Patterns for Jazz study group - March 2019

[Iain Carleton]

Hi everyone, I’ve just been “lurking” around here reading your posts and watching the videos. I think it’s a great idea. I’d like to join in at some point but should probably disclose that I’m a little over two years into the book and am currently re-examining pattern 85 in the Dorian. My process so far has been to move on as soon as I can play to the lower guide tempo, and find that often I use two or three fingerings moving up or down the neck to get me there. I have found that this pays off in unexpected ways and that I am now more likely to be able to “complete a level” in position although might choose playing along the neck in some situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FwLineberry]

I think it would be cool if we posted early versions of some of this stuff, a couple of weeks out or so. It could be questions, thoughts etc. Or just brief playing examples. It would give us more of a reference point for commenting on each other's playing.. something from which to measure progress etc.

[snip]


You definitely don't have to post anything as long-winded as some of my comments...

Right now, I'm lucky to get something posted by deadline. I'm hoping to get my video procedure streamlined, but atm my recording environment is so noisy that I have to record audio separately direct into a DAW and spend time syncing everything up in a video editing program. I also have pet issues, so I can't just leave everything set up to do what I need to do and have to start from scratch every time. My wife and I are hoping to convert a downstairs room into a dedicated music room, but that is a major project for some time in the future.


You seem to have this first material under your hands pretty well even in your rough takes. Is that from having gone through this book already or just from general familiarity?

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Right now, I'm lucky to get something posted by deadline. I'm hoping to get my video procedure streamlined, but atm my recording environment is so noisy that I have to record audio separately direct into a DAW and spend time syncing everything up in a video editing program. I also have pet issues, so I can't just leave everything set up to do what I need to do and have to start from scratch every time. My wife and I are hoping to convert a downstairs room into a dedicated music room, but that is a major project for some time in the future.

Yeah. The ones I recorded this morning were on my phone and pretty rough audio I guess. I haven't recorded anything direct in forever. I do have a zoom Q2n which works pretty well and is better quality. For that for quick and easy, it's hard to beat these phones nowadays. I think Jeff uses a phone almost exclusively, and he always sounds great.

You seem to have this first material under your hands pretty well even in your rough takes. Is that from having gone through this book already or just from general familiarity?

I looked at it for a few days a couple of years ago. I quit in frustration. Basically, it's one of the things that led me to really tighten up on basic technical aspects of my playing and fretboard knowledge. I was so irritated that it seemed to take so much effort and thought to just cover basic on this instrument. Very different from my experience with sax and piano. I did a lot of work with scales and especially arpeggios.

Anyway, I started back looking at it a couple of days before my first post in original thread proposal. It made a lot more sense too me this time. That said, I play through this material a lot of different ways at home. I play through the cycles using single patterns some to work on technical issues, and I really try to be aware of actual position and not let my fingers just go on auto pilot. I've always cycled things in fourths, but the whole-step and minor 3rd patterns are new for me. So, that's been a good thing for me to work on.

If you pick a single pattern to work through, you can read through a lot of material more quickly. I'm doing some more grunt work on later stuff and using this earlier material to work on the position thing and for adding new patterns and positions etc. I was pretty familiar with types 1, 2, 3 and 4. I also recently did a lot of work on type 1C fingerings on all scale degree chords etc. So 1, 2 and 1C are very familiar, in terms of fretboard knowledge of where those pitches are. 3 and 4 aren't quite as solid in that regard, but my fingers know them really well. The other 2 fingerings need a good bit more work on the fretboard/pitch awareness relative to those shapes. So, yeah, I'm not as much having to learn 7 fingerings/pitch associations/position associations for any given position. It's mostly the last category and just filling in gaps, if that makes sense.

[FwLineberry]

Yeah. The ones I recorded this morning were on my phone and pretty rough audio I guess. I haven't recorded anything direct in forever. I do have a zoom Q2n which works pretty well and is better quality. For that for quick and easy, it's hard to beat these phones nowadays. I think Jeff uses a phone almost exclusively, and he always sounds great.


I looked at it for a few days a couple of years ago. I quit in frustration. Basically, it's one of the things that led me to really tighten up on basic technical aspects of my playing and fretboard knowledge. I was so irritated that it seemed to take so much effort and thought to just cover basic on this instrument. Very different from my experience with sax and piano. I did a lot of work with scales and especially arpeggios.

Anyway, I started back looking at it a couple of days before my first post in original thread proposal. It made a lot more sense too me this time. That said, I play through this material a lot of different ways at home. I play through the cycles using single patterns some to work on technical issues, and I really try to be aware of actual position and not let my fingers just go on auto pilot. I've always cycled things in fourths, but he whole-step and minor 3rd patterns are new for me.

