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  1. #1
    This study group is based on the book, Patterns for Jazz by Jerry Coker et al.

    Complete thread index for this study group here:

    Post a "deadline version" video of any or all of the weekly patterns, by Sunday each week, following this schedule:

    Mar 10: patterns 1-4
    Mar 17: patterns 5-6
    Mar 24: patterns 7-10
    Mar 31: patterns 11-12

    Please, state the BPM you're using, which pattern(s) you're posting, and label the post "deadline version", (understanding that a more "final version" may take additional time etc). Please state whether you would like comments on your playing. If you want the best comments possible, please be specific on exactly what you want comments on. "Especially my time/feel/right hand technique" etc etc. There are exceptions, but generally, people will be pretty vague and overly polite if they don't know exactly what you're looking for, ....what your experience level is , ...what your goals are etc.

    Additionally, please look ahead to upcoming weeks , and post preliminary versions if you want, especially if you are newer to this kind of work and want to take some of the edge off... or pressure etc. Posting an early baseline version will give other players a frame of reference to compare things to later, rather than just comparing you to "every other player".

    I've already posted one for the first week in the other thread, and my primary goal at this point only has to be somewhat improving on that, if I choose to see it that way.

    I personally would encourage any types of questions regarding these exercises as to their purpose , technical approaches , specific problems as related to guitar fretboard organization etc. etc. Please note that if you do NOT intend to post playing in this thread, your comments regarding the purpose word validity of these exercises belongs in a separate thread of your own creation elsewhere. Thanks.

    Please PM me corrections or post in the previous thread.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-29-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    Okay, to break the ice, I'll repost my preliminary version.



    My goals for my deadline version this week are:
    *to improve the audio of my drum genius backing by plugging into speakersand fixing volume,
    *to get a little better gain setting on my camera and possibly improve the tone of this electric otherwise.
    *to post these at the maximum of the "suggested tempo" range in the book with the best time and swing feel I can manage.

    All of my music day job and playing/teaching is with acoustic, and I'm really lazy about even plugging this thing in. It's definitely something I want to improve on. Tone generally that is. Probably need to get some real jazz plectrums among other things... :-) I'm using the neck pickup , which is a humbucker. The tone knob is almost all the way on the treble side with flat wound chromes. I'd have to look at the amp settings when I get home, but it's pretty bad amp for this purpose, honestly.

  4. #3

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    I am making an iReal playlist for this group.
    Let me know if are interested in sharing.

  5. #4

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    Hey Matt... so patterns 1-148 are great... I'll post whatever you want.... I can sightread any of these, and already have fingerings internalized. I could post possible fingerings for each pattern.

    When you get to patterns 149-233.... might want to insert the same previous patterns in melodic minor before. Would be much more useful for playing Jazz.... and then harmonic Min. (maybe even harmonic Maj.)... then patterns 149-233, the symmetric scales and arpeggios... If you don't do it up front... you'll just need to do it later. Symmetric scales and arpeggios have harmonic relationships to functional harmony... (not just Major).

    A note... when one works on these patterns... try and not look at neck while you play. It will be difficult, so go back and forth between watching and not. Getting away from starring at your guitar while you play just take practice and is part of performance.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey Matt... so patterns 1-148 are great... I'll post whatever you want.... I can sightread any of these, and already have fingerings internalized. I could post possible fingerings for each pattern.

    When you get to patterns 149-233.... might want to insert the same previous patterns in melodic minor before. Would be much more useful for playing Jazz.... and then harmonic Min. (maybe even harmonic Maj.)... then patterns 149-233, the symmetric scales and arpeggios... If you don't do it up front... you'll just need to do it later. Symmetric scales and arpeggios have harmonic relationships to functional harmony... (not just Major).

    A note... when one works on these patterns... try and not look at neck while you play. It will be difficult, so go back and forth between watching and not. Getting away from starring at your guitar while you play just take practice and is part of performance.
    Yeah, I had the same thought re patterns #149 and up.

    I'd especially be interested in your take on some of the ii-V's. There's always discussion of thinking of them in terms of either the II or the V alone, but it occurs to me in thinking of these cycles, that on the guitar, it may as well be as much dependent on position as pure musical considerations. For example, if the root of the II is on 6th string, you may as well consider as if it's all II and "spell" the line as-if...

    Maybe different if root is on 5th? I have to want to see them more as V.

    Anyway, would be interested in your take...

  7. #6

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    Second post on this page for IReal playlist:

    Jazz Practice Exercises - Page 22

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Great !!
    I actually found that someone has already posted the first 103 exercises in the iReal book forum so I can send you that playlist. PM me your email address.

    That goes for anyone else that would like the playlist as well. PM me your email address and I will forward you the playlist. Or, you can look it up on the forum.
    I'll have to check this out.

    I'm currently using drum genius to play along with, and I'm just in love with this free app. I'll post the names of the loops I'm using for 1-4 today. Everyone else, please do the sameas you think about it.

  9. #8

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    Few comments.
    First way through (E and A string roots) is familiar. All 2nd finger roots. I could play that much faster.
    Second way through uses more fingerings (2nd, 3rd and 4th finger roots) and includes roots on the D string. Don't have this down at all.

    I have iRealPro on my phone but as I used the phone to record video, I didn't want to use it as a backing track (fearing it would be too loud in the mix). So I used my Zipbeat metronome. May have to switch to a webcam for future videos.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  10. #9

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    Isn't the deadline version the final version after working on it for a week?



    I don't know if I'll post a preliminary version this week. I'm still trying to work out some bugs in my audio/video setup. Thought I would get that ironed out this weekend, but it didn't happen.

    My approach for the sake of this group is going to be working the material through three positions - E A D set, A D G set and D G B set - staying in strict position for each set. I'm specifically trying to avoid just memorizing patterns and shapes on the fingerboard and forcing myself to be aware of the name of each root and the intervals I'm playing. To this end, I'm calling out the roots as I go through each exercise.

    I can play all four exercise without much trouble freestyle, but as soon as I throw a backing track on, I start fumbling around and missing the mark or getting lost on which root comes next. Certain things are throwing me off at this point. Thinking Gb rather than F# is a big one. I never realized such a simple thing could mess with my head and hands. Remembering the sequence of roots in minor thirds is completely foreign to me at this point as well.

    My goal for the week will be to get each set down well enough to play to the track without mistakes and hesitation.

    My overall goal for working this material is that I want to get to the point where I can play any scale or arpeggio in any key from wherever my hand is on the fingerboard without having to think about it.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Isn't the deadline version the final version after working on it for a week?
    I thought the 'deadline' version was 'something in by the deadline, not polished.' But as my dad used to say, "I've been wrong before."

    I was determined to post something today just to get started.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  12. #11

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    So here is my first post on patterns 1-4. I hope I'm doing what we're supposed to be doing here. It's strange how I've played jazz guitar now for over 20 years and these basic triad patterns were tricky! The 5/4 pattern also threw me. But here it is, clams and all!

    Featuring... my 1960's Hagstrom I in brilliant bright red acrylic!

    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  13. #12

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  14. #13

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    Looks like a party, I'll see if I can hang.

    Pattern 1, 100bpm, pattern 2 110bpm

    Something different, I hope to sing all the patterns. But, I won't always subject you to the singing. Intonation is a challenge at this tempo (well, honestly, intonation is always a challenge at any tempo).

    Goal is to speed up and clean up. I want my left hand fingers that aren't fretting a note to stay tight/close to the strings, I want my pick motion to be more compact, I want to tighten up my rhythm.

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  15. #14
    Wow. Kind of lit this thread up today. Good stuff. Thanks for posting, everyone.

    "Weekending" works as well as anything. That's what I meant by "deadline". I just didn't like the sound of "final" version on something like this...

    I really like seeing the different approaches.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    So here is my first post on patterns 1-4. I hope I'm doing what we're supposed to be doing here. It's strange how I've played jazz guitar now for over 20 years and these basic triad patterns were tricky! The 5/4 pattern also threw me. But here it is, clams and all!

