The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... don't look to white guys for funk lessons... unless your after rock funk.
    #shortsighted

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC-Choppah
    I have played a lot of funk and was around that style a lot growing up. Got back into it recently. One of the things I have figured out that helped me get a good funk sound was to try and copy what I heard Niles Rodgers doing, like on 'She's up all night to get lucky', which is the same sound as 'Awww Freak Out!' - Get your strat setup with heavy strings and high action and play on the neck pickup.

    You can hit the strings hard with a heavy pick, and the strings wont hit the frets. You can't play these funk sounds with thin strings and low action you get sort of a pinched off sound when the strings hit the frets.

    So I have an American Strat setup this way and I pull it out when I want that funk rythm sound.

    You need to work on your swing rythm feel too and learn how to play with varying amount of swing. That is part of the funk groove.

    I once did a recording session for Karaoke backing track of Le Freak. I was supposed to exactly reproduce the original guitar part, so I listened to the track repeatedly to get it down. There are all these subtle little variations in swing and feel to the basic lick/part; what sounds like the same thing over and over again really is not. Figuring it out was a real education. Nile's time/rhythm concept is quite something.

    John

  4. #28

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    Yes... by rock I generally mean the downbeat thing... which leo tends to feel.... here's a vid of Old TOP with carlos.


    listen to Rhythm section (not carlos... love um, but he's not funky) Chester, Rocco and Garibaldi... lock the pocket down.
    And Tommy on tenor can kill it...

    generally I think of Funk feels as syn. 16th note patterns. There are lots of great funk players... that just don't really have the chops. And the feels tend to end up feeling like Rock ... Not bad or wrong

    I mean any tune can become funky... just sub-divide using 16th notes and create syn. patterns that have a call and answer rhythmic feel. Usually at least 2 bars... better when 4. Your creating a perception of repeat... with forward motion.

    need to learn how to play on top and behind the beat... with structure.... meaning you keep the feel of of the groove... and create a little tension using organized being on top or behind the pulse.

    Just like you create a syn. 16th note groove, a rhythmic pattern, you also create a push and pull of the rhythm that is also a GROOVE. There is a pattern of where you hit and accent the attacks. Yea and if you do the same with the Harmonic rhythm, the changes or melodic part... the groove will lock... becomes like one thing.

    Maybe
    Last edited by Reg; 03-21-2019 at 08:16 PM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    T
    honestly I think it's easy to overplay on guitar in this style, there are a few players that scratch 16th notes steadily, but this is not as common on the classic james brown recordings. A lot of funk is about what you don't play.
    This is an interesting subject I don't recall reading about.

    For some rhythmic music, it is much easier to stay rock solid with the time by keeping time with your right wrist. And, that's easiest if you allow yourself to scratch the strings up and down and then press on the chord with your left hand only for the sixteenths you want to sound as chords.

    For playing montunos with single notes, the only way I can do it is by keeping time with my right wrist. Without that, the time won't pop or snap the way it should.

    But, the scratching sound itself can be irritating, in which case it becomes necessary to keep the time some other way. If find that it helps to scat the sixteenth pulse, but, frankly, it's way more difficult to play just the accents than to scratch'n'press.

  6. #30

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    Doctor of Funkology

    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 03-26-2019 at 01:54 AM.

  7. #31

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    I don’t think Nile would regard himself as a funk player. The feel is different.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This is an interesting subject I don't recall reading about.

    For some rhythmic music, it is much easier to stay rock solid with the time by keeping time with your right wrist. And, that's easiest if you allow yourself to scratch the strings up and down and then press on the chord with your left hand only for the sixteenths you want to sound as chords.

    For playing montunos with single notes, the only way I can do it is by keeping time with my right wrist. Without that, the time won't pop or snap the way it should.

    But, the scratching sound itself can be irritating, in which case it becomes necessary to keep the time some other way. If find that it helps to scat the sixteenth pulse, but, frankly, it's way more difficult to play just the accents than to scratch'n'press.
    I didn’t reply right away because I find this question of anchoring the pulse to some kinaesthetic motion interesting.

    I don’t know if it’s necessary.

    For instance Jamerson played his bass lines with one finger, no ghosting.

    Musicians ability to retain pulse when there’s nothing going on can be weaker than they think. I know this for myself.

    One way to work on this is vocalise the beat while playing, either by counting or by singing a drumbeat.

    Also dancing.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I don’t think Nile would regard himself as a funk player. The feel is different.
    I don't think he'd regard himself as any one particular genre. But this whole line of discussion about how funk is only this one 16th note feel is absurd. I mean by this logic, P-Funk isn't funk.

    John

  10. #34

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    Yea... maybe not just a funk player.... but has the musical skills to cover. Nice 4 bar 16th note syn. groove with just enough on top attacks.... not that dirty or greasy... depending on where your from.... but

    Playing a style... doesn't need to be a life decision.

  11. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    This is an interesting subject I don't recall reading about.

    For some rhythmic music, it is much easier to stay rock solid with the time by keeping time with your right wrist. And, that's easiest if you allow yourself to scratch the strings up and down and then press on the chord with your left hand only for the sixteenths you want to sound as chords.

    For playing montunos with single notes, the only way I can do it is by keeping time with my right wrist. Without that, the time won't pop or snap the way it should.

    But, the scratching sound itself can be irritating, in which case it becomes necessary to keep the time some other way. If find that it helps to scat the sixteenth pulse, but, frankly, it's way more difficult to play just the accents than to scratch'n'press.
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I didn’t reply right away because I find this question of anchoring the pulse to some kinaesthetic motion interesting.

    I don’t know if it’s necessary.

    For instance Jamerson played his bass lines with one finger, no ghosting.

    Musicians ability to retain pulse when there’s nothing going on can be weaker than they think. I know this for myself.

    One way to work on this is vocalise the beat while playing, either by counting or by singing a drumbeat.

    Also dancing.
    I find this a particularly interesting topic. For me, this strong kinesthetic connection to alternation, whether played as ghost notes or not, is a very important distinction on guitar and piano/bass/drums. For me, it's always a mental reference which I feel even if I don't play. I basically approach piano the same way. Pianists and drummers have the same organizational possibilities through alternating hands, ...though bass/ guitar additionally have much more in the way of that hard release via left hand lift, which is a kind of alternating movement in and of itself. For me, any rhythmic "working out" on piano involves alternating hands, at least in thought. For singers and pianists there's very often a physical/kinesthetic thing through head movement as well.

    Anyway, I'd be really interested to know if there are actually funk guitarists who play syncopated 16th patterns who DON'T organize this way physically.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... maybe not just a funk player.... but has the musical skills to cover. Nice 4 bar 16th note syn. groove with just enough on top attacks.... not that dirty or greasy... depending on where your from.... but

    Playing a style... doesn't need to be a life decision.

    If he were still alive Gary Shider be all like "I been wearing a freakin' diaper on stage for 25 years. Don't tell me funk ain't a life decsion."

    Free your mind and your ass will follow, indeed.

    John

  13. #37

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    Yea I was wondering when it would go there....P-funk was a party, a show.... and personally too rocky, too much Bykowski.... for the show funk I liked , Grahan...GCS... Bootsy, when Harram was still around... and yea that is livin the life...

    Yea many styles of playing can and do become.... but that is the choice. Generally most need to spend their life learning how to play any style... that need to be in the moment, stars line up... magic thing... do everything ... but actually learn and understand the technical shit.... I will become....

    The chicken scratch thing.... or 16th thing.... ghost .... If one has the chops, the technical skills, you can play anything in any number of ways... the reason most keep the alternate thing going on... is the result of only being able to play the feel that way.
    Attacks can be the result of picking.... You want to get funk feel.... you need to go to church.

    (or at least play in the church band)

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea I was wondering when it would go there....P-funk was a party, a show.... and personally too rocky, too much Bykowski.... for the show funk I liked , Grahan...GCS... Bootsy, when Harram was still around... and yea that is livin the life...

    Yea many styles of playing can and do become.... but that is the choice. Generally most need to spend their life learning how to play any style... that need to be in the moment, stars line up... magic thing... do everything ... but actually learn and understand the technical shit.... I will become....

    The chicken scratch thing.... or 16th thing.... ghost .... If one has the chops, the technical skills, you can play anything in any number of ways... the reason most keep the alternate thing going on... is the result of only being able to play the feel that way.
    Attacks can be the result of picking.... You want to get funk feel.... you need to go to church.

    (or at least play in the church band)
    I think this is sort of like arguing about what swing is. Yes, you can define it as a particular range of 8th note syncopations, but that doesn't mean every instrument has to be doing that in order for the band to be swinging. Ditto for Funk. I mean if you told Leo N, or Chuck Brown, or Michael Hampton to his face that he wasn't playing funk, any of them would laugh at you. If you told them they're not playing 16th note scratch stuff, they'd say "yes, and?"

    John

  15. #39

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    hey John... maybe... But just because we're trying to technically describe what helps play a style of music.... doesn't mean it's a waste of time.

    Generally when playing funk with 16th note sub-divisions.... doesn't imply scratch. It's just a approach for notation and creating feel from.

    I was implying that the steady 16th note style,(chicken Scratch) is from lack of technique... a way of creating feel technically, that helps get one going....

    I was trying to show the difference.... rhythmically between different funk styles..... Rock funk and R&B funk....

    How did it become I'm telling people they're not playing Funk...

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I think this is sort of like arguing about what swing is. Yes, you can define it as a particular range of 8th note syncopations, but that doesn't mean every instrument has to be doing that in order for the band to be swinging. Ditto for Funk. I mean if you told Leo N, or Chuck Brown, or Michael Hampton to his face that he wasn't playing funk, any of them would laugh at you. If you told them they're not playing 16th note scratch stuff, they'd say "yes, and?"

    John
    I’ve found you can teach the basics of a feel like swing very clearly if you have the vocabulary and understanding. Nuances are always harder to get.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    hey John... maybe... But just because we're trying to technically describe what helps play a style of music.... doesn't mean it's a waste of time.

    Generally when playing funk with 16th note sub-divisions.... doesn't imply scratch. It's just a approach for notation and creating feel from.

    I was implying that the steady 16th note style,(chicken Scratch) is from lack of technique... a way of creating feel technically, that helps get one going....

    I was trying to show the difference.... rhythmically between different funk styles..... Rock funk and R&B funk....

    How did it become I'm telling people they're not playing Funk...
    Well, you did say Leo N plays rock, not funk. I guess I'm not following the distinctions you're drawing between subgenres, though I certainly get that the Meters and ToP don't sound the same.

  18. #42

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    I find urban, west coast, southern, New Orleans, east coast...all have a bit different feel to their funk, but, it's all good.

  19. #43

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    So I'm pretty sure I said...Leo gets rocky.... meaning when he's playing Funk. he uses rock phrasing, rhythms and harmony, still a great player... not bad or wrong.

    OP here are some basic funk rhythms... if your looking to get your Right hand together, you should be able to play the attacks with single note of note pattern, even chords, Try and play without steady 16th note movement with right hand.... there are many standard exercises that help get the right hand together along with playing harmonic figures that imply R&B, Funk and jazz blues .... rather than Pop rock funk which tends to have different rhythmic as well as harmonic implications. They're all good... but different.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So I'm pretty sure I said...Leo gets rocky.... meaning when he's playing Funk. he uses rock phrasing, rhythms and harmony, still a great player... not bad or wrong.

    OP here are some basic funk rhythms... if your looking to get your Right hand together, you should be able to play the attacks with single note of note pattern, even chords, Try and play without steady 16th note movement with right hand.... there are many standard exercises that help get the right hand together along with playing harmonic figures that imply R&B, Funk and jazz blues .... rather than Pop rock funk which tends to have different rhythmic as well as harmonic implications. They're all good... but different.
    OK, got it. Re: Leo, maybe depends on which tunes and periods of time. I'm Listening to Looka-Py Py as I type; I can't imagine a more syncopated funk guitar part than that, but later Meters, Neville's, Funky Meters are different. I played tons of Blues/R&B/Soul/Funk/Motown before concentrating more on jazz, and it's home base for me. To the rest of what you're saying, I agree, one should be able to feel the 16th-note pulse and be able to play patterns and syncopations without constantly moving one's hand in 16ths.

    Here's another couple for you all first, Steve Khan, then Barry Finnerty with the Brecker Brothers.








    John

  21. #45

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    Some great discussions in this thread...and some very articulate comments about technique, timing, right hand, left brain stuff, etc., etc.

    In my view, funk played well makes your head and body move to the groove, and always in the pocket. Nuff said.

  22. #46

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    Yea... When your checkin out the audience and everyone has the same bounce... you know your doin something right.
    Hey John... yea been lucky... known Steve since 70's and Barry and I sub gigs and got to gig a few times with Michael B.... great loss, I was really lookin forward to see where he would go with his music. Not Many guys amaze me... Michael did all the time.

    Here's one of Steve's tunes... I posted it years ago....

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... When your checkin out the audience and everyone has the same bounce... you know your doin something right.
    Hey John... yea been lucky... known Steve since 70's and Barry and I sub gigs and got to gig a few times with Michael B.... great loss, I was really lookin forward to see where he would go with his music. Not Many guys amaze me... Michael did all the time.

    Here's one of Steve's tunes... I posted it years ago....

    I saw Brecker many times, but never got to meet him. Pretty amazing how he kept growing musically through his whole life, just kept getting more and more interesting. I never got to meet him, but know a couple of people who knew him, and what they say musically and personally is very moving.


    John

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I find urban, west coast, southern, New Orleans, east coast...all have a bit different feel to their funk, but, it's all good.
    Yea, I like all shades of funk, or any other rhythmic style.

    Ive read somewhere American guitarists couldn't play Reggae properly, like real Jamaicans. The secret was the stroke needs to be really short and crispy and super percussive. I thought, hmm, isn't it a quick fix? If you play one style really well, it shouldn't be a big deal to make a few adjustments and get another flavor?

    So one plays more Rock funk, the other more R&B, yet another one plays Punk funk... They are all good and within the reach for everyone. OTOH, if you get paid well to do your thing, who cares! Find your niche and be happy, leave the BS to the jazz forum hehehe.

  25. #49

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    Latin or Afro Cuban funk is some of the most complex for me. That's why I dig it so much.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Musicians ability to retain pulse when there’s nothing going on can be weaker than they think. I know this for myself.
    Agreed. couple interesting data points from folks with really great time, in this kinda famous lesson, metheny talks about constantly feeling smaller subdivisions on a tune, triplets for swing, 16ths for a straight 8ths tune:


    So, more recently, I heard an interview with Cory Wong where he talks about the same thing, internally feeling 32nd note subdivisions in order to get his 16th note stuff really laying a certain way.
    121: Cory Wong — The Third Story Podcast with Leo Sidran

    For myself, I've noticed that if I am playing with no other source of time, and not tapping my foot, I have to internally feel subdivisions in order to correctly play longer rests (this comes up most when I am playing classical etudes on the bass, because my teacher discourages foot tapping). I've always been able to tap my foot with very, very good accuracy, pretty much metronomically, but if I don't do this, I find it difficult to feel 6 beats of rest unless I'm counting or subdividing some other way.