The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Does anyone understand and can offer some help with Pat Martino's fingerings? I know there is even someone who has Pat holding up his hand demonstrating "inside/outside" as their avatar. But I find Pat incredibly difficult to parse. There seems to be a lot of... umm.. how do I put this? Otherworldly musings? It makes practical information a little bit hard to tease out.

    I am in particular trying to understand two chapters in his TrueFire course: "Outside vs. Inside" and "Stairways and Chromaticism". He demonstrates a phrase in the lower tetrachord of Gmin. Then he shows how it can be played an octave higher by alternating index and pinky as your starting point. So far, relatively straight forward and reminiscent of Howard Morgen's method of finding roots on the fretboard.

    Where it gets a little hard to understand is when he then talks about linking these "positions" with chromatics.

    First, I'm not sure what he means about "positions". He hasn't, to my understanding, demonstrated any positions. Unless he means places where the index is on the root on the 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd strings. If so, then is a position all the notes in the min/Aeolian (and judging from his book "Linear Expressions" it is Aeolian and not Dorian or some kind of Harmonic/Melodic minor) scale that can be reached within those four frets? Or what defines a "position"?

    Second, he talks about "linking" the positions with "stairways". These are for him chromatic notes. So does every lower tetrachord require "linking" to the next octave, or only when he shifts position on the neck? Otherwise, does he play the natural minor scale as long as he is in position? Where are these chromatics played, over the upper tetrachord (ie 5, b6, 6, b7, 7)?

    I have plenty of additional questions about what I believe is a very crucial part of his technique, but perhaps they will become moot if someone has a good grasp on what this all is supposed to mean.

    Thanks!

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  3. #2

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    Not familiar with the Truefire lessons, but when Martino talks about positions, generally he means areas of the freeboard. Think of chords more than scales. In his linear expressions book, these positions, or areas, are the 4 inversions of the drop 2 chord (think he uses G-7 if I remember correctly). There is a lot of Harmony implied in his lines, and he plays all that Bebop vocabulary that includes Bebop scales and chromatics, so don't think of a single scale just play them, maybe try to analyze what the implied chords are.

    At least for me, it worked in the manner of, you practice the lines, always connected to the chord's shape, and then when the chord comes along you have all this material to play. And all these ways he demonstrates of connecting the positions, aka moving to a different area on the fingerboard where another voicing of the chord is.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Does anyone understand and can offer some help with Pat Martino's fingerings? I know there is even someone who has Pat holding up his hand demonstrating "inside/outside" as their avatar. But I find Pat incredibly difficult to parse. There seems to be a lot of... umm.. how do I put this? Otherworldly musings? It makes practical information a little bit hard to tease out.

    Most of the difficulty with understanding Pat's instructional material is due to expecting great revelations to appear out of what is actually fairly basic concepts. The fact that Pat himself uses grandiose imagery and analogy when describing these concepts doesn't help matters any.



    First, I'm not sure what he means about "positions". He hasn't, to my understanding, demonstrated any positions. Unless he means places where the index is on the root on the 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd strings. If so, then is a position all the notes in the min/Aeolian (and judging from his book "Linear Expressions" it is Aeolian and not Dorian or some kind of Harmonic/Melodic minor) scale that can be reached within those four frets? Or what defines a "position"?

    That is exactly what he means when he's demonstrating those positions. There's a lot of debate about whether it's Dorian or Aeolian based, but this entirely misses the point of what he's demonstrating. This is why he simply referrers to it as an "area of activity". His organization of the fingerboard works off of the index finger and pinky finger on a given root note and in that chapter he's simply demonstrating how the "area of activity" with the index on the root is followed in succession up or down the fingerboard by the "area of activity" with the pinky on the root.

    This is just standard fingerboard organization like you'd find in any other fingerboard organization such as CAGED. The only difference being that CAGED major scale shapes avoid starting with the index finger on the root in favor of starting with the middle finger on the root.


    Second, he talks about "linking" the positions with "stairways". These are for him chromatic notes. So does every lower tetrachord require "linking" to the next octave, or only when he shifts position on the neck? Otherwise, does he play the natural minor scale as long as he is in position? Where are these chromatics played, over the upper tetrachord (ie 5, b6, 6, b7, 7)?

    Again, forget the colorful imagery. He's merely showing how he uses a series of chromatic notes to shift up or down into an adjacent area. While he's in an area, he plays minor based lines and phrases. I find it easier to see what he's doing as being built primarily off of melodic minor and Dorian mode with a good deal of chromatic approach notes setting up chord tones. He sees it as being based off relative (natural) minor.

    If you watch him play in a non-instructional setting, he doesn't restrict himself to only shifting positions using chromatic notes. It's just one of the techniques he uses. You'll also see him end a phrase and then move to a completely different area on the fingerboard to start a new phrase.