If you pick a single pattern to work through, you can read through a lot of material more quickly.

You mention sax. I originally got this book to work through on clarinet but I haven't gotten to the point on that instrument for any of this to do much good. I put the book away and forgot about it. It never even occurred to me to go through the stuff on guitar until you posted the proposal thread. It's perfectly in line with what I laid out for myself to be working on for the next period of time - scales and arpeggios in positions going through cycles and common chord progressions. Now that I'm going through it on guitar, I have a better idea of how to approach it on clarinet as well.

Back to practicing.

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hi everyone, I’ve just been “lurking” around here reading your posts and watching the videos. I think it’s a great idea. I’d like to join in at some point but should probably disclose that I’m a little over two years into the book and am currently re-examining pattern 85 in the Dorian. My process so far has been to move on as soon as I can play to the lower guide tempo, and find that often I use two or three fingerings moving up or down the neck to get me there. I have found that this pays off in unexpected ways and that I am now more likely to be able to “complete a level” in position although might choose playing along the neck in some situations.

Hey, Iain. We'd love for you to post your versions of the examples we're currently working on.

I agree with your philosophy of limiting things to accelerate progress and to focus more on specific technical aspects or specific areas of fretboard knowledge. It's something that got me inspired to work through this in a simpler way this time actually. My default process, when I run into technical hurdles is to basically go back to one form and work it through the cycles etc.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's updated fingering for what I'm practicing this week. I'm not really making these for personal use but more for communication purposes here. So, if there's a format that makes more sense, I'd be happy to tweak this in Neck Diagrams. Let me know. One click gives note names or intervals etc. Anyway, let me know if this makes sense, and I appreciate that others have posted some as well. It's definitely not required, but it's a nice add-on.

[FwLineberry]

Here's updated fingering for what I'm practicing this week. I'm not really making these for personal use but more for communication purposes here. So, if there's a format that makes more sense, I'd be happy to tweak this in Neck Diagrams. Let me know. One click gives note names or intervals etc. Anyway, let me know if this makes sense, and I appreciate that others have posted some as well. It's definitely not required, but it's a nice add-on.

The diagrams make perfect sense to me. You and I are using the same basic approach with a little variation in fingerings. I'm curious how much you're able to stick to those exact fingerings on this current crop of patterns.

I'm finding that I have to alter the fingers I use and occasionally shift out of position to make smooth transitions. This may be an area where a CAGED type approach starts to outshine a strict position approach.

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The diagrams make perfect sense to me. You and I are using the same basic approach with a little variation in fingerings. I'm curious how much you're able to stick to those exact fingerings on this current crop of patterns.

I'm finding that I have to alter the fingers I use and occasionally shift out of position to make smooth transitions. This may be an area where a CAGED type approach starts to outshine a strict position approach.

.

Well, honestly, that's the primary idea behind reg's use of this particular fingering. If you default II first finger stretches, you can use the second finger as your starting reference for fingerings , and they all stay pretty much the same.

I would assume tha twith the fourth finger stretch fingerings, you're mostly using a first finger reference? Anyway, the first finger is in a different position relative to the second finger in different fingerings, depending on scale degree and half steps etc, whereas with a second finger reference, since the second finger is the reference point, it doesn't change, since you don't stretch second finger.

[FwLineberry]

Well, honestly, that's the primary idea behind reg's use of this particular fingering. If you default II first finger stretches, you can use the second finger as your starting reference for fingerings , and they all stay pretty much the same.

I would assume tha twith the fourth finger stretch fingerings, you're mostly using a first finger reference? Anyway, the first finger is in a different position relative to the second finger in different fingerings, depending on scale degree and half steps etc, whereas with a second finger reference, since the second finger is the reference point, it doesn't change, since you don't stretch second finger.

The way I'm doing it is strictly by position. The position dictates the reference. For example 3rd position for me means fingers 1 1 2 3 4 4 with 2 at the 4th fret. Any notes that fall on those frets are covered by the designated finger as much as is practical.

I may be giving the impression that I'm married to these fingerings, but I'm not. Under normal playing situations I use any fingering or position that facilitates what I want to play. For this material, however, I decided to try it in strict positions as a limitation exercise in order to try and force myself away from pattern recognition. As soon as I take the same shape and move it up two frets, my brain switches to pattern recognition and no longer registers what I'm actually playing. It's impossible for me not to pick up on patterns. Even with these drills the way I'm trying to approach it my brain immediately picks up on 4ths are just over a string or down a string and down two frets. When you have to switch octaves, it always moves from shape x to shape y.

