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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Some of those exercises include directions to go back and redo the previous exercises with the new pattern. Is that just going to be added into what gets covered in a week or stretch things out another week?
    Ok. So I never fully answered this I guess. I'd like to keep moving as much as possible. Let's see what we can do with the current schedule. I intend to post as much of what I can of patterns 5-8 this upcoming week, including the extra cycles in the "apply the same principles..." subtext for 5 and 6.

    Maybe, if we can't manage some of the extra cycles, just post the basic notated version and include the others in our "review queue"? Let me know your thoughts on this strategy as you work through the material.

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  3. #52

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    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    At that point, I'd suggest that patterns 5 and 6 make a set. 7 and 8 make a set with 9 and 10.

    Similarly, 11 and 12 make a set and 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 make a set.

    .
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?

  5. #54

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    I think the fingering issues we are all having is on #2 . If we count from C to C there are twelve choices to be made as of playing it up or down with respect to the note we're coming from. As octaves are not mentioned ( in bar 3 of the example there are 2 choices for the Bb) I've found myself descending lower and lower on the neck by playing the Bb triad next to the C I started from etc. I didn't like the result nor the direction it was taking the exercise, so I found I like it better when I play in the higher octave instead of the lower when I have to play the Bb triad and the B, by doing so you have the following sequence. I'll post a video when I have a guitar around.

    U U D U D U U D U D U U

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  6. #55
    Great! Look forward to this. I really enjoy the process part. For me, I'm coming from 7-patterns in-position, which leaves 5 above or below. I'm basically defaulting to moving down a fret, so, from 7th position to 6th position. Octave is mostly determined by my personal like/or dislike at the moment. :-)

    I've found that my choices are slightly different for pattern five for example, because it has different melodic implications with the movement, but it's mostly personal taste still.

    On a side note, I feel like it's probably an important part of the process for many of us to kind of develop our own fingerings, but I wonder if it might not be helpful to more beginner observers if we posted some of our fingerings in the way of grids etc.? Also, just as a way of sharing with each other...

    I'd love to see playing examples from some of the likes of Reg, Christian, M-ster etcby weeks end, ....in addition to some more newbie players. Questions re all aspects of this, from all levels, will help maintain interest.

  7. #56

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    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I agree with all of this structurally. The nerd in me wants to compartmentalize by type somewhat. I also want to keep moving, and I feel that we'll be looking ahead most of the time anyway.

    Pace is the big question mark for me in keeping motivation and interest. If it's too slow, does it bog down? The accountability aspect requires a pace that isn't too fast as well. In the beginning, it may be easier to err on the slower side and pick up the pace as needed, as we get in the groove with the cycles themselves, which are constant throughout the book.

    There are certainly layers of complexity to be added. For myself, playing these in- position for a relatively short time in a busy last week or so, I find myself looking at additional positions etc. I don't know that I'm gonna find myself bored at any particular pace , and I'm always going to be working ahead . There's kind of a readthrough stage and polishing stage /review stage for me, and those are two different places in the book.

    For this week, let's aim for as solid as we can manage with posting on patterns 5 & 6. Maybe consider 7 & 8 somewhat extra credit, and let's offer some feedback on pace. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Additionally, please offer thoughts/questions etc on upcoming things you're working on in the more mapping-out stages. For those working ahead in preliminary stages, what are you working on? What are your thoughts?
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  9. #58

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    I'm steadily working on this. I don't have time to post an example today but I will hopefully by Sunday and then I'll be ready to move to the next set of patterns.

    To summarize:

    I worked all the patterns to the suggested tempos.

    I've been a 5/7 position player for a long time but what I worked out was covering 2 octaves in 3 positions with the Root of C on the 5th string as position 1, which basically covers the first 5 frets, Then the Root on 6th string with 4th finger , then Root on 6th string with 1st finger. This I found to be basically covering the fretboard from 0 to 12 and slightly beyond blending in to first postion. I'm quite satisfied with this arrangement as I feel I have a good overiew of the fretboard with this arrangement.

    Then, I went down the rabbit hole, and this is what I meant by 3 months of study, hah
    just for fun, I started modifying the pattern, to inversions. Same rhythmic figures, but sequencing 351 and 513. talk about a headache! This is just me, and I may be getting beyond the scope of this first set of exercises but I was having fun exploring this idea. And it's not so bad.

    And to continue down the rabbit hole I slightly modified the triad patterns to be continuous , no half notes or tied notes so I could make continuous sequences out of the patterns. (no new notes, still just triad notes). Here my tempo suffers a little

    And finally, I did work patterns up the neck sequentially on the same fingerings, same strings because, why not? haha

    Just to be clear, I'm sticking to the program as laid out in the book - I don't want to go crazy adding a bunch of stuff to it- but I had some extra time this week so I kind of ran with it.

