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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Musicians ability to retain pulse when there’s nothing going on can be weaker than they think. I know this for myself.
    Agreed. couple interesting data points from folks with really great time, in this kinda famous lesson, metheny talks about constantly feeling smaller subdivisions on a tune, triplets for swing, 16ths for a straight 8ths tune:


    So, more recently, I heard an interview with Cory Wong where he talks about the same thing, internally feeling 32nd note subdivisions in order to get his 16th note stuff really laying a certain way.
    121: Cory Wong — The Third Story Podcast with Leo Sidran

    For myself, I've noticed that if I am playing with no other source of time, and not tapping my foot, I have to internally feel subdivisions in order to correctly play longer rests (this comes up most when I am playing classical etudes on the bass, because my teacher discourages foot tapping). I've always been able to tap my foot with very, very good accuracy, pretty much metronomically, but if I don't do this, I find it difficult to feel 6 beats of rest unless I'm counting or subdividing some other way.




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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    I don't know anything about funk, but I know something about Brazilian styles. And, there, a 16th isn't always the same thing. It's notated that way, but it isn't played that way in a typical rhythmic pattern. This has been proved electronically with plots of amplitude against time. And, the amount of the adjustment is tempo dependent, so a 16th at one tempo isn't the same as a 16th at another tempo. I understand that ride cymbal beats follow the same sort of logic, but I haven't seen electronic proof, although I imagine it exists. Because of that characteristic, it can't be notated accurately.

    It would surprise me if the same thing didn't apply to funk styles.

    That is, you could be exactly on the metronome and it wouldn't groove.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I don't know anything about funk, but I know something about Brazilian styles. And, there, a 16th isn't always the same thing. It's notated that way, but it isn't played that way in a typical rhythmic pattern. This has been proved electronically with plots of amplitude against time. And, the amount of the adjustment is tempo dependent, so a 16th at one tempo isn't the same as a 16th at another tempo. I understand that ride cymbal beats follow the same sort of logic, but I haven't seen electronic proof, although I imagine it exists. Because of that characteristic, it can't be notated accurately.

    It would surprise me if the same thing didn't apply to funk styles.

    That is, you could be exactly on the metronome and it wouldn't groove.
    Yeah I think there's meant to be a lot of flex in those old records. Perhaps things got more metronomic in the 80s?

    In terms of the microrhythmic aspect, I wonder if anyone has looked into this? TBH I just think of it as straight because otherwise I'll swing it like a trad jazz banjo player lol.

    Some of these accents are very subtle, best picked up by lots of playing with musicians that know their stuff.

  5. #54

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    Oh look here's an academic paper :-D

    Swing in early Funk and Jazz-Funk (1967-1971): Micro-rhythmic and Macro-structural investigations

    Just what you need to improve your groove, right?

  6. #55

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    In Brazilian styles there's a 16th 8th 16th thing, as notated

    But, it isn't played that way.

    To my ear, the Brazilians do something akin to the Little Train That Could -- "I think I can, I think I can" with the timing of the phrase getting closer to even as it speeds up.

    And, that's just the shaker.

    Put a good group of them together and there's enormous subtlety.

    The abstract of the article Christian posted alludes to the same thing.

    Put a group together of instruments which are right on the metronome, and it won't groove.

    I think it's important to be aware of this, so you're listening for the right things. Getting it under your fingers is another thing entirely. And, there's a difference between people who can play the basic groove and those who can embellish while staying strongly in the pocket.

    It's the hardest thing I've tried to do in music. You can't notate it. You can't explain it. You can't even think about it in verbal terms. Rather, you have to feel it. And, the novice may not even be able to tell the difference between good groove and poor groove. You have to acclimate to hear it.

    This has been studied a lot. Google "microtiming in jazz".
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-28-2019 at 06:21 PM.

  7. #56

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    Professional musicians have to be able to groove with a click these days. We are in the days of pro tools and an obsession with being able to micromanage every aspect of the recording.

    I think you sometimes have to learn to play a little on top or behind the click depending on context, but sometimes people can be a real stickler about playing in the middle of the click. To me, that sounds a bit dead and lifeless.

    Add to that the fact that sometimes you might need to track all the instruments separately and apart and that makes it even harder.

    A rhythm section in jazz (and i think Brazilian music too) needs a bit of tension in the beat to swing.