The problem with patterns for me is that if I find myself in a situation where I want to play a certain idea I either try to move to the location where I know the idea best or I experience hesitation because I'm in an unfamiliar location for playing that idea.

Another example of how this bites me is I'm working through Martino's line studies from Linear Expressions. Memorizing and playing the exercises required very little effort. It's just a sequence of notes with a lot of repeated "licks" and variations. The problem comes when I want to apply his ideas. I'm not recognizing things as "that's a G lick" That's a Bb lick". That's mainly due to how he works off the D G and B strings for reference. That's always been a week spot of mine. I see references off the E A and E strings mostly.


Anyway, here are the fingerings I'm using for this batch of drills. Each week I've picked a different criteria for the positions. Week one was starting from middle finger on the C note from the E A and D strings. That dictated 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. Last week I started with the index finger on the C. That dictated 3rd, 8th and 10th positions. This week I'm starting with the pinky on the C. That dictates 5th, 7th and 12th or open positions.


Chromatic in open position

Major Arpeggios - Chromatic- Open Position.pdf


4ths in 5th position - this require a couple of altered fingerings and using the A shape off the E string instead of the D string where I would have preferred. I couldn't come up with any way to get from a D string fingering of A to an A string fingering of D.

Major Arpeggios - 4ths -5th Position.pdf


2nds in 7th position - For my D string based position, I'm playing roots off the D G and B strings. This requires me to displace the octave on the higher arpeggios in order to stay in position. The F requires moving up to 8th position. The final Db requires either an awkward shift down a string and down a fret with the index finger or moving up to the 8th position again.

Major Arpeggios - 2nds - 7th Position.pdf


Minor 3rds in 12th position - This is the most awkward to finger so far. The opening C requires fingering the octave with the 3rd finger in order to get the middle finger over to the D string for the Eb.

Major Arpeggios - Minor 3rds - 12th Position.pdf

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[Michael Kaye]

This is great discussion guys.

I'm a little behind. patterns 5 and 6 giving me fits still at raised tempos especially major 2nds and min 3rds but I'll get there. probably wont be able to post anything until Friday. have a busy week. but I'm hanging in there.

[bako]

I'm a big advocate of practicing material inside 5 frets.This is all that is needed to cover 2 1/3
octaves of the chromatic scale and therefore addresses all keys within the limits of this range.
While doing so yields some less than favorite fingerings, it provides the clearest vantage point
of relevant notes in close proximity.

Any awkward fingering that occurs within the chosen 5 frets, has an improved option in the
5 fret position either one below or one above, also known as a 6 fret position.
Hence, the beauty of a 6 fret position (or two adjacent 5 fret positions from my vantage point)
is that it allows avoidance of these awkward fingerings.

Another unasked for suggestion for those practicing within a position concept is to start on the lowest available
occurence of the chord type and inversion rather than on C.
So pattern 1 in 1st position looks like this starting on F and continuing to the top of the position:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2----------3-
-------------------------------------------1----------2----------3---------4--------5--------1----------2----
-----------3----------4--------5-------1----------2----------3-------1-4------2-5-------3----------4-------
-------3---------1-4------1-5------3----------4--------1-5-------2---------3---------4----------5----------
-1--5---------2---------3--------4----------5------------------------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------1----------2-------------3-----------4----------5--------------------
----------4---------5--------------1----------2-------------3--------1-4--------2-5-----------------------
-------3------1-4---------------2-----------3-----------4--------1-----------2----------------------------
-1-5-------2-----------------3-----------4-----------5-----------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not doing the study group but I was encouraged to break out the book for the first time in decades.
My favorite parts of the book is it's application of different interval cycles to the patterns.
In silent solidarity, I spent a few days playing self generated patterns in a way that suits my skills and interests.
Carry on, nice work.

[fep]

Tried it over a drum improvisation making it much easier to lose the "1" downbeat.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Tried it over a drum improvisation making it much easier to lose the "1" downbeat.

Nice. Love the drum loop and the playing, especially the improv after. Your fingerings looks mostly the same as mine. You're using six patterns?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Deadline version of Patterns 7-10 at 139 bpm. 3rd and 7th positions.

Drum genius pattern: Swing Med 04

Comments/critiques please.

[Michael Kaye]

I have a question.....

I haven't been paying attention - when you guys are cycling back with patterns 5 and 6 but doing the interval cycles of patterns 1 - 4, are you targeting the tempos of 1 - 4 or the tempos of 5 and 6?

[FwLineberry]

I have a question.....

I haven't been paying attention - when you guys are cycling back with patterns 5 and 6 but doing the interval cycles of patterns 1 - 4, are you targeting the tempos of 1 - 4 or the tempos of 5 and 6?

Tempos of 5 and 6.

You're not really going back you're just using the same set of four chord cycles on the new material.

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Did a little of these at 160 when I forgot to factor this in, and it slightly hurt my feelings. 160 is faster than 138. Just saying. :-)

[FwLineberry]

Here is exercises 7 through 10. I combined them into one drill in four postions:

1. 7 - open position - roots on A D G strings
2. 8 - 5th position - roots on E A D strings
3. 9 - 7th position - roots on D G B strings
4. 10 - 12th position - roots on A D G strings

The last pattern is a little sloppy, but I didn't think I'd get a better take without spending all afternoon. What you see is what you get. Most of the fingerings in that position are not very practical that high on the neck. I'd change things around under actual playing conditions.


Tempo is 120 with a cha-cha-cha beat.

For this next week, I'm planning on working up exercises 11 and 12 in three of the variations (4ths, 2nds, min 3rds) starting off my middle finger. So 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. I'll probably post some fingerings tomorrow once I figure out how it's going to go.

.

[MarkRhodes]

Been a crazy week for me, with mom going from the ER to a hospital bed and then to a skilled nursing facility. (Broken shoulder. )
Very little time to practice.

But I want to stay on this bus, so I did what I could.

[FwLineberry]

After working with 4ths in the second position, I decided the stretches were not very practical, too much jumping from the index on the 1st fret to the pinky on the 6th fret. So I figured I'd see how it goes with moving my hand out of strict position and avoiding any stretches.

Here's the fingerings I've decided on


Major Arpeggios - 4ths -2nd-3rd Position.pdf



For the C and B chords I play the ascending version with my 3rd finger in order to descend the following chord starting on the 4th finger. The 4th finger is used for descending on both.

For the final C chord, I'm moving up to 5th position and playing the same fingering as A. I didn't feel like making a second page for one diagram, though.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here is exercises 7 through 10. I combined them into one drill in four postions:

1. 7 - open position - roots on A D G strings
2. 8 - 5th position - roots on E A D strings
3. 9 - 7th position - roots on D G B strings
4. 10 - 12th position - roots on A D G strings

The last pattern is a little sloppy, but I didn't think I'd get a better take without spending all afternoon. What you see is what you get. Most of the fingerings in that position are not very practical that high on the neck. I'd change things around under actual playing conditions.


Tempo is 120 with a cha-cha-cha beat.

For this next week, I'm planning on working up exercises 11 and 12 in three of the variations (4ths, 2nds, min 3rds) starting off my middle finger. So 2nd, 7th and 9th positions. I'll probably post some fingerings tomorrow once I figure out how it's going to go.

.

Good job. I like how you got all of these into a single take. Mine definitely has a ransom note quality to the competitively. (I'm looking forward to having a little more time this week. We are out of town for much of this week.) Thanks for posting.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Been a crazy week for me, with mom going from the ER to a hospital bed and then to a skilled nursing facility. (Broken shoulder. )
Very little time to practice.

But I want to stay on this bus, so I did what I could.

Hey Mark, good job getting these up during your crazy week. Hope this week is downright boring. :-) thanks for posting.

[android]

Hi Everyone

Sorry for the dumb question, but I have noticed this interesting thread for a new guy to Jazz guitar and wondered if it's too late to join??
what book are you studying?-

Many Thanks
Andy

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hi Everyone

Sorry for the dumb question, but I have noticed this interesting thread for a new guy to Jazz guitar and wondered if it's too late to join??
what book are you studying?-

Many Thanks
Andy

Feel free to join in. You can jump in where we are currently or post older patterns etc... Whatever you like.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Based on the book Patterns for Jazz by Jerry Coker, Jimmy Casale, Gary Campbell and Jerry Greene.

[MarkRhodes]

I've been doing a lot of work on Pat Martino lines and a "perpetual motion" exercise by David Baker. I really appreciate this group because it gives me the nudge to keep at this and try to post in a timely fashion.

Haven't experimented much with fingerings. That may change...

The minor third progressions are the most challenging for me because I'm not used to them but I think they will do me a lot of good, especially when we get to diminished patterns.

[FwLineberry]

Sounds good - i have been going over the history on this thread, so basically, you are just repeating the pattern
through all notes of the chromatic scale - starting on the 6th string, so is this like 'Arpeggios' where you are sounding out the notes of the chord?