    Featuring... my 1960's Hagstrom I in brilliant bright red acrylic!
    Good job.
    That drum genius pattern has been one of my go-to's as well. Infectious... Did you check out the "Take 5" pattern? It may be a little on the fast side. I'd have to look, but it works well for this 5/4 pattern. There's another New Orleans 5/4 that's way faster than the target BPM but is a lot of fun too.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Second way through uses more fingerings (2nd, 3rd and 4th finger roots) and includes roots on the D string. Don't have this down at all.
    Hey Mark. How are you fingering that D form on your second time through? Looks like 3-2-1-1? Basically, E- form up a fret I guess. always interested in how CAGED people approach the D-form. It's definitely the most contentious position in terms of caged or other fingering approaches etc.

    I'd be interested in others' s take on that D- forum arp, in terms of what might be consensus anyway (maybe Christian uses this one?). Seems like I remember Mike Christiansen using a pinky shift up the fretboard on the second string for that upper octave. So his D-form would be 2-1-1-4 from the same fret as the A-form. I'd have to look back. Anyway, your fingers are so long, you make everything look like it's a one position. :-)

  18. #17

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    I just read through the first 16 patterns....
    So it seems that one should work through in positions

    When I sight read through, I played them all between 5th and 7th position. Which used standard position shapes. There are a few options... but seem to lay easily on fretboard.

    I tried a few others... 2nd to 4th, then 8th - 10th.... they all seem to work.

    It seems that eventually when we get to larger arpeggios... 6ths, 7th, 9ths etc... you need to have shapes that fit into positions, I don't think it will matter whats system you use... caged, 3 notes per string or 7 positions.... the point is to have a fretboard system that repeats.

    Eventually your not going to have to figure fingerings...they will be internalized and you will only be choosing how you want the pattern to sound, different fingerings have different natural articulations etc...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    ...
    Eventually your not going to have to figure fingerings...they will be internalized and you will only be choosing how you want the pattern to sound, different fingerings have different natural articulations etc...
    On your very last point here, I have always felt that vaguely but never got the thought so concrete and explicit. Yes, different fingerings have different natural articulations. I have been asked why I chose some positions at times because they were "harder" or "awkward" and I realize now it was because I liked the articulation.

    I don't like the "C Position" fingering for major arpeggios because it to easily becomes sweep picking-articulation.

    Somehow this very terse summary just clicked for me. I feel like I understand now why I've inclined toward playing some things a certain way.

    Day made. Not even 1 PM and I can go to bed happy!
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  20. #19

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    So I've slightly modified my approach on this.

    After reading Reg's comments about position playing, I'm putting more emphasis on position playing. It was a better way to organize this a little and not be completely random. Still gives me a lot of benefit of making choices but just kind of reels it in a little bit from being a free for all and I like that. It just makes sense that you would probably naturally play out of a position and then shift positions as opposed to randomly jumping around, Although I'm not counting that out haha.

    Thanks for starting this thread and excercise, Matt. I'm a little blown away with some of the benefits I'm already seeing with regard to fretboard freedom. Just in these first 4 patterns I can already sense that I'm seeing the fretboard a little more clearly but also I'm hearing it .

    I find not looking to be a crazy challenge, especially on the circle of 5ths and the minor 3rd transitions. wow. I am trying not to be buried in the fretboard though. Just gonna take some time.

    Anybody else feel there is 3 months of study in just these first 4 patterns? lol

  21. #20

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    oh, and I just wanted to add.....

    I can also see how these first major patterns are a springboard for extensions, dominant and minor patterns coming so I wouldn't expect every few groups of patterns to take 3 months, but certainly these major patterns are foundational in nature and for me, worth spending a lot of time organizing them.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Hey Mark. How are you fingering that D form on your second time through? Looks like 3-2-1-1? Basically, E- form up a fret I guess. always interested in how CAGED people approach the D-form. It's definitely the most contentious position in terms of caged or other fingering approaches etc.