  8. #57

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    as a bass player, I definitely play on different parts of the beat depending on a drummer. a typical NYC jazz drummer is gonna play on top of the beat, and therefore if the bass is pushing also we're just gonna speed up, so I try to stay in the center. but, a tenor player recently pointed out to me that folks from midwest/chicago tend to play down the middle of the beat, and in that situation I play a little on top.

    I think stanton moore's "groove alchemy" has the best, most practice analysis of this. it's a drum book, but it's great in terms of how to practice playing "between the cracks" which is that area between eighth/triplet/16th that musicians sometimes call "hard" or "soft" triplets.

    He also talks about the snare being slightly laid back on a backbeat, and the way he describes it has been super helpful for me: you essentially want a flam between the hi-hat and snare. that advice alone has gotten me closer to playing backbeats correctly than any other advice.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Professional musicians have to be able to groove with a click these days. We are in the days of pro tools and an obsession with being able to micromanage every aspect of the recording.

    I think you sometimes have to learn to play a little on top or behind the click depending on context, but sometimes people can be a real stickler about playing in the middle of the click. To me, that sounds a bit dead and lifeless.

    Add to that the fact that sometimes you might need to track all the instruments separately and apart and that makes it even harder.

    A rhythm section in jazz (and i think Brazilian music too) needs a bit of tension in the beat to swing.
    In the Brazilian grooves I was referring to, there is a beat in every other bar which can be right on the click (this assumes a two bar tamborim pattern (think clave)). So, it is possible to groove with a quarter or half note click in 2/4. But, if you put the click on 8ths, or worse, 16ths, there will be trouble. The great groove players don't play the most of the notes on the subdivided click. They're stretched or compressed.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    In the Brazilian grooves I was referring to, there is a beat in every other bar which can be right on the click (this assumes a two bar tamborim pattern (think clave)). So, it is possible to groove with a quarter or half note click in 2/4. But, if you put the click on 8ths, or worse, 16ths, there will be trouble. The great groove players don't play the most of the notes on the subdivided click. They're stretched or compressed.
    Yeah, of course. IIRC last 16th of the beat in a samba for instance is actually pretty much dead on the last 8th triplet.

    I haven’t come across that situation of a click being subdivided like that, but I have heard about producers straightening out percussion tracks on the time line lol.

    What the hell is wrong with people?

    BTW the st-r-e-e-e-t-c-h-y nature of time, I feel like there’s potential for a type of corporate rubato within the tempo. I feel this with Zeppelin for instance to quite a pronounced degree. A lot of the older music has waves of tempo variation that add a subtle human aspect to the groove.

    Perhaps it might match up to a steady pulse every 4 bars or something but the in between isn’t uniformly divided.

    A music edu theorist on my college reading list that I have started reading, Edwin Gordon has the concept of the macrobeat, which is interesting.

    A lot of his ideas would be of interest to this forum, if people haven’t heard of him.

  11. #60

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    The samba pulse is, as I understand it, tempo dependent. So, the exact position in time for that last note varies with tempo. I think this is comparable to the stretch of a ride beat, which is more pronounced at slower tempi.

    In 2/4, I think notes placed on the two are played on the beat. But, I wouldn't be shocked if that varies also.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    In the Brazilian grooves I was referring to, there is a beat in every other bar which can be right on the click (this assumes a two bar tamborim pattern (think clave)). So, it is possible to groove with a quarter or half note click in 2/4. But, if you put the click on 8ths, or worse, 16ths, there will be trouble. The great groove players don't play the most of the notes on the subdivided click. They're stretched or compressed.
    I guess the jazz analogy here is putting the click on the last triplet of an eighth note triplet of two or four (the "skip beat"). Every jazz drummer plays these slightly differently, I've heard these called "hard" and "soft" triplets, and also "wide" and "narrow", i.e. people describe Billy Higgins' ride as one of the widest beats in jazz.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    I guess the jazz analogy here is putting the click on the last triplet of an eighth note triplet of two or four (the "skip beat"). Every jazz drummer plays these slightly differently, I've heard these called "hard" and "soft" triplets, and also "wide" and "narrow", i.e. people describe Billy Higgins' ride as one of the widest beats in jazz.
    I'm assuming, as well, that the placement will vary with tempo and is closer to an eight at high tempi. There you have it. It may not be right on the metronome. If it isn't, where it ends up depends on the drummer and tune.

    Can't notate it. Can't describe it in words. You either feel it, or you don't.

  14. #63

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    The secrets of funk by Leo Nocentelli: