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Originally Posted by Alter
Knowing one can sub in m3rds isn't new - i.e. G7, Bb7, E7, Db7. It can be explained in other ways too. Bb7 is the backdoor, E7 is borrowed from the relative Am and gives a 13b9 effect, Db7 is the tritone.
Similarly, D, F and Ab melodic minors are all recognised subs over G7. B melodic I'm definitely not sure about and that may be one of those cases where the theory breaks down.
Whole-tone scales simply repeat themselves up the neck, of course.
The way he does it is incredible!
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01-04-2019 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DS71Originally Posted by Alter
Is this the section you're referring to?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
That's about the size of it with one correction. Pat details how he plays minor fingerboard shapes over everything, not just ii over V. So really ii over ii, ii over V and iii or vi over I.
To be fair, though, I never get the impression that Pat is coming off like he thinks he has the secrets of the universe figured out. It's just that people won't except "I play minor fingerings and make it work over everything" as an answer. They keep asking him how he does it.
Several books, magazine articles, instructional videos, and internet discussions later, and it still really comes down to those three areas. Only the third area really holds any clue for the person trying to play like Pat, but that gets obscured by focus on the other two areas and trying to figure out what Pat is getting at.
Originally Posted by ragman1
Pat waxes on in his True Fire course about approaching the guitar with a child's curiosity. Having gone through his miraculous recovery from his brain aneurysm, I don't doubt that he's speaking with some experience. His medical condition may be what inspires his fascination with geometric patterns philosophically and symmetry on the guitar fingerboard.
One way of looking at this stuff is that it's just a way of arriving at the basic chord forms. Telling somebody to drop a note a half step in an augmented chord to get a major chord isn't really any different than telling somebody to drop a note a half step in a major chord to get a minor chord. They're just different forms of organization.
I've never spent a lot of time messing around with augmented chords, so one thing I picked up from Pat demonstrating the connections between augmented triads and major/minor triads is that I can voice lead through Caug to get from Cmaj to Fmin, Amin or Dbmin. That's something I can use compositionally.
Originally Posted by ragman1
That's why I think only the third idea as you laid them out above is valuable for somebody who just wants to draw some influence from Pat and play over standard chord progressions.
Originally Posted by ragman1
The thing that I picked up from Pat harping on the minor third diminished sequence that I've never seen mentioned anywhere else is the graduating level of "outside" tension when looking at melodic minor over a dominant chord:
Pat's D minor over G7 = MM up a 5th = 1 9 3 #11 5 13 b7
Pat's F minor over G7 = MM down a whole step = 1 b9 3 11 5 13 b7
Pat's Ab minor over G7 = MM up a half step = 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7
Pat's B minor over G7 = MM up a major 3rd = b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
This may have more relevance to playing over non-functional or modal dominant chords than functional dominant chords.
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Pat uses the diminished 7th chord and augmented triad as his starting point to organize the neck because they are symmetrical., They invert automatically as you move them up the neck, with no need to adjust your fingering. He compares this to the white keys of the piano, where the C major scale just 'happens' automatically. It's more about finding a consistent way to invert major/minor triads and dominant 7th chord voicings than a 'play augmented over major' strategy. Whether it's grounding or cumbersome to approach the neck this way is a matter of individual taste....
PKLast edited by paulkogut; 01-04-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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Is this the section you're referring to?
Well, that's just it. That's the genius playing of Pat Martino. It's not because these ideas are revolutionary.
Personally not many jazz guitarists move me the way Martino does, and i 've always felt each player has some elements in their playing that are their strongest points, and the ones more beneficial/interesting to study. I feel Martino's are the flow and quality of the lines, the technique, the sound. My ideal playing would mix these up with other stuff (and Martino himself used to do that more before the aneurysm).
.. To me he 's just like Paco de Lucia .. So iconic i don't even need to hear them play, just look at them standing there with a guitar makes me smile, feel good and want to play..
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Pat Martino is a player I want to not like. Too busy. To un-Melodic. Ear fatiguing outside playing. But I can’t. Somehow every time I’m ready to switch him off he plays something so sweet and so right I can’t help but be dragged back in.
As I said in the OP, if you sort through his pretentious talk his concepts are not that strange. After all, Barry Harris also talks of the chromatic universe, whole tone parents, and diminished siblings. Even Robert Conti, the most blue collar anti-intellectual educator out there talks about playing the minor 5 of 5 for dominants and a minor third above for altered dominants.