    I also found that while I liked working with iReal Pro, I often mixed it with straight metronome about 1/2 & 1/2 so that I could correct mistakes on the fly. I like it both ways.

    I haven't ventured in to the next set of patterns yet.


    This is really a blast guys. So enjoying this exercise.

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Pattern 1 at 110 bpm, 2,3,4 all at 132 bpm

    Tried to keep it all within 5 frets, I only left the 5 fret boundary once as far as I can see. On pattern 1 I took it further to cover every note in 5 frets (C on the 6th string 8th fret to E on the 1st string 12th fret).

    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?

  11. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I'm terribly busy too and would like to stay as close to just playing the numbered exercises straight through, and then others who can and wish to do more, can do so, and inspire us all.
    To clarify, you're talking about posting the notated versions only (and not the additional "apply the same principle..." parts), this keeping to roughly 4-patterns-per-week?

    What was talked about above was spending longer time on fewer patterns , when they involve "apply the same principle". So, you'd do a week on 5 & 6 only, since they suggest "doing the same" with the previous 3 cycles.

    I'm a fan of the "extra credit" model, but I think erring on the side of slower may be beneficial to start.

    Thanks for your input. You're another study group boss. Between you and Frank....lots of mojo. :-)

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Good stuff, Frank. Sounds great. Honestly, I'll never get used to looking at that backward pick slant and seeing it properly. I look at myself playing even, and it always looks like the video is out of sync or something. My eyes can't seem to make sense of it. Ha!

    What are you using for drums?
    Thanks Matt. Yeah that pick slanting came from the Benson picking thread.

    For drums I'm using EZDrummer 2. That's a program that has really well done drum samples from several kits (you can buy more kits also) and has midi drum patterns. You can also import other midi libraries from them or 3rd parties, you can play your own midi, or program your own etc. The company is toontrack and the midi that they do was played by professional drummers, it's not snapped to the grid and has a human feel.

    I like to record and write tunes, EZdrummer 2 is great in that I can play in a basic groove, search for similar grooves, sequence them, and then surgically modify them if I want.

    I don't have many choices for 5/4, that pattern had me thinking of buying the odd time signature midi groove expansion... it can be a rabbit hole.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  13. #62

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    I'm thinking about getting that. Seems ideal for this sort of practice.

    What's the cost, about 10 bucks or so?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  14. #63

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    Ok, here's #1. I come up with something similar to fep, staying in a 5 frets range regarding the starting note of the triad, not so much the rest.
    I identified octaves from C to C, by doing so i came up with 6 way to play it.
    From C-6th string going to the to left to C-3rd string
    From C-6th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-5th string going to the left to C-1st string (this one done starting on the 15th fret to avoid open strings)
    From C-5th string going to the right to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the left initially but resorting to go to the left in the end to C-1st string
    From C-4th string going to the right ending in C-1st string



    And here is #2




    And here is #3


    And here is #4

    Last edited by benjaminjoe; 03-10-2019 at 06:32 AM.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    Ok, here's #1.
    Wow. Nice. You're covering a lot of real estate, in the first one especially.

    Looks like mostly a three finger approach with the left hand I guess? Also, the way you are cycling chords is pretty different. It's cool to see these different approaches. Thanks for posting and for describing what you're doing as well.

    I hadn't seen much of you before this thread. Good to have you on board.

  16. #65

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    Thanks. May I ask what do you mean by Cycling chords? I tend to use the ring finger for the Caged E form I arpeggio . For the rest I stay in somewhat CAGED forms except for some occasional finger stretch derived from 3nps I guess? Mostly when the index finger is closer than the middle for a form that would require it.

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  17. #66
    Yeah the patterns move in cycles: half steps: C-Db-D... or fourths: C-F-Bb... Etc.

    The choices of where to shift to a new position is slightly different with the various players posting in third thread. Anyway, just thought the way you're playing was interesting and different. Thanks for posting.

  18. #67

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    Hey, guys,
    I did get drumgenius and like it a lot. Fun to practice with and also fun to play some of my own songs with it.
    But since I use the same phone to record (via iTrack Pocket), I can't record the drum part AND the guitar. At least, I haven't figured out how to. Anyone else know????
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  19. #68

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    Frank is your man, Mark

    but if you want to go quick and dirty, I'm running everything through an FRFR cab from my iPad and just recording it "live" on my phone. I think that's fine for these exercises.

    I'm not familiar with Drum Genius. can you load an app on your computer? Or sign in on DG on the computer and run it through monitors and then run headphone outs or line outs back to Phone? (but you might not get voice)

    there are a few ways you could go but Frank might be the better man to help you.
    Last edited by Michael Kaye; 03-11-2019 at 12:49 AM.

