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  1. #51
    For anyone who has been following this thread or used to follow it, I'd encourage you to look at each pattern 68 on page 32 and consider joining in or joining back in can we get there in about a week and half. These are really good basic targeting patterns . They're a lot of fun and good material to play over. Diatonic Arps follow that, and then it's onto dominant material , which should be a good bit easier than the material we're in right now honestly.

    I'm having guitar issues currently. I've just ordered a new electro socket jack for my tele. Been giving me fits for a while. I'll try to get # 63 and 64 up in the next few days. Maybe 62 as well.

    Regardless of my progress on these current intervallic studies, I'm probably going to just be aiming to post pattern 68 etc. when the time comes aroundin the actual schedule. May catch up on some of the intervallic stuff later. It's actually really good technical work.

    Butt this seems like possibly a good place for somewhat of a reboot our for new folks.

    All the best,

    Matt

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    For anyone who has been following this thread or used to follow it, I'd encourage you to look at each pattern 68 on page 32 and consider joining in or joining back in can we get there in about a week and half.
    I looked at 'em, Matt. They do look good. I'm not wild about the description given (#2 and #4). It's not wrong. But it's more troublesome than "note below the chord tone." The notes of the triad are the main notes. If you know them, going note-below (or note-above) can be done without having to think about it. A big plus. ;o)

    These are important patterns. Foundational.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #53

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    Cool! Does that mean I can skip all the patterns I'm behind on?


    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    For anyone who has been following this thread or used to follow it, I'd encourage you to look at each pattern 68 on page 32 and consider joining in or joining back in can we get there in about a week and half. These are really good basic targeting patterns . They're a lot of fun and good material to play over. Diatonic Arps follow that, and then it's onto dominant material , which should be a good bit easier than the material we're in right now honestly.

    I'm having guitar issues currently. I've just ordered a new electro socket jack for my tele. Been giving me fits for a while. I'll try to get # 63 and 64 up in the next few days. Maybe 62 as well.

    Regardless of my progress on these current intervallic studies, I'm probably going to just be aiming to post pattern 68 etc. when the time comes aroundin the actual schedule. May catch up on some of the intervallic stuff later. It's actually really good technical work.

    Butt this seems like possibly a good place for somewhat of a reboot our for new folks.

    All the best,

    Matt
    Sounds good, Matt! Hope you get your gear up and running! We are heading for the more interesting parts of the book, so anyone reading this and Matts post this is a great place to jump in, you can always work with the earlier patterns in parallel, later or just skip them.
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  6. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Cool! Does that mean I can skip all the patterns I'm behind on?


    I'm going to try to post everything I can . I just thought it might be fun to just kind of all get more on the same page at some point. The intervals right now are kind of a grind. I actually have grown to like the fourth patterns just for the technical aspects. At least something very different and uses techniques that probably are underutilized most of the time .

    To be honest, largely I've spent a lot of time doing a patterns- for- jazz- type process on the Barry Harris material . There's not very much overlap with that material and perfect fourths and fifths interval studies though. I'm looking forward to the next sections , just because it overlaps that material more.

  7. #56

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    Been following the thread and just picked up the book. I had hoped to really concentrate on the Pat Martino Linear Expression book but as with so many books before I lost interest/focus.

    Patterns for Jazz seems like a great book to just have around and pick a page to work on get multiple benefits: sight reading, technique and new ideas.

    Moving the patterns chromatically seems more like a technical exercise then a musical one. I will start messing around with NO. 68.

    Any other "musical" patterns any of you can recommend?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I'm going to try to post everything I can . I just thought it might be fun to just kind of all get more on the same page at some point. The intervals right now are kind of a grind. I actually have grown to like the fourth patterns just for the technical aspects. At least something very different and uses techniques that probably are underutilized most of the time .

    To be honest, largely I've spent a lot of time doing a patterns- for- jazz- type process on the Barry Harris material . There's not very much overlap with that material and perfect fourths and fifths interval studies though. I'm looking forward to the next sections , just because it overlaps that material more.


    I'm going to keep working through the stuff. Scales in intervals is so highly recommend by just about every teacher for guitar as well as every other instrument. It's something I've largly neglected except for 3rds and need to spend some quality time with even outside of working through this book.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  9. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes View Post
    Been following the thread and just picked up the book. I had hoped to really concentrate on the Pat Martino Linear Expression book but as with so many books before I lost interest/focus.

    Patterns for Jazz seems like a great book to just have around and pick a page to work on get multiple benefits: sight reading, technique and new ideas.

    Moving the patterns chromatically seems more like a technical exercise then a musical one. I will start messing around with NO. 68.

    Any other "musical" patterns any of you can recommend?
    Do you mean "musical" as opposed to chromatic etc.? If that's what you're talking about, really any of the patterns which are triad-based can be applied to a blues or rhythm changes etc.

    in about a week, like I said, it's a triad baddest pattern. So, we could lay out what it would look like to apply to blues and rhythm changes etc., like Barry Harris does. Going forward, dominant is the focusfor a while. With the dominant and the major we've already done, you basically can apply a lot of material to rhythm changes and blues especially.

  10. #59

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    Yes. I didn't see the point of practicing them chromatically as that would rarely occur in a song. I understand that it would help to really learn the pattern. I do this for enjoyment so I like playing stuff that is nice to listen to. Chromatic patters sound like an exercise.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes View Post
    Yes. I didn't see the point of practicing them chromatically as that would rarely occur in a song. I understand that it would help to really learn the pattern. I do this for enjoyment so I like playing stuff that is nice to listen to. Chromatic patters sound like an exercise.

    I agree that the chromatic sequences have very little musical value alone. Doing that sort of stuff makes more sense on a horn where chromatic things can be the hardest thing to play. In order to sequence chromatically you really have to know your keys (musical keys and mechanical keys).

    I've been doing most of the chromatic sequences in the open position just to force myself to have to think about what I'm playing rather than just move the shape up a fret.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  12. #61
    I don't really think it's about playing things that you're going to play on actual tunes necessarily. If anything, the randomization thing really helps with a lot of things. I really like having all four of the cycles to play through in position and cross-positionally. The halfstep progressions are very often entry-level for me, especially being guitar.

    A progression of fourths is pretty natural and a big part of the tradition. They have the most strong relationship to each other in terms of key signature anyway. Full steps are easy enough. Honestly, the minor third cycles are probably the best for me in terms of true pattern disruption and letting go of "thinking too much". They very often get me to another level of understanding /not-thinking, but I certainly couldn't start there with beginning woodshed material. That's where the half steps around fourths come in for me.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-01-2019 at 08:29 AM.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    I've been doing most of the chromatic sequences in the open position just to force myself to have to think about what I'm playing rather than just move the shape up a fret.
    The first place I dealt with chromatic patterns was in Mickey Baker's book. There, he is clear that he wants them fingered the same way all the way up the neck (or as far as one can comfortably go on the guitar one has). The value of that exercise is just to get the pattern down cold and also to play it in various places. It also facilitates consistency in one's picking because the fingering does not change.

    I think it's important to know how to play things in various ways. But I think the number of practical ways is small. (And not the same for everyone: guitars, hands, and habits vary.)

    Frank Vignola teaches "101 ways to play a C scale", so I know that some great players really want to play things as many different ways as they can. (Mimi Fox seems to suggest a similar thing in her book of arpeggio studies on jazz standards.) If that's your thing, fine. It can definitely work.

    But it wasn't the thing for, say, Joe Pass. He played everything out of a few simple barre forms and is known for saying, "If something is hard to play, I don't play it!" and "There's no point killing yourself for no reason." Herb Ellis played out of chord shapes and cautioned students NOT to waste time on all possible scale fingerings, modes and the like but to focus on the most useful things, the things one can actually play while improvising.

    And then there's Pat Martino of the "Linear Expressions" era: everything was played out of a few minor chord shapes with no (big) stretches. It's amazing to watch Pat play and see how good he sounds doing something that seems almost too-simple to really work. But boy does it!