    I'd be interested in others' s take on that D- forum arp, in terms of what might be consensus anyway (maybe Christian uses this one?). Seems like I remember Mike Christiansen using a pinky shift up the fretboard on the second string for that upper octave. So his D-form would be 2-1-1-4 from the same fret as the A-form. I'd have to look back. Anyway, your fingers are so long, you make everything look like it's a one position. :-)
    About that D form. We're talking about the root on the D string right? The hard way (which I usually do) is 2-1-3-4 (strings D G G and B); the easy way is 3-2-1-1 on the bottom four strings. (The "F" chord I learned as a kid.) Every day I play in a certain key through the five positions / fingerings / shapes (whatever) and play up one 7th chord and down the next. The 2-1-3-4 fingering for a major 7 with a with the root on the D string is my least favorite.

    I'll make a video later.

    As for CAGED, I got the five fingerings (got them down, I should say) via Jimmy Bruno. He hates the term CAGED. Joe Pass liked it. They're really the same. But I didn't learn it thinking of CAGED. To Jimmy, the fingerings are named for the lowest note in the fingering. For Jimmy, if you're in C, the lowest (closed) fingering has the root on the A string, 3rd fret. But the lowest note in the position is G, the 5th of C, so that's fingering 5. Fingering 6 starts on A, and fingering 7 starts on B. Fingering 2 starts on D and fingering 3 on E.

    And this is why Jimmy prefers "pitch collection" to "scale." Fingering 5 turns out to be (in C): G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G A. That's all the notes of the C scale but you don't play it root to root, you play all the available notes in the position.

    I relate this to Pat Martino's "five activities" in his book "Linear Expressions." (Same 6-4-3-2 chord inversions of m7 chords.) But that's another story. ;o)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  23. #22

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    I'm implementing Michael Kaye's approach of staying in the same area of the neck. I like that it forces one to use a bunch of different patterns. Never the same pattern consecutively.

    Also, fyi in case some don't know. Jerry Coker is not a guitarist, he is a saxophonist and educator. Thus, no specific guitar position or fingering guidance in this book.



    Regarding Matt's request about how we are using the D form:

    I am using the Caged D form at parts of this video, actually I'm using all 5 forms in this video. I play the D Form per the attached 1st measure. I'll sometimes combine the D and C form as in the 2nd measure. There is no rule that you can't combine the CAGED positions, no rule you have to be "CAGED" in with CAGED. I think those that criticize the CAGED system don't consider that the positions get combined to create these hybrid positions.

    (The 3-2-1-1 that Mark described is not a D form, it is the E form as Matt mentioned).
    Attached Images Attached Images Patterns for Jazz study group - March 2019-d-form-jpg 
    Last edited by fep; 03-05-2019 at 05:43 PM.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  24. #23

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    If trying to deepen awareness of the fingerboard is one of your goals
    then I would consider practicing the patterns in the context of 5 fret positions.
    2 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale and one unison are contained in every 5 frets.
    Pick any 5 frets and stay there for the whole pattern. For chromatic ascending,
    I would suggest starting on the lowest possible chord in the position
    and continuing to the highest one rather than C (ex. 1st position F major > A major)
    This yields most of the standard fingering possibilities as well as several awkward ones.
    In my opinion, there is also value in learning to problem solve best possible fingering solutions
    for more awkward note locations.

  25. #24

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    Here's a quick take on the first pattern in two octaves. Planning to work on cleanliness and time feeling!


    Inviato dal mio SM-G955F utilizzando Tapatalk

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    Here's a quick take on the first pattern in two octaves. Planning to work on cleanliness and time feeling!

    Ha! I didn't think of using a finger tap move on the B string roots. I might have to rethink my approach.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  27. #26

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    Recorded this with my iTrack Pocket. The guitar was not plugged into the Pocket, so the voice and guitar were captured by the Pocket's external mics. First attempt (with this device) to record talk and playing. I think it came out well enough for what I was trying to do.

    Fingering choices...

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  28. #27

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    The way I was taught by a CAGED guru, the source isn't scales, it's chords.

    Play a D major chord in open position, as Bill Thrasher called them, "play a D cowboy chord". Okay, now play the D minor cowboy chord (open position). Those are both D form chords from the CAGED system. D major7, D7, Dm7, all in open position and all D form. And if you want to approach them with CST, they have different scale fingerings / pitch collections for the major, minor, or dominant versions, but named based on the CAGED chord position, not on a scale. It's a chord grip approach first.

    I think it's an important distinction that changes ones perspective. From the very start one is more aware of chord tones, and ones playing is more chord tone directed (for better or worse).
    Last edited by fep; 03-06-2019 at 01:19 AM.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  29. #28

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    Hey Frank... position playing can also be based on chords... there really isn't any approach difference between playing caged patterns or 7 position chord patterns... Both systems create patterns... just different patterns.

    Personally... every single note I play is a chord. I think most don't realize the chordal aspects of position playing because they didn't get taught that way. (maybe that's why many young guitarist can't comp). Was that the way you were introduced to position playing... through scales only. Gets to that problems of teachers ....not really understanding what they're teaching.

    At what age is the student responsible etc...

    I also like caged sounds and patterns created from. They are very Guitar friendly and open position organization is generally where most guitarist start... seems natural for the instrument. Like playing pentatonics on guitar compared to piano which create much more difficult fingerings... and sax, gets weird in B.

    Anyway... when you eventually get to playing these same patterns using 9th's 11th's and 13th's and chords from Harmonic and melodic minor... it's helpfull to be aware and able to use other shapes along with caged.

    But I definitely like your point about being aware of CHORDS concept.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    The way I was taught by a CAGED guru, the source isn't scales, it's chords.
    That's how I see it. If you know where the root, 3rd and 5th are, you can figure out the rest. ;o)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  31. #30
    Here's what probably should be a more finished version, but I accidentally lined up the world's worst camera angle. Needed to retune by the last pattern as well. I'll see if I can do something better on Friday maybe.



    These are versions of me doing it the way reg talked about in a post above. I can "think" in 7th position pretty well, but I need to work on adding some others to my more solid, go-to positions for sure. I'd appreciate any comments/tips on tone especially. I'm a long-time acoustic guy and too lazy with electric honestly.

    Any comments on any aspect appreciated. Thanks.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Here's what probably should be a more finished version, but I accidentally lined up the world's worst camera angle. Needed to retune by the last pattern as well. I'll see if I can do something better on Friday maybe.



    These are versions of me doing it the way reg talked about in a post above. I can "think" in 7th position pretty well, but I need to work on adding some others to my more solid, go-to positions for sure. I'd appreciate any comments/tips on tone especially. I'm a long-time acoustic guy and too lazy with electric honestly.

    Any comments on any aspect appreciated. Thanks.
    That camera angle is good for watching your right hand. I'm impressed with your right hand technique which is very similar to my go to picking technique (I have three right hand plectrum techniques but my primary one is the same as yours). What you do well that I don't is your hand is quite, compact and efficient. I bounce in and out of the strings too much. I don't see the bounce in your picking, one has to move in a way to avoid the strings when skipping strings, but I don't see any bounce in your technique.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    That camera angle is good for watching your right hand. I'm impressed with your write hand technique which is very similar to my go to picking technique (I have three right hand plectrum techniques but my primary one is the same as yours). What you do well that I don't is your hand is quite, compact and efficient. I bounce in and out of the strings too much. I don't see the bounce in your picking, one has to move in a way to avoid the strings when skipping strings, but I don't see any bounce in your technique.
    Thanks, Frank. That means a lot coming from you.

    I started that thing a couple of years ago I guess around the time of epic Benson picking discussion. I read up on it some and tried to come up with something that basically works or whatever. My main requirement of myself was that I would generally try to do the angle and NOT think about right-hand much otherwise. I change the grip here and there, from time to time , depending on mood , style music, and how long once been playing etc. I never obsess over it or overanalyze the right hand. The Benson thread cured me of that. :-)

    99% of my focus has been on cleaning up left-hand stuff, and I've just kind of gotten some right hand for free.