  20. #69

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    I was reading about Drum Genuis on their site. Those drums were created using a keyboard and drum samples. So I'm thinking they must have the underlying midi files. I sent them a message asking if they would make the midi files available for sale.

    Mark, I just experimented with my Samsung S8 phone. I played some music from Google play, flipped over to the recorder while the music was still playing, but once I hit record the music stopped.

    But, being stubborn... I tried again, this time I started recording first, then flipped over to Google play, played music and was able to record at the same time.

    I then tried it with video, no matter what I tried I couldn't get the phone video to record at the same time as I was playing Google play from the phone.

    This is probably only of value if you have a Samsung.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  21. #70
    Mark, you're just going to have to get a second phone. ;-)

    Seriously though, this would be a pretty good task for a retired smart phone off yours or a friend. One thought I'd using an old one just for dinner/metronome duties.

  22. #71
    I always thought drum genius was cool, but the last couple of weeks, I've been plugging it into speakers, and it's just fantastic that way. I picked up a separate camera a few months ago, and it frees up a lot with phone options.

  23. #72

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    Didn't quite make it in by Sunday, but I'll blame it on the time change.

    Here are patterns 1-4 at 115 bpm, 2nd position, roots on A, D and G strings.

    Pattern 1:



    Pattern 2:



    Pattern 3:



    Pattern 4:





    I think I would give these at least another week of practice before moving on to the next set of drills, but I don't want to fall behind the group. I'm trying to work them through nine positions, but concentrated on only three positions as far as the group is concerned - starting with middle finger on the E, A and D strings. For my own benefit, I'm also starting with index and pinky on the E, A and D strings. For each set I'm using only the starting string and the next two higher strings for roots. This is forcing me to get better acquainted with the middle strings which is a real weak spot for me.

    My approach will probably change as needed as we progress through each set of exercises.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Didn't quite make it in by Sunday, but I'll blame it on the time change.

    Here are patterns 1-4 at 115 bpm, 2nd position, roots on A, D and G strings.

    Pattern 1:



    Pattern 2:



    Pattern 3:



    Pattern 4:





    I think I would give these at least another week of practice before moving on to the next set of drills, but I don't want to fall behind the group. I'm trying to work them through nine positions, but concentrated on only three positions as far as the group is concerned - starting with middle finger on the E, A and D strings. For my own benefit, I'm also starting with index and pinky on the E, A and D strings. For each set I'm using only the starting string and the next two higher strings for roots. This is forcing me to get better acquainted with the middle strings which is a real weak spot for me.

    My approach will probably change as needed as we progress through each set of exercises.

    .
    Did you play the two C measures in the same octave? Also I notice a lot of stretching, is that from the positions you are using?

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  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Mark, you're just going to have to get a second phone. ;-)

    Seriously though, this would be a pretty good task for a retired smart phone off yours or a friend. One thought I'd using an old one just for dinner/metronome duties.
    That's what I was afraid of!

    The other option is to use the phone for drumgenius and just record audio with a Zoom recorder.

    I have a webcam and it's a fine camera but I don't like the sound of it. Will have to experiment, I guess.

    But I'm happy with drumgenius. It's fun to practice with, much more engaging than a metronome.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    That's what I was afraid of!

    The other option is to use the phone for drumgenius and just record audio with a Zoom recorder.

    I have a webcam and it's a fine camera but I don't like the sound of it. Will have to experiment, I guess.

    But I'm happy with drumgenius. It's fun to practice with, much more engaging than a metronome.
    I picked up a zoom Q2n several months ago, and I love it. Free up the phone for other uses. Anyway, best of both worlds: field recorder with okay video instead of the other way around. I can justify it pretty well with videos I do for students etc, but I actually found this one on sale for about $20 cheaper on Amazon, because it's a different color. It was one of the last white ones and they were trying to get rid of them I guess.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    Did you play the two C measures in the same octave? Also I notice a lot of stretching, is that from the positions you are using?

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    Thanks for checking them out.

    In the first exercise I played the octave C arpeggio off the D string root with the pinky. The B and C arpeggios require octave displacement of the upper root to stay in position. In the second pattern, I just landed on the C an octave lower. In the third pattern, I use the C off the D string with the pinky, again. The fourth pattern doesn't utilize the octave pattern.

    The finger stretches are due to an attempt to stay in strict position - the middle finger never leaves the 3rd fret and the ring finger never leaves the 4th fret. Some of the fingerings and stretches aren't exactly practical that low on the neck. The Db requires stretching the first finger down one fret and the pinky finger up one fret. The Bb requires the same. In lower positions, my hands don't make the stretches anymore, so I end up stretching as far as I can and pivoting off the thumb to make the final distance. It's obviously easier to move the hand up or down a fret than try to stay in position, but I'm trying to break myself of the habit of just moving to the most comfortable spot to play something.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    Thanks for checking them out.