    I haven't had a chance to dig through and play all the examples in that section of the course, so I don't know what he's using as his "stairways". I know in previous material that I have worked through, he likes to descend chromatically to the root note of an area, so I don't doubt that is one of his stairways.



    I have plenty of additional questions about what I believe is a very crucial part of his technique, but perhaps they will become moot if someone has a good grasp on what this all is supposed to mean.

    Thanks!

    I think I have a pretty good intellectual grasp on his teachings. I don't have it down on the fingerboard at this point though. I'm still working through Linear Concepts and Creative Force. But feel free to ask questions and I'll try to help.

    .

  5. #4

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    I used to think he was pretentious in his style of teaching. But, now I have a different perspective. I think he is in the school of "A teacher is only there to create curiosity" (-Alan Kingstone). Looks like he's doing that in his own way.

    My avatar is because it looks like he's holding up devil horns

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    ... My avatar is because it looks like he's holding up devil horns
    Ha, great!

  7. #6

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    Over here it means...well... take a walk :-)

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    I think he is in the school of "A teacher is only there to create curiosity"
    Unfortunately with me it has the opposite effect, I run a mile. Cosmic talk from another galaxy doesn't do it for me one bit. It's just the guitar for chrissakes!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Unfortunately with me it has the opposite effect, I run a mile. Cosmic talk from another galaxy doesn't do it for me one bit. It's just the guitar for chrissakes!
    well, no, i agree with you about that. But, the best teacher I've had is very hands off and gently pushes me in the direction of self-discovery. He's opposite of martino; succinct and to the point. Maybe it would be different if I paid him, he's more of a mentor

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Over here it means...well... take a walk :-)
    i'm a hardcore punk at heart; i have no idea why i like jazz really

  11. #10
    Thanks @Fwlineberry. When I first got “Linear Expressions” I couldn’t hear his lines and got frustrated. “The Nature of Guitar” lost me after the second moonbeam interview.

    But you are right. The actual instruction is quite basic, and makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of Barry Harris in the harmonic teaching (really!). I knew if I gave him a chance there would be substance wrapped in a spacesuit; and I’ve been finding that substance.

    I suspect his fingerings could be distilled to something straight forward too. Unlike in “Linear Expressions” his current version doesn’t seem to be CAGED. Or at least is is a variant. It is interesting because Pat is one of the best at creating these perpetual motion lines. He has amazing fluidity up and down the fretboard. I suspect the nugget is small, but I’m looking for that piece he seems to use to help him move up and down the fingerboard.

    I guess his “floors” are areas of the neck where there is a root under his index on the base four strings and a related root under his pinky on the treble strings. When he moves to work from a different root he uses chromatics to a new area. I’ll give that a try.

    I think of guitar as an additive process. The more angles you approach it from, the more fluent you become.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    i'm a hardcore punk at heart
    I knew it, I knew it!

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    moonbeam


    But that's the trouble, the guy can play... also before the operation. So I guess it doesn't mean you need a big hole in the brain to do it. Sorry, bad joke.

    But whether it means you need a cosmic outlook is debatable. Maybe you do, I wouldn't know.

    But I've always gone on about this, that we want to play like XYZ but we don't have their brain. I think that's the rub.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I think of guitar as an additive process. The more angles you approach it from, the more fluent you become.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    That's good !

  15. #14

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    I know next to nothing about Pat Martino, but just reading this thread I get the idea that the finger board navigation methodology he is describing (the organization and connection of fingerings to positions via octave roots/tonics) may be based on this:

    641
    42
    52
    53
    631

    These represent positional "areas of interest" upon which to manifest various fingerings.
    These are not positions or fingerings per se, but conceptual guides.
    These are schematic octaves of where the roots/tonics appear.

    "641" means the positional area where the roots/tonics are played with the sixth, fourth, and first string - for example with Bb dorian... find the place where the Bb notes are played with the sixth string (6th fret), fourth string (8th fret), and first string (6th fret)... that is what "641" means, it's the "form" for where this happens. Shift down and find where those same 6 and 1 string places are still used but that now you are "underneath" them and the third remaining Bb root/tonic is now on the third string (third fret)... that one is "631".

    Playing Bb dorian in another positional area requires a change in fingering; the schematic octave roots/tonics indicate where the Bb notes would be located to be played in the new position - suggesting/reminding one of a fingering for that scale in order to facilitate the connecting and shifting reorganization... just based on the root/tonic octaves.

    You still have to know your scales and chords, but the schematic octaves help develop an instant grasp of where you are and where you will be when planning and changing positions, fingerings, scales, or chords in spite of constant fast shifts and overlapping positional areas on the finger board; the mechanical simplicity of the schematic octaves supports a vast potential conceptual complexity.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Thanks @Fwlineberry. When I first got “Linear Expressions” I couldn’t hear his lines and got frustrated. “The Nature of Guitar” lost me after the second moonbeam interview.

    When I listen to Martino demonstrate or actually play, I hear the lines, but when I played them, they just didn't sound right. I couldn't hear the chords. It just sounded like going up and down the scale and adding chromatics in weird places. I find the same thing to be true of the few demonstrations of his lines that can be found on youtube. Then I got to watching him play and noticed he has a particular way of almost bouncing on certain notes and swinging his hand from his index to his ring/pinky and back to his index. On a whim, I tried emulating this while playing one of his lines and almost immediately could hear the chords pop out underneath the line.

    I think his technique is a result of him accenting certain notes in his phrases and emulating the technique allowed for a sort of reverse engineering on my part.


    But you are right. The actual instruction is quite basic, and makes a lot of sense. There is a lot of Barry Harris in the harmonic teaching (really!). I knew if I gave him a chance there would be substance wrapped in a spacesuit; and I’ve been finding that substance.
    I already gravitate to minor and minor fingerings, having first learned minor pentatonic and later, Dorian by adding notes to the minor pentatonic shapes I knew. So his minor conversion ideas made perfect sense for what I'm trying to do on the guitar. I think his symmetrical ideas make more sense if you don't insist that it has to be applied to a ii V I to be something worth looking at.


    I suspect his fingerings could be distilled to something straight forward too. Unlike in “Linear Expressions” his current version doesn’t seem to be CAGED. Or at least is is a variant.

    He's using the same 5 positions/forms/areas in the "Stairways & Chromaticism Demonstration" section that were laid out in "Linear Expressions". I refer to fingerings that use shifts to avoid finger stretches as CAGED fingerings. That may upset some adherents to that fingering system, but Martino's fingerings follow that convention.

    The only thing added is Pat demonstrating how the root in each position lies under the index and pinky.


    It is interesting because Pat is one of the best at creating these perpetual motion lines. He has amazing fluidity up and down the fretboard. I suspect the nugget is small, but I’m looking for that piece he seems to use to help him move up and down the fingerboard.

    It is amazing how he goes and goes but doesn't sound like he's just running up and down scales. Especially when you add the fact that he's doing these substitution conversions in his head for every chord he plays over.


    I guess his “floors” are areas of the neck where there is a root under his index on the base four strings and a related root under his pinky on the treble strings. When he moves to work from a different root he uses chromatics to a new area. I’ll give that a try.

    I think it's a combination of that and his ability to see all chords and keys under his hand regardless of where he's at on the fingerboard. One of the consistent things he pushes in all the teaching material I've seen is working through every key chromatically, ascending in minor thirds, descending in major seconds, etc. in one area of the fingerboard. Then you work the same thing in the remaining four areas.


    I think of guitar as an additive process. The more angles you approach it from, the more fluent you become.
    I sure hope you're right, otherwise I'm probably doomed.

    I see a lot of players who gravitate to one or two things, stick to that and just hammer it home every time they play and do pretty well with it. That makes me wonder, at times, if I should have done the same rather than spreading myself too thin in too many areas.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I know next to nothing about Pat Martino, but just reading this thread I get the idea that the finger board navigation methodology he is describing (the organization and connection of fingerings to positions via octave roots/tonics) may be based on this:

    641
    42
    52
    53
    631

    These represent positional "areas of interest" upon which to manifest various fingerings.
    These are not positions or fingerings per se, but conceptual guides.
    These are schematic octaves of where the roots/tonics appear.

    [snip]

    I'd say that's a pretty accurate take on what he's demonstrating. He just leaves out the 1 on your first and last areas.

    .

  18. #17

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    A lot of the fingerings start to make sense if you use a similar setup, heavy strings and hefty action. Then you start to have to move the hand, use more of a three finger approach, etc. (Although I believe the hand motion has more to do with groove/personal preference on Martino's side).

  19. #18

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    With apologies for not addressing the OP's specific question; for me, the easiest way to impart a Martino vibe to any line is simply to follow a short minor phrase or cell containing a major7th, directly with a minor phrase or cell containing the minor seventh, or vice versa. To me this is the quintessential Pat M signature sound; the seamless, relentless volleying to and fro between the major and minor 7th over a minor chord. It's certainly not his only characteristic trait but it's pretty easy to work into your own playing by focusing a little on just this one simple device.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    as I said in #2, unless there's someone here who has signed up to the course AND actually understands it correctly (not just thinks they do)

    I take this to mean that in your opinion there is nobody save for Pat himself or somebody Pat personally endorses to interpret his teachings who are qualified to comment on this topic.


    Unfortunately it looks as though the horse's mouth in this instance speaks a foreign language

    Apparently that disqualifies Pat, himself, from commenting on this topic as well.

    .

  21. #20

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    Martino is such an idiosyncratic player, and the way he developed his playing was so unique, made up by him, not unlike many genius players of all styles. I do agree that many of his concepts are basic, even redundant up to a point (learning chords by using the diminished or augmented form like he did..), but the level he reaches with these concepts! And when he demonstrates taking all these out, starting to play these lines over chords derived from the diminished and augmented scales he builds upon, and superimposing his minor thing on top of them, it all becomes a spectacular case of constructing something complicated from really simple elements, a thing so common in Bebop thinking. The way he talks, I think it is his general viewpoint. He is one of the greats ever, there really is no need for anything not real at that level.

    I think his concept is a great way to introduce someone to playing jazz lines. Intellectually simple (always think of relative minor chord forms) at least up to a point, and stylistically and musically great. Great flow and musicianship, great sound. I enjoy his early period the most, his albums El Hombre and We'll be Together Again being my favorites. Saw him live only a few years ago, he played for hours, and the level of playing, the energy, (and for someone at his age) were impressive!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry
    I take this to mean that in your opinion there is nobody save for Pat himself or somebody Pat personally endorses to interpret his teachings who are qualified to comment on this topic.
    Sorry, my post was a bit abrasive and I've removed it.

    I think there is a point, though, that a teacher says something in an obscure way and everybody tries to figure out what he's talking about. That leads to multiple differences of interpretation till, quite honestly, no one knows what anybody's saying any more.

    Apparently that disqualifies Pat, himself, from commenting on this topic as well.
    Well, no, that's...!

    I actually don't know what the answer is. I do think, as I already said, that it's unlikely to be a magical unlocking of strange mystical secrets that no one knew about before. But maybe I'm just cynical.

    The answer's usually something pretty simple or a complication of something simple. Usually.

    Put it this way, if I thought I could go on a Pat Martino course and emerge playing genius jazz, I'd do it. But I don't, really. But I shouldn't try to speak for others because you never know; they might get something from it that I couldn't.

  23. #22

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    There seem to be three prevalent ideas.

    One is that altering one note in diminished chords yields dom7 chords - i.e. Eo = Eb7, F#7, A7, C7.

    The other is that altering one note in augmented chords yields both major and relative minor chords - i.e. E+ = E/G#m, C/Am, Ab/Fm.

    The third is about playing ii over V - i.e. Dm7 over G7. But I think we knew that, it's not something new.

    As regards the dim/aug thing, it's theoretically quite right but I'm not sure what the practical application is. We all know a 7b9 is tantamount to a diminished chord but the augmented thing eludes me. Playing aug scales/notes over major chords isn't something I do a lot. Playing them over minor chords is valid, though, as it creates a harmonic/melodic sound. That I do use.

    Spending aeons finding all the different combinations to me is just a theory-game. I'd rather get on with playing music. If a tune calls for a M7#5 I can find it, it's not something difficult.

    All subject to correction, naturally; I could well be missing something. All responses welcome.

  24. #23

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    For me the augmented scale mostly means whole tone playing, but I've worked a bit with the diminished. Say you have a G7 dominant chord resolving to a Cmaj7 tonic. Martino would play lines over a D-7 shape. But by thinking diminished scale over the G7, you arrive to 3 more dominant chords to serve as a dominant motion resolving to the tonic chord. These would be Bb7, Db7 and E7 (these chords are contained in the G half-whole diminished scale). So over the original G7 - Cmaj7 progression (or even as more outside playing over a single Cmaj7 chord), we now superimpose E7 - Cmaj7 (B Dorian lines), or Db7 - Cmaj7 (Ab Dorian lines), or Bb7 - Cmaj7 (F Dorian lines).

    Substitute melodic minor for Dorian and you have different colors to work with. Or one can play more modern and just combine triads or arpeggios of the four dominant chords.

    Martino demonstrates all that towards the end of his second videotape lesson. I wish he'd spent more time on his clinics talking about that and not about chord building. The way he does it is incredible!

    Wes does a lot of that too, but not so much of it is based on minor shapes, and you don't hear so much of outside playing either. There are a lot of traditional bebop vehicles aka working with chords and chord movements in Martino's approach.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Martino demonstrates all that towards the end of his second videotape lesson. I wish he'd spent more time on his clinics talking about that and not about chord building. The way he does it is incredible!
    Which video? Would like to check this out.
    thanks!

  26. #25

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    I believe it was his earlier vhs "creative force" series video lessons, the second one, or the last one. You can find it on YouTube