    Practice is for performance. That's how I see it, anyway.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    The first place I dealt with chromatic patterns was in Mickey Baker's book. There, he is clear that he wants them fingered the same way all the way up the neck (or as far as one can comfortably go on the guitar one has). The value of that exercise is just to get the pattern down cold and also to play it in various places. It also facilitates consistency in one's picking because the fingering does not change.

    I think it's important to know how to play things in various ways. But I think the number of practical ways is small. (And not the same for everyone: guitars, hands, and habits vary.)

    I agree there's value in it, just not a direct musical value. I spent the requisite hours running scale and arpeggio shapes up and down the neck one-fret-at-a-time and whole-heartedly recommend that sort of thing to anyone looking to develop basic technique and learn their way around the fingerboard.

    What I don't like about that sort of thing is it's never backed up with equal amounts of finding the notes you need right under your hand instead of chasing root notes around on the E and A strings. Even if you eschew finger stretches in favor of keeping the hand restricted to four or five frets, there's an entire chromatic universe available anywhere you place your hand on the fingerboard.

    Pat Martino's instructional material actually provided the inspiration for how I'm approaching this stuff. He repeatedly demonstates being able to play in any key anywhere and everywhere on the fingerboard without hesitation.

    Working through Linear Expressions drove home to me that I haven't spent enough hours changing keys in one position and paying attention to the notes involved while doing so.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  15. #64
    Alright, I apologize for dropping the ball on this. September snuck up on me. Anyway, the 1st was on a Sunday this month.

    I still propose that we basically aim for all of us rebooting/catching up for the Sep 8 assignment of 68-71. I've also done something a little different, to change things up for September. The next week, after that, will be the same pattern - applied to blues changes. Then, we do the same thing on week 4-5, with week 5 being application of patterns on rhythm changes.

    Let me know what you think about this format. Here's the link to September:
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-02-2019 at 10:58 PM.

  16. #65

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    I’m in the middle of moving to a new apartment and building a home recording studio, so most of my gear is in boxes. I’ll rejoin during the catching up week.
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  17. #66

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    Hurricane Dorian put all normal activities on hold around me. (The Sunday paper included the Monday paper, and today's--Wednesday--included the Tuesday paper too.) Prep, anxiety, communication, waiting, distraction. But in the end, it amounted to nothing for me and mine. We are grateful. But practice has suffered. Even when I had the time, I often lacked focus.

    Switched back to a Jazz III pick, so at least I accomplished something!

    Hope to record the 5ths exercises and be ready for Bold New Phase (with non-scale tones thrown in; already practicing those some.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  18. #67
    Acoustic recording from the thin line:


    Patterns 63-64 without a click... and with as few mistakes as I could manage.

  19. #68

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    63

    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Hurricane Dorian put all normal activities on hold around me. (The Sunday paper included the Monday paper, and today's--Wednesday--included the Tuesday paper too.) Prep, anxiety, communication, waiting, distraction. But in the end, it amounted to nothing for me and mine. We are grateful. But practice has suffered. Even when I had the time, I often lacked focus.

    Switched back to a Jazz III pick, so at least I accomplished something!

    Hope to record the 5ths exercises and be ready for Bold New Phase (with non-scale tones thrown in; already practicing those some.)
    Good to hear you’re alright!
    Last edited by ErikWasser; 09-09-2019 at 05:02 PM.
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  21. #70

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    63/64 100bpm. Edit: don’t mind the glove, winter is coming here in Norway.
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  22. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser View Post


    63/64 100bpm. Edit: don’t mind the glove, winter is coming here in Norway.
    Oy. 100 degrees Fahrenheit here yesterday. A little better today.

    Good job on this, Erik. Thanks for posting!

  23. #72

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    Took some liberties, trying to catch up... (such as no pants )

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    The first place I dealt with chromatic patterns was in Mickey Baker's book. There, he is clear that he wants them fingered the same way all the way up the neck (or as far as one can comfortably go on the guitar one has). The value of that exercise is just to get the pattern down cold and also to play it in various places. It also facilitates consistency in one's picking because the fingering does not change.