It’s HOW he plays those notes that I think makes Pat unique. When he does these scalar runs. When he skips, holds, swings, and blisters. When it’s chromatic. That’s why I was focusing on the two tiny segments on TrueFire where he talks about how he fingers and how he builds his lines.
I can’t include those segments here for obvious copyright reasons. I wish I could. But i would love a deeper dive on that aspect of his playing.
That said, I’ve enjoyed the discussion on his note choices over the changes. I’ve been reading every post and getting a lot out of them.
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Originally Posted by FwLineberry
It's just that people won't except "I play minor fingerings and make it work over everything" as an answer.
the person trying to play like Pat
His medical condition may be what inspires his fascination with geometric patterns philosophically and symmetry on the guitar fingerboard.
Pat's B minor over G7 = MM up a major 3rd = b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 7
B melodic minor (over G7) is:
R - b9 - 3 - b5/#11 - 5 - 6/13 - 7 (really M7)
The #9 isn't there and the 7 (M7) is an anachronism. A lot of players use it in the blues because it kind of melds in but it's a risky note... the other notes seem good enough.
This may have more relevance to playing over non-functional or modal dominant chords than functional dominant chords.
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Originally Posted by FwLineberry
They always tend to want to say convert to Dorian, but reading through Linear Expressions that seemed incomplete. To me, like you pointed out he converts to minor. Generalizing.
Page 51 in Linear expressions....
Under example II he converts CMaj6, Cma7 and Emin7 to a relative minor family.
And C7(Gm) and Cmin7b5(Ebm6) back to a secondary minor(dorian).
Bringing II V IV and vii into one related grouping. Say Dorian.
And vi I and iii into another into another group, natural minor.
This is kind of how I do it, good or bad.
But I think of it as a Dominant family and Tonic family.Last edited by DS71; 01-04-2019 at 10:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
It depends on how you interpret the mandala he provides with all the lines connecting various points on the circle of 5ths.
Originally Posted by ragman1
B melodic minor is B C# D E F# G# A#
Over G7 there's no root being played. A# would be the #9.
As to the M7, the same objection has been raised about playing minor pentatonic ascending in half steps from the ii on a ii V I (minor pentatonic from the b6 of V) but players still do it.
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Originally Posted by rlrhett
The problem is he never really "gets into" how he constructs those lines. The only thing a person has to work with is dissecting the examples he plays. That's my approach. I'm working my way methodically through the stuff I have access to from oldest to newest. I've got a hundred other things I'm working on at the same time, though, so it's taking a while to progress through the stuff.
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Originally Posted by FwLineberry
B melodic minor is B C# D E F# G# A#
Over G7 there's no root being played. A# would be the #9.
As to the M7, the same objection has been raised about playing minor pentatonic ascending in half steps from the ii on a ii V I (minor pentatonic from the b6 of V) but players still do it.
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Actually, you can make almost anything work over the V.
A lot of these things work because they slip neatly up or down into the major, like Ebm - Em, Bbm - Am, F#m - G, Fm - Em, Abm - Am, Cm - Bm, etc (over G7 - CM7).
It's a bit cheap, though
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His medical condition may be what inspires his fascination with geometric patterns philosophically and symmetry on the guitar fingerboard.
Fascinating person who developed a very individualistic approach.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
That was just an attempt at humor on my part. The "mandala" looks like the circle of 5ths that somebody took their Spirograph set to. It was displayed some years ago in this thread:
Pat Martino Nature of the Guitar
There's a more elaborate version include with the material from his Creative Force video.
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Originally Posted by bako
I didn't mean that as a slight in any way. His fascination with geometry and architecture is part of the appeal for me. I have always visualized music in a geometric fashion.
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Originally Posted by bako
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Originally Posted by FwLineberry
There's a more elaborate version include with the material from his Creative Force video.
I have always visualized music in a geometric fashion.
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The only way I can see to play a bit like Pat Martino is to work on some examples of his playing. I’ve worked on a couple of the patterns in Linear Expressions and the Just Friends solo in the Steve Khan transcriptions book, just those 2 examples have given me a lot of mileage.
Of course a lot of it is in the way he plays those lines, i.e. heavy strings, amazingly accurate time and powerful forward momentum. Not easy to replicate.
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I'm a big fan of investigating how diminished and augmented relate to jazz harmonies and discovering ways of using them to support those harmonies. Whether one conceives diminished and augmