-
I‘m playing with a singer, and we want to do Come Sunday at a tempo of 60 bpm. I need to keep a steady tempo for her to phrase over. However I seem to be rushing all the time - there is a clock on the wall and I gauge myself against the second hand. Things aren‘t helped by the fact that by myself, I‘d take the tune at around 80 bpm.
I won‘t have the clock at the gig obviously, and I don‘t like the idea of bringing a metronome. Besides, I tend to speed up anyway. So what would you advise to stop me from rushing?
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
-
02-17-2019 05:05 PM
-
Tempo isn't arbitrary. Each tempo implies something different in terms of subdivision and feel.
Without getting too philosophical, the tempo has to have a "why?" aspect to it. In my opinion, you should never be playing the same thing when you change the tempo. As a general rule, the slower you play, the more you subdivide and the more "busy" things become generally, in terms of notes per beat.
Listen to Wes play Misty really slow. He plays way MORE on that slow tune, but it's a chicken-egg thing really. The playing-more part really answers the whole WHY of the tempo in the first place, more than being a justification for the slow tempo. Most would NEVER play Misty that slow, but he has very good reason for it, and it slowly reveals itself over the courseof the tune. Building throughout.
You really should be able to play any ballad in a slow, blues, 12/8 feel. If you shed a type of 12/8 "overplaying" style on slow ballads, you will eventually arrive at some basic quarter note triplet patterns. You can cross bar lines with these and establish patterns that are four bars or so , and give real organization and purpose to slower tempos. Really establishes a groove for singer as well.
Working on this 12/8 feel on ballads did more to open up my SINGING than anything I've ever done. Everything the songs have to teach us in the smaller cracks. You'll find that you're actually more creative, you hear better, you phrase better everything - when you start delving into the cracks between. Eventually, becomes slow doubletime feel. (Listen to Keith Jarrett trio for that, but that's later. Anyway, sounds like sixteenths swinging etc.)
All of the music is in the subdivisions. Really.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-17-2019 at 11:03 PM.
-
I don't know, and if I did know, it probably wouldn't be the same for everyone.
That said, I agree with the post about subdivisions.
120 bpm is, somehow, a very natural tempo. By that, I mean, if you count off the Sousa march Stars and Stripes Forever, you're likely to be at exactly 120 bpm. Really. Well, not really, but close.
I'd suggest tapping your foot at 120 bpm while playing at 60bpm. Maybe it will be harder to rush if you're already at 120 in your mind and foot.
-
The thing I would do Is use a metronome at 60 and have it going all the time when you are doing other things .eating watching tV even driveing In about 2 days you will have that beat down, so much so that you will catch your self when you start to speed up but that's only if you are thinking about the beat while you play
-
I have an unresearched, totally empirical and unofficial theory - Tempo Gravity - the idea that we tend to move to tempos we are either more comfortable with or have a lot of experience playing with. I find this especially true with slow ballads.
I often have students complain that a tempo is too slow and doesnt feel natural on ballads. They complain that it "drags" and they invariably try to speed them up so they are more comfortable.
This may or may not be exactly what you are experiencing but the solution that I have come up with, is to have them take one single song that they know well, and then I have them play that song at it's natural tempo and then have them play it at varying tempos +/- 10bpm until they get a little confidence they can vary a tempo comfortably.
I then have them play the piece they are trying to play slowly and move it around in various tempos until they get the idea they can make it feel natural at different tempos. then I have them work at the slower tempo and they get the idea they can hold that tempo.
This somehow seems to break that pattern of always gravitating to another fixed tempo. and it seems to work both ways too, for songs that people tend to slow down that should be kept up tempo.
I have a similar theory for how people drive on the roads, Haha
give it a try....
-
Find a tune/recording at that tempo, and learn it by ear. Listen to it a lot. Make it part of you.
-
Lean back. Helps a little.
Listen to hiphop.
Think a few bars ahead.
-
You say you don’t want to bring a metronome, yet you rely on the second hand of a clock. A metronome with a visual component to it as with a metronome app or a digital metronome may help with it silenced. On the other hand, my personal preference given similar circumstances would be to simply practice over and over at 60bpm, and to try and focus more on listening to your band mates during the tune and keeping up with their tempo if that makes sense. I used to lock in with our drummer who always had very good time, and that helped me.
-
Why?
Originally Posted by docsteve
Our band NEVER plays live without a click. Several members of said band are first call musicians in KC (not me), so I'm not talking about neophytes here.