Thanks
Andy

The first 28 exercises are arpeggios moving through four different root cycles (minor seconds, major seconds, minor thirds, fourths).

There is nothing dictating where you play the patterns on the fingerboard. I'm working with 3 string sets (EAD, ADG, DGB) and different starting fingers for each set of drills. It's really up to you how you want to go through this stuff.

As far as reading goes, even if you just played everything straight eighth notes, you'd still get a lot out of running the root cycles.

.

[FwLineberry]

Here are the fingerings I'm using for major 2nds in 7th and 8th position. I've decided to stick with non-stretch fingerings for this weeks work.

For the octave C and Db arpeggios, I ascend with fingers 4 3 2 and descend with fingers 1 2 3


Major Arpeggios - 2nds - 7th-8th Position.pdf

[android]

This is a great way to learn to read! It starts with major triads, root, third, and fifth. (Triads are line-line-line or space-space-space in treble clef.) Then you just repeat the pattern on the other chords. It's the same pattern for each chord, and the rhythms (early on, anyway) are the same. So it's really ideal for starting to read music!

Thanks, think i have a grasp on the basic idea- sounds like this is not a strict thing, as long as you play the correct notes,

im reading the 1st pattern as C E G C G E C
so i can start 8th fret low e string,

[lawson-stone]

Thanks, think i have a grasp on the basic idea- sounds like this is not a strict thing, as long as you play the correct notes,

im reading the 1st pattern as C E G C G E C
so i can start 8th fret low e string,

Don't feel badly. I've been on lots of more 'advanced' study groups, learned Jimmy Raney solos, etc. but I'm finding these patterns hard to play fluidly, especially the ascending-descending patterns. It's revealing a bunch of gaps in my knowledge of the fretboard. I haven't posted much because I just don't feel it's worth posting yet, but I will as soon as I can get through it without too many clams.

[FwLineberry]

Thanks, think i have a grasp on the basic idea- sounds like this is not a strict thing, as long as you play the correct notes,

im reading the 1st pattern as C E G C G E C
so i can start 8th fret low e string,

Yes you can start on the 8th fret of the low E string. Then take that pattern of notes and follow the chord progression laid out on top of the staff.

.

[FwLineberry]

Here are the fingerings I'm using for the chromatic sequence. I was going to leave this out of my practice set this week but thought it would be interesting to see how it would go above the 12th fret.

I'm using only fingers 1-3 except for the ascending F chord where I use my 3rd and 4th fingers The D and E chords use a completely different fingering for ascending and descending.


Major Arpeggios - Chromatic- 14th Position.pdf



Looking ahead, I noticed that minor triads get only two exercises. That seems like an afterthought having gone through 12 exercises for major triads. Are minor triads something that jazz players tend to be less involved with?

.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Interesting. Ascending/descending triads mostly. .

[matt.guitarteacher]

Looking ahead, I noticed that minor triads get only two exercises. That seems like an afterthought having gone through 12 exercises for major triads. Are minor triads something that jazz players tend to be less involved with?.

Yeah. The book is front loaded pretty heavily with the major stuff. I figure that the beginning is about learning a lot of the rhythms, patterns and cycles etc as much as it is about learning "major". There are also pages like 61 and 80 with instructions for how to apply previous patterns etc.

[FwLineberry]

Yeah. The book is front loaded pretty heavily with the major stuff. I figure that the beginning is about learning a lot of the rhythms, patterns and cycles etc as much as it is about learning "major". There are also pages like 61 and 80 with instructions for how to apply previous patterns etc.

I thought maybe that was the case... getting familiar with your instrument in the beginning and with that familiarity going after more complex stuff.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I thought maybe that was the case... getting familiar with your instrument in the beginning and with that familiarity going after more complex stuff.

To me, major triads are theoretically easier maybe , maybe easier on the brain at first etc., but they're actually technically more difficult to play than the sixth or seventh chords in my opinion.

[FwLineberry]

Here are my fingerings for the chromatic sequence in positions 9 and 10. All the fingerings turned out to be pretty straight forward in this location. The Bb chord was a little awkward, so I opted to reach down to the 8th fret for the root on that one.


Major Arpeggios - Minor 3rds- 9th Position.pdf


Now to get these all worked up and recorded.

.

[fep]

A bit of a struggle for me technically and I didn't do myself any favors trying to do it to a swing drum track...

[FwLineberry]

To me, major triads are theoretically easier maybe , maybe easier on the brain at first etc., but they're actually technically more difficult to play than the sixth or seventh chords in my opinion.

I meant more complex harmonically. The minor section seems to jump right into min7 stuff and run through those chords quite a bit. It just struck me as odd that so little focus is given to minor triads.

.

[bako]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried playing the examples on single strings?
Any 2 adjacent single strings would allow completion of each example.
While doing so is likely to evoke a slower tempo, it offers an opportunity to improve shifting skills.
Anyway, it is an additional fingering experiment I would suggest giving a try.

[android]

Yes you can start on the 8th fret of the low E string. Then take that pattern of notes and follow the chord progression laid out on top of the staff.

.

Thanks. there seems to be a lot of variations on the patterns that can be tried
just need to memorise so i can at least play through one time!

[matt.guitarteacher]

A bit of a struggle for me technically and I didn't do myself any favors trying to do it to a swing drum track...]

Sounds great, Frank. Thanks for posting these. I like the swing feel a lot.

[matt.guitarteacher]

You seem to have this first material under your hands pretty well even in your rough takes. Is that from having gone through this book already or just from general familiarity?

In thinking about this some more the last couple of days and about something Lawson mentioned above, I thought I would just post my thoughts on some technical aspects. First of all, let me just say that I think this week's patterns are just stinking difficult on guitar. If you can somewhat get through, it doesn't get much more difficult TECHNICALLY in the following weeks IMO. At least not at the same progressive rate.

The main problems probably aren't chord form problems or fretboard knowledge problems as much as technical. All of these factors contribute to the basic issues of greeting the notes out on time, but personally, I think the technical ones are the biggest bottlenecks.

I posted a somewhat rambling video on this, but basically to answer Forrest' s question, I DID a lot of work on this stuff the last 2-3 years on other material. It's actually somewhat unrelated musically, but THAT'S the very REASON that I think these issues are mostly TECHNICAL: because the benefits of that work pay off in interrogated musical contexts.

The main issue with ascending/descending lines in different positions on guitar IMO is mostly to do with THUMB/hand position and awareness. If you find a position which basically works as a kind of better average position for ALL notes in position, it will help overall, even if it feels weaker at first on STARTING notes etc.

So, whatever feels good for the bottom note, may feel worse for the top note and vice versa. There needs th be a compromise position. I personally like to work on this by playing VERY slowly and not lifting a finger from its previous location until absolutely necessary. This teaches your hand a good position for the ENTIRE position, rather than just the starting pitch(es). I personally wonder about the likelihood that mostly problems with descending lines stem from playing them with an ascending-favoring hand position etc.

Also, shifting up or down a fret/frets can wreak havoc (at least for me). I finally got around most of this a couple of years ago by making one mental switch: I stopped thinking about where my next FINGER was going to be planted (like index, middle etc) and started beginning with THUMB placement as being the first thought.

This one visualization adjustment gave me immediate and profound technical improvement with Randy Vincent's shift-intensive exercises.

Anyway, there are a few other thoughts as well. I personally believe that implementing a few of these earlier on would have saved me some time. So, I thought it'd at least share. Take what you like and leave the rest. :-)

[fep]

I'm having a bit of indecision on how to finger (left hand) some of these exercises. I've never ran across so many difficult left hand fingerings, it makes me wonder about the practicality of these exercises when trying to stay within 5 frets. Usually when I play I tend to skate up and down the fretboard, maybe that's why I don't usually have these fingering issues.

When learning a classical piece you proceed slowly and figure out the best fingerings to play the piece smoothly.

When improvising I'm thinking you don't have that luxury, at least once the tempo increases and it's a long string of continous eighth notes or faster I don't have time to figure out the optimal fingering. In the improvising case I would go to my default fingering.

The following image shows the same notes and position for both measures with one change in the left hand fingering (the numbers above the notes are the left hand fingerings). The first measure is my default and I'll call that my improvising fingering. The second measure is how I would finger those notes if I was memorizing a piece of classical music. The only difference is on the fourth note (G), improvising I play with my 2nd finger which leads to an awkward same finger, same fret, double string skip to the next note (Bb). Playing this as a memorized piece I would use my 3rd finger on that fourth note so I can smooth out the transition to the next note.

What do you think is better for the purposes of these exercises?

[fep]

Hey Matt, we are fellow Squire players. I have a Classic Vibe 50s tele and a Japanese Squire Strat from the mid 1980s. Great values.