    Honestly, it's gonna sound weird, but I think the most helpful thing for me with picking (and everything else really) has been working on subdividing more. I played triplets on everything for a while, and I noticed that the unintended consequence was that my eighth notes sounded much better, (or even quarter notes etc). You subconsciously learn to start planting the pick on specific subdivisions etc. My plectrum "hears" much faster than I could ever think. Anyway, one day I looked down and realized that basically I'm doing reststrokes on a lot of my up-strokes? Weird...

    You are my study group hero by the way. :-) The Frank groups are hands-down the best threads ever. A real forum legacy.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-07-2019 at 10:55 AM.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    You are my study group hero by the way. :-) The Frank groups are hands-down the best threads ever. A real forum legacy.
    Couldn't agree more. Frank (fep) is the king of study group leaders! (Or if 'king' sounds undesirable, 'most effective' should do.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  35. #34

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    Thanks guys , this is a great community.

    This study group looks really promising... I think it's mostly about getting a good group of participants that stick to it. The material for this study group looks to be capsulized well into sections which I think will work well.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Thanks guys , this is a great community.

    This study group looks really promising... I think it's mostly about getting a good group of participants that stick to it. The material for this study group looks to be capsulized well into sections which I think will work well.
    I think both those elements are important: 1) a good group of participants and 2) bite-size sections of material to work on.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  37. #36
    So it's Thursday. Post more finished versions or different versions of this week if you like, by Sunday.

    Also, begin posting more preliminary versions of the next couple weeks or so as you see fit. Also post thoughts, questions observations and ideas about fingering approaches or anything else related to these upcoming patterns. Thanks.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-07-2019 at 11:14 AM.

  38. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Some of those exercises include directions to go back and redo the previous exercises with the new pattern. Is that just going to be added into what gets covered in a week or stretch things out another week?
    Ok. So I never fully answered this I guess. I'd like to keep moving as much as possible. Let's see what we can do with the current schedule. I intend to post as much of what I can of patterns 5-8 this upcoming week, including the extra cycles in the "apply the same principles..." subtext for 5 and 6.

    Maybe, if we can't manage some of the extra cycles, just post the basic notated version and include the others in our "review queue"? Let me know your thoughts on this strategy as you work through the material.

  39. #38

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    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  40. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?

  41. #40

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    I think the fingering issues we are all having is on #2 . If we count from C to C there are twelve choices to be made as of playing it up or down with respect to the note we're coming from. As octaves are not mentioned ( in bar 3 of the example there are 2 choices for the Bb) I've found myself descending lower and lower on the neck by playing the Bb triad next to the C I started from etc. I didn't like the result nor the direction it was taking the exercise, so I found I like it better when I play in the higher octave instead of the lower when I have to play the Bb triad and the B, by doing so you have the following sequence. I'll post a video when I have a guitar around.

    U U D U D U U D U D U U

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  42. #41
    Great! Look forward to this. I really enjoy the process part. For me, I'm coming from 7-patterns in-position, which leaves 5 above or below. I'm basically defaulting to moving down a fret, so, from 7th position to 6th position. Octave is mostly determined by my personal like/or dislike at the moment. :-)

    I've found that my choices are slightly different for pattern five for example, because it has different melodic implications with the movement, but it's mostly personal taste still.

    On a side note, I feel like it's probably an important part of the process for many of us to kind of develop our own fingerings, but I wonder if it might not be helpful to more beginner observers if we posted some of our fingerings in the way of grids etc.? Also, just as a way of sharing with each other...

    I'd love to see playing examples from some of the likes of Reg, Christian, M-ster etcby weeks end, ....in addition to some more newbie players. Questions re all aspects of this, from all levels, will help maintain interest.

  43. #42

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    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  45. #44

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    I'm steadily working on this. I don't have time to post an example today but I will hopefully by Sunday and then I'll be ready to move to the next set of patterns.

    To summarize:

    I worked all the patterns to the suggested tempos.