    I think it's important to know how to play things in various ways. But I think the number of practical ways is small. (And not the same for everyone: guitars, hands, and habits vary.)

    Frank Vignola teaches "101 ways to play a C scale", so I know that some great players really want to play things as many different ways as they can. (Mimi Fox seems to suggest a similar thing in her book of arpeggio studies on jazz standards.) If that's your thing, fine. It can definitely work.

    But it wasn't the thing for, say, Joe Pass. He played everything out of a few simple barre forms and is known for saying, "If something is hard to play, I don't play it!" and "There's no point killing yourself for no reason." Herb Ellis played out of chord shapes and cautioned students NOT to waste time on all possible scale fingerings, modes and the like but to focus on the most useful things, the things one can actually play while improvising.

    And then there's Pat Martino of the "Linear Expressions" era: everything was played out of a few minor chord shapes with no (big) stretches. It's amazing to watch Pat play and see how good he sounds doing something that seems almost too-simple to really work. But boy does it!

    Practice is for performance. That's how I see it, anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    I agree there's value in it, just not a direct musical value. I spent the requisite hours running scale and arpeggio shapes up and down the neck one-fret-at-a-time and whole-heartedly recommend that sort of thing to anyone looking to develop basic technique and learn their way around the fingerboard.

    What I don't like about that sort of thing is it's never backed up with equal amounts of finding the notes you need right under your hand instead of chasing root notes around on the E and A strings. Even if you eschew finger stretches in favor of keeping the hand restricted to four or five frets, there's an entire chromatic universe available anywhere you place your hand on the fingerboard.

    Pat Martino's instructional material actually provided the inspiration for how I'm approaching this stuff. He repeatedly demonstates being able to play in any key anywhere and everywhere on the fingerboard without hesitation.

    Working through Linear Expressions drove home to me that I haven't spent enough hours changing keys in one position and paying attention to the notes involved while doing so.

    .
    I think there is merit in both and also depends on where you are on your path and where you see yourself headed and what you are working on.

    For me, if I'm working on picking faster then I'll make the fingerings more uniform. But, I also like to work on fretboard knowledge and dexterity so I'll work on the multiple fingerings.

    Either way, I want to be attached to chord grips that I already know when playing the lines. That still leaves me with a lot of fingering variations.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    But it wasn't the thing for, say, Joe Pass. He played everything out of a few simple barre forms and is known for saying, "If something is hard to play, I don't play it!" and "There's no point killing yourself for no reason." Herb Ellis played out of chord shapes and cautioned students NOT to waste time on all possible scale fingerings, modes and the like but to focus on the most useful things, the things one can actually play while improvising.
    Joe Pass is famous for understatement. If you watch his playing it's a lot more than a few simple barre forms. He could play through complex progressions in one position and he plays up and done the neck over one chord. Regardless of what he may have said, he clearly mastered the fretboard up and down and sideways. My understanding is he used CAGED as his landmarks. With CAGED you can play over all chords in one position and over any one chord all over the neck.

    Tons of examples of both in this recording, for example 3:20

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Joe Pass is famous for understatement. If you watch his playing it's a lot more than a few simple barre forms. He could play through complex progressions in one position and he plays up and done the neck over one chord. Regardless of what he may have said, he clearly mastered the fretboard up and down and sideways. My understanding is he used CAGED as his landmarks. With CAGED you can play over all chords in one position and over any one chord all over the neck.

    Tons of examples of both in this recording, for example 3:20
    I don't think there's a contradiction in saying Joe mastered the fretboard AND he played out of barre forms. And yes, it was CAGED. It's not my claim that he did that; it's his claim. And Ron Eschete figured out the same fingerings after listening to Joe; later he talked to Joe about it and Joe told him he'd gotten it right. So whatever chord he was playing, he knew all the notes around it. His fills are like that: very handy. ;o)

    You know, some people think 3 NPS scale patterns are better because you have a position for each tone of the scale. But for people who think in terms of chords, CAGED works fine because most chords have only two or three inversions. Even if you use extensions such as b9 and a #5, you're likely fretting no more than four notes and that means three inversions...