I started that previous post before I saw your post. Both technical, glad that we weren't adressing the same issue.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm having a bit of indecision on how to finger (left hand) some of these exercises. I've never ran across so many difficult left hand fingerings, it makes me wonder about the practicality of these exercises when trying to stay within 5 frets. Usually when I play I tend to skate up and down the fretboard, maybe that's why I don't usually have these fingering issues.

When learning a classical piece you proceed slowly and figure out the best fingerings to play the piece smoothly.

When improvising I'm thinking you don't have that luxury, at least once the tempo increases and it's a long string of continous eighth notes or faster I don't have time to figure out the optimal fingering. In the improvising case I would go to my default fingering.

The following image shows the same notes and position for both measures with one change in the left hand fingering (the numbers above the notes are the left hand fingerings). The first measure is my default and I'll call that my improvising fingering. The second measure is how I would finger those notes if I was memorizing a piece of classical music. The only difference is on the fourth note (G), improvising I play with my 2nd finger which leads to an awkward same finger, same fret, double string skip to the next note (Bb). Playing this as a memorized piece I would use my 3rd finger on that fourth note so I can smooth out the transition to the next note.

What do you think is better for the purposes of these exercises?

Interesting. This is actually something I'm touching on as well. For me, the default is super important. I've noticed that I basically play much faster and cleaner if I'm using a more awkward default fingering which I actually KNOW, vs less familiar fingerings which may actually solve surface level issues.

I'm kind of compartmentalizing some of this. I'm taking the opportunity to flesh out less familiar fingerings. I'm imposing somewhat arbitrary "rules" for patterns and fret ranges etc for the purpose of keeping things simpler for my own understanding.

Anyway, it's complicated. Shedding the transition between 2 patterns which are giving trouble pays a lot of benefits toward unrelated technical situations down the road. The fear of lost opportunity cost thing can really way heavily if you haven't experienced enough of this. I always hear things like "When are you going to play a chromatic chord sequence in 12 keys that way in real music?" etc. Those kind of things always strike me as coming from a place of never hanging seen a technical process through to its end.

Sorry to ramble. Whatever you're doing seems to be working, Frank. Very relaxed looking left hand and good technique from what I can see.

[FwLineberry]

In thinking about this some more the last couple of days and about something Lawson mentioned above, I thought I would just post my thoughts on some technical aspects. First of all, let me just say that I think this week's patterns are just stinking difficult on guitar. If you can somewhat get through, it doesn't get much more difficult TECHNICALLY in the following weeks IMO. At least not at the same progressive rate.

The main problems probably aren't chord form problems or fretboard knowledge problems as much as technical. All of these factors contribute to the basic issues of greeting the notes out on time, but personally, I think the technical ones are the biggest bottlenecks.

I posted a somewhat rambling video on this, but basically to answer Forrest' s question, I DID a lot of work on this stuff the last 2-3 years on other material. It's actually somewhat unrelated musically, but THAT'S the very REASON that I think these issues are mostly TECHNICAL: because the benefits of that work pay off in interrogated musical contexts.

The main issue with ascending/descending lines in different positions on guitar IMO is mostly to do with THUMB/hand position and awareness. If you find a position which basically works as a kind of better average position for ALL notes in position, it will help overall, even if it feels weaker at first on STARTING notes etc.

So, whatever feels good for the bottom note, may feel worse for the top note and vice versa. There needs th be a compromise position. I personally like to work on this by playing VERY slowly and not lifting a finger from its previous location until absolutely necessary. This teaches your hand a good position for the ENTIRE position, rather than just the starting pitch(es). I personally wonder about the likelihood that mostly problems with descending lines stem from playing them with an ascending-favoring hand position etc.

Also, shifting up or down a fret/frets can wreak havoc (at least for me). I finally got around most of this a couple of years ago by making one mental switch: I stopped thinking about where my next FINGER was going to be planted (like index, middle etc) and started beginning with THUMB placement as being the first thought.

This one visualization adjustment gave me immediate and profound technical improvement with Randy Vincent's shift-intensive exercises.

Anyway, there are a few other thoughts as well. I personally believe that implementing a few of these earlier on would have saved me some time. So, I thought it'd at least share. Take what you like and leave the rest. :-)

Thanks for posting. I'm enjoying your rambling videos too.

I think you've got a very good point about thumb position. That's something I'm struggling with at the moment. My hand positions have gone to pot. A combination of age, getting too fat and the last seven years hanging on to a steering wheel for ten hours a day as a long haul truck driver have left my hands and wrists pretty stiff.

I gave up playing electric that entire time. Now that I've dug them back out of the cases I'm having a hard time making friends with them again. I haven't found the right strap height or angle to work from yet.