    I've been a 5/7 position player for a long time but what I worked out was covering 2 octaves in 3 positions with the Root of C on the 5th string as position 1, which basically covers the first 5 frets, Then the Root on 6th string with 4th finger , then Root on 6th string with 1st finger. This I found to be basically covering the fretboard from 0 to 12 and slightly beyond blending in to first postion. I'm quite satisfied with this arrangement as I feel I have a good overiew of the fretboard with this arrangement.

    Then, I went down the rabbit hole, and this is what I meant by 3 months of study, hah
    just for fun, I started modifying the pattern, to inversions. Same rhythmic figures, but sequencing 351 and 513. talk about a headache! This is just me, and I may be getting beyond the scope of this first set of exercises but I was having fun exploring this idea. And it's not so bad.

    And to continue down the rabbit hole I slightly modified the triad patterns to be continuous , no half notes or tied notes so I could make continuous sequences out of the patterns. (no new notes, still just triad notes). Here my tempo suffers a little

    And finally, I did work patterns up the neck sequentially on the same fingerings, same strings because, why not? haha

    Just to be clear, I'm sticking to the program as laid out in the book - I don't want to go crazy adding a bunch of stuff to it- but I had some extra time this week so I kind of ran with it.

    I also found that while I liked working with iReal Pro, I often mixed it with straight metronome about 1/2 & 1/2 so that I could correct mistakes on the fly. I like it both ways.

    I haven't ventured in to the next set of patterns yet.


    This is really a blast guys. So enjoying this exercise.

  46. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).

    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?

  47. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.
    To clarify, you're talking about posting the notated versions only (and not the additional "apply the same principle..." parts), this keeping to roughly 4-patterns-per-week?

    What was talked about above was spending longer time on fewer patterns , when they involve "apply the same principle". So, you'd do a week on 5 & 6 only, since they suggest "doing the same" with the previous 3 cycles.

    I'm a fan of the "extra credit" model, but I think erring on the side of slower may be beneficial to start.

    Thanks for your input. You're another study group boss. Between you and Frank....lots of mojo. :-)

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?
    Thanks Matt. Yeah that pick slanting came from the Benson picking thread.

    For drums I'm using EZDrummer 2. That's a program that has really well done drum samples from several kits (you can buy more kits also) and has midi drum patterns. You can also import other midi libraries from them or 3rd parties, you can play your own midi, or program your own etc. The company is toontrack and the midi that they do was played by professional drummers, it's not snapped to the grid and has a human feel.

    I like to record and write tunes, EZdrummer 2 is great in that I can play in a basic groove, search for similar grooves, sequence them, and then surgically modify them if I want.

    I don't have many choices for 5/4, that pattern had me thinking of buying the odd time signature midi groove expansion... it can be a rabbit hole.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  49. #48

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    Ok, here's #1. I come up with something similar to fep, staying in a 5 frets range regarding the starting note of the triad, not so much the rest.
    I identified octaves from C to C, by doing so i came up with 6 way to play it.
    From C-6th string going to the to left to C-3rd string
    From C-6th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-5th string going to the left to C-1st string (this one done starting on the 15th fret to avoid open strings)
    From C-5th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the left initially but resorting to go to the left in the end to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the right ending in C-1st string



    And here is #2




    And here is #3


    And here is #4

    Last edited by benjaminjoe; 03-10-2019 at 06:32 AM.

  50. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    Ok, here's #1.
    Wow. Nice. You're covering a lot of real estate, in the first one especially.

    Looks like mostly a three finger approach with the left hand I guess? Also, the way you are cycling chords is pretty different. It's cool to see these different approaches. Thanks for posting and for describing what you're doing as well.

    I hadn't seen much of you before this thread. Good to have you on board.

  51. #50

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    Thanks. May I ask what do you mean by Cycling chords? I tend to use the ring finger for the Caged E form I arpeggio . For the rest I stay in somewhat CAGED forms except for some occasional finger stretch derived from 3nps I guess? Mostly when the index finger is closer than the middle for a form that would require it.

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