    Jimmy Bruno uses the same fingerings as Joe used (and taught) and says they're all you need to play whatever you want. He's another guy who focuses on tunes and chords, but he can burn when he wants to.

    Mimi Fox studied some with Joe. She's certainly a contemporary master. In her books, she uses the same inversions of chords the Joe and Jimmy use. (6432 and 5432 mostly). If you think in terms of chords, that's just how the guitar seems to be laid out. (Obviously, 3NPS players disagree.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I don't think there's a contradiction in saying Joe mastered the fretboard AND he played out of barre forms. And yes, it was CAGED. It's not my claim that he did that; it's his claim. And Ron Eschete figured out the same fingerings after listening to Joe; later he talked to Joe about it and Joe told him he'd gotten it right. So whatever chord he was playing, he knew all the notes around it. His fills are like that: very handy. ;o)
    I believe everthing can be related to simple barre chords or CAGED. Given that somethimes you are moving form one form to another while playing the line. I'm always attached to CAGED chord forms and the intervals of those forms when playing the exercises, even when I'm playing in one part of the neck.

    As an extension these patterns can all be related to chord forms and at the same time be played in one part of the neck without overly relying on sliding the same pattern up the neck. All these different patterns can lead to certain "guitaristic paths". I like the guitar to sound like a guitar with all the guitar embelishments and idiosycrasies. I probaly need a video to adequately explain this thought.

    The one pattern up the neck for me is a picking exercise for the most part as it is much easier on the brain and the left hand. But the one form sliding up the neck doesn't help fretboard knowledge or the ear, imo. Still, I will do it as a picking and speed exercise.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  28. #77

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    I like to do the exercise in minor 3rds the best as that keeps me on my toes. I really don't like the half steps.

    I'm thinking of the pattern as a theme or motif, and coming up with variations of that theme. Trying to use the idiosyncrasies of the guitar, sliding, bending, hammer ons, pull offs. The different fingerings will yeild different articulations, one reason to practice a big variety of fingerings for these exercises.

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by ErikWasser View Post
    Messing around with 58.
    Wow this is so good.

    Even if I didn't know you were playing an exercise, if you were just jamming, I'd still say... Wow this is so good. Congrats.

    I think this is a great example of what can be done using these patterns or in this case on of these patterns as a launching point. And, these patterns are usable and musical.

    As and aside, is that a Guitar synth? If so it is tracking incredible well, even the glissandos!!
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post

    As and aside, is that a Guitar synth? If so it is tracking incredible well, even the glissandos!!
    Thanks a lot, Fep. And I really enjoyed how you “telefied” number 57!

    Synth sounds on guitar are great. This is a patch on the Helix which emulates different GR500 sounds. So far the best synth guitar tracking I’ve found (the Meris Enzo is also pretty good, but a pain in the ass to dial in), but the patch is way to complicated for me, so any edits I’ve made of it sounded horrible. Midi guitar and different synths are the most fun, with endless possibilities, but harder to control. Whatever the patch or software, a balanced output and a precise pick helps, though.
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  31. #80

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    58 & 59, I think just 100 bpm, but that is all the patience I have for these.

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  32. #81
    58/59 always made me think of npr's all things considered...

  33. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    58 & 59, I think just 100 bpm, but that is all the patience I have for these.

    Sounds good to me, Frank. You always seem to make these sound more musical than just an exercise anyway.

  34. #83

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    Ex 60, this one instead of all keys I instead did it in the 5 CAGED positions I use. All in the key of D going up the neck.

    Trying to catch up, just one session for each pattern for the time being.

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    58/59 always made me think of npr's all things considered...
    Hahaha! Maybe that was the temp music used in editing? (Edit: horrible English)
    Instagram: @eriksguitarpicks

  36. #85

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    Warts and all, tried to work this horizontally, vertically and diagonally

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)