One thing that I do like about doing these arpeggio drills is it's helping me to get some relaxation and positioning back into my hands.

I'm having a bit of indecision on how to finger (left hand) some of these exercises. I've never ran across so many difficult left hand fingerings, it makes me wonder about the practicality of these exercises when trying to stay within 5 frets. Usually when I play I tend to skate up and down the fretboard, maybe that's why I don't usually have these fingering issues.

When learning a classical piece you proceed slowly and figure out the best fingerings to play the piece smoothly.

When improvising I'm thinking you don't have that luxury, at least once the tempo increases and it's a long string of continous eighth notes or faster I don't have time to figure out the optimal fingering. In the improvising case I would go to my default fingering.

The following image shows the same notes and position for both measures with one change in the left hand fingering (the numbers above the notes are the left hand fingerings). The first measure is my default and I'll call that my improvising fingering. The second measure is how I would finger those notes if I was memorizing a piece of classical music. The only difference is on the fourth note (G), improvising I play with my 2nd finger which leads to an awkward same finger, same fret, double string skip to the next note (Bb). Playing this as a memorized piece I would use my 3rd finger on that fourth note so I can smooth out the transition to the next note.

What do you think is better for the purposes of these exercises?

I opted for the second fingering for the purposes of this approach. In a live playing situation, I would most likely go to the Bb with my index finger rather than go for the G with my ring finger. I've been approaching these exercises more as etudes, though.

.

[lawson-stone]

To note the obvious... these patterns highlight precisely the challenge of playing guitar. On a horn, or on a piano, the notes are just one one place. Middle C is only at Middle C and one single pattern repeats. The guitar is rich because say, Middle C is in several spots, patterns shift, the geometry as it were is much more complex until one has the "Reg Moment" in which the entire fingerboard coalesces into one position. My efforts on this are still humiliatingly awkward, but exactly where they get awkward is where I need to be working, so it's all good. I don't make a living at this, which is probably a good thing.

[Michael Kaye]

Holy cow... It's funny, because I was gonna make a post about the technical aspects of these exercises and how I had pretty much decided to go back to horn playing...

First of all, my time got very limited over the last week and a half and it's spreading into this week as well.

I finally got through 5 and 6 to the 160 tempos in all permutations and boy, I'm running in to all kinds of technical aspects that are showing up as weak points in my playing. I'm currently getting 7 and 8 up to tempo and looking ahead to the next couple of patterns. Sorry for not posting my examples as I want to stay current with the accountability aspect of this but I have been swamped lately and it's been rough. But I will get some examples up soon.

I'm trying to use my best intuition with regard to fingering - balancing what I perceive to be logical finger choices vs not giving up on something just because it's so dang difficult. I've made progress and some things that were seemingly impossible have gotten better. I agree, it's not about fretboard knowledge and it's much more about fingering choices and practicality.

So, I'm trying not to fall apart here at the seams and I've relaxed on a few ideas about strict position. I've gone to a more general approach of playing in a wider area to solve some fingering issues while trying to maintain some logic of moving through the various pattern intervals.

The short story is I'm trying not to get too hung up on confusion of fingering choices at the cost of moving through the book at a reasonable pace and simplifying my approach a little bit so I can proceed with the larger benefit, in my mind anyway, of understanding the relationships of movement in the various intervals. I feel in general these are early phase growing pains and I am benefiting in a satisfactory way from this study. For example, I didn't catch on initially that the minor third intervals were moving in 4ths and once I had resolved this it got easier to navigate.

Re: Minor triads - I read on page 26 (around pattern 40 something) that the student can adjust the scale degrees, like flatting the third to suit minor lines when practicing these exercises over real chord changes so I think some aspect of this is left up to us to explore further on up the road. Also, when we get to 7th chords, we will naturally be playing minor triads as part of the chord extensions too. Right now I'm content to go along with this study as written and exploring this further after I get over the technical bumps that I'm running in to right now.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Here's my proposed schedule for April:

April 7: 13-15
April 14: 16-17
April 21: 18-21
April 28: 22-23

That breaks up the odd 5-patterns for the next would-be grouping and might allow a breather and some catch-up time for this week, as it's one of the more difficult ones IMO. The 6th chord patterns should be much more manageable really.

Please post late rather than never. I always posted late on practical standards and wished others would as well. I actually love it when newcomers post their progress on fep's Modern Method threads, years later. I think that's the way it should be for something like that.

Thanks for all of the great posts and input the last couple of days. I think the more we post and discuss very specific issues or problems, the better the thread will be.