    In the first exercise I played the octave C arpeggio off the D string root with the pinky. The B and C arpeggios require octave displacement of the upper root to stay in position. In the second pattern, I just landed on the C an octave lower. In the third pattern, I use the C off the D string with the pinky, again. The fourth pattern doesn't utilize the octave pattern.

    The finger stretches are due to an attempt to stay in strict position - the middle finger never leaves the 3rd fret and the ring finger never leaves the 4th fret. Some of the fingerings and stretches aren't exactly practical that low on the neck. The Db requires stretching the first finger down one fret and the pinky finger up one fret. The Bb requires the same. In lower positions, my hands don't make the stretches anymore, so I end up stretching as far as I can and pivoting off the thumb to make the final distance. It's obviously easier to move the hand up or down a fret than try to stay in position, but I'm trying to break myself of the habit of just moving to the most comfortable spot to play something.

    .
    That's an interesting way to play them! I tried to stay in position as well but is suspect the way pros play everyday involve a lot of shifting

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  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminjoe View Post
    That's an interesting way to play them! I tried to stay in position as well but is suspect the way pros play everyday involve a lot of shifting

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    No doubt. Most often you see CAGED position playing which specifically avoids finger stretches. Probably the only real-world application for strict position playing is for sight reading.

    My goal with these exercises is to develop the ability to be anywhere on the fingerboard and play an Amaj7 arpeggio without having to stop and think about it or move to a specific location or specific string set, much like a horn player or piano player would approach it. They just alter the notes they're playing rather than move a finger shape to the 5th fret. To that end, I'm trying to avoid pattern playing - just move up two frets and play the C shape - and force myself to see the notes I'm playing.

    It's hard to keep my brain from organizing patterns and shapes though. Once that happens, I start going on autopilot.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  30. #79

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    After looking over exercises 5-12, They're really just three variations going trough the same chord cycles we've already used:

    1. Up each arpeggio
    2. Up one - down the next
    3. Down one - up the next


    The only difference is quarter notes for full measures vs. eighth notes for half measures. Since I'm not reading these, the only real difference is speed. Eighth notes at 80 is the same thing as quarter notes at 160.

    I'm thinking I'm just going to combine it all into one exercise and add down each arpeggio as a fourth variation.

    Thoughts anyone?

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  31. #80
    Yeah. Subtle variations, especially at the front end of the book. I'm not going to be posting more than four per week. I'm at the 1-2-3-5 patterns for my more exploratory, wood-shedding work on this book. I think the idea of having a couple of benchmark patterns to post in a given week might be an okay idea - so 2 patterns which basically represent the work done on four or more etc... I'm fine either way.

    I'm willing to do what most everyone thinks best. Personally, I view things which we post as being more about accountability and just sharing . They are never going to represent EXACTLY where I am in the book probably. Hard to say what everyone thinks without more input. Counting yours, I think we've gotten two comments so far regarding pace. It would be cool to have others input.

    Beyond all of that, I would personally make a distinction between quarters and eighths, but my stated goal is to swing these exercises above all else. I somewhat understand that they're the same if you're playing them straight as an exercise etc.

    Anyone else with thoughts on pace? Do we want to pick a couple of benchmark patterns to post each week and group more by pattern type? Do you want to maintain current pace?

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    ... The only difference is quarter notes for full measures vs. eighth notes for half measures. Since I'm not reading these, the only real difference is speed. Eighth notes at 80 is the same thing as quarter notes at 160.

    Thoughts anyone?

    .
    I I was to do such exercise, playing in 1/4 would be all down strokes, playing in 1/8 would be alternate.
    ^ ^ ^
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  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    I I was to do such exercise, playing in 1/4 would be all down strokes, playing in 1/8 would be alternate.

    That's how I handle it as well. That's probably enough of a reason to go through them both ways. So I'll add that back in.

    Thanks for the input.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    I'm willing to do what most everyone thinks best. Personally, I view things which we post as being more about accountability and just sharing . They are never going to represent EXACTLY where I am in the book probably. Hard to say what everyone thinks without more input. Counting yours, I think we've gotten two comments so far regarding pace. It would be cool to have others input.
    I like the two-pages a week pace. It's doable. And if one misses---life intervenes, after all---then one does not feel hopelessly far behind.

    There's going to be a lot of repetition in the early patterns. I think it's important to post SOMETHING just to do it, to be part of the group and participating. Some of us may need work others don't. Maybe it's the progressions. For example, I'm not used to cycling things in minor thirds, so that's a big thing to me. But whereas chromatic ascents may be challenging on a horn---I have no idea---they are practically mindless on the guitar.

    But I don't think anyone is responsible for posting every pattern. (Unless they feel a need to do that, which is fine, but most of us don't have that need.)

    Stay in, keep talking, and we'll see how it goes. ;o)
    "