole step major and minor thirds.
    and in going over the exercises seeing these basic chords interchange with each other this way some new melodic ideas appeared to me

    thus.. some great blues (jazz and rock) players can get so much milage out of 3 and four notes
    play well ...
    wolf