-
Like piano, guitar is a percussive instrument. If you play straight quarter notes on something at 60 bpm, you have time to get a sandwich between clicks, and because it isn't an instrument which has real possibility for crescendo etc, you're basically required to do something with the phrasing.
Listen to Joe pass and Ella slow. Listen to Jarrett trio. Listen to Wes on slow ballads. They're almost never playing straight quarters. Even when they are in places, they're subdividing at a much lower level with releases, slides, ghost notes etc. Even if you're just playing quarters, you should be "hearing" more subdivision.
I look at a lot of piano music and work with pianists of different ability levels. Most tempo problems come from not mentally subdividing and not hearing implied bell patterns in more sparsely notated sections. Players who don't hear all of the unwritten subdivisions become quickly bored and rush.
If you were looking at something notated at this tempo, it would have actual accompaniment which IMPLIES the desired tempo. When it's just you, you have to determine the meaning yourself.
For me it begins with straight eighths.
1. Play the whole tune as an all-8th-note étude. Just play something on every one of them, even if you're just arpeggiating.
2. Syncopate 8ths. Accent every 3rd note and create simple bell pattern grooves.
3. Triplets. Play the whole tune all triplets, 12/8 ballad.
4. Syncopate. Accent every 2nd triplet in different places and you're basically working quarter note triplet feels on and off the beat throughout. (Professional players and teachers are currently obsessed with this for good reason. There's a world of great jazz feels and grooves at this level.
5. Sixteenths.
6. Syncopate. Every 3rd note beginning in different places. Latin lines here.
7. Double time. Tap your foot on every 8th note as an entry point into this feel, and work numbers 3 and 4 above. World of jazz here. Listen to Wes on tons of ballads. Keith Jarrett trio...
At each stage of this kind of thing, go back and play quarter notes and sparser rhythms. See if you can feel them differently. You should begin to hear what slow "can be" even if you're not overtly playing it. To be clear, overplaying is the exercise not the goal itself. Ear training for subdivision. Ballads will teach you to play everything else.
-
But WHY are you rushing? Any ideas? Originally Posted by docsteve
-
Thank you all for your great advice! I have already started working on subdivisions even without the instrument, using my watch as a metronome and tapping out the beats. I feel I‘m on the right path there, getting into the groove. Oddly enough, some subdivisions make me speed up right now, particularly at the turnarounds. That seems to be a thing for me: when there are many notes, I speed up. At least I‘m not alone, I know a lot of people who have the same issue.
Some things I‘d like to answer:
We don‘t have a drummer. The whole thing is an acoustic affair, I am allowed to bring an electric guitar, but that‘s as far as it goes. Hence a click track is out of the question, too.
Why am I rushing? I wish I knew - I suppose it‘s because I listened to a version of Come Sunday that‘s somewhat faster than 60 bpm and that stuck in my mind. It will take some obliterating.
Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk
-
Well, you see the point of not jumping into advice/treatment unless the disease is diagnosed first! Originally Posted by docsteve
I often start tunes quite slowly and by the end of it I've speeded up a bit. It's not because I can't keep time, it's because internally there's a sort of median pace which is right for that tune. So I stop and get it right next time, then no problem.
It's quite possible that actually 60 is too slow for you although your singer likes it. Play what you feel is better and see how she responds to it - not at first, once she's into it.
(I'd certainly forget about clocks on the wall, that's a bit crazy!)
-
The other thing, of course, is that you're simply not good at slow rhythms like that; you want to get on with it!
I've just tried it with a Ben Webster version, definitely at 60, and it was like going for a walk with someone O-L-D :-)
-
Set the metronome to 60 bpm and get used to subdividing in triplets vocally, while you play chords on the beat. Practice it until it feels natural. Originally Posted by docsteve
Slow tempos are hard.
-
I sometimes practice with a looper, which is very unforgiving. If I rush, there will be a very noticeable difference between the tempo at the end of the loop and the tempo at which I started. But I found that when I tap my foot on the 2 & 4 I tend to rush, but when I tap on the 1 & 3 I'm pretty accurate between the start & end of the loop. I got the idea from Hal Galper where he talks about the difference between being an excited played vs. an exciting player. I'm still not exciting, but it has helped my time.
Paul
-
I also use a looper. I feel like it has helped me to get better at “holding my rhythm”. One “trick” is to sing the melody. Originally Posted by PaulD
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
McCoy Tyner style Pentatonic sequence with 5ths,...
Today, 09:35 AM in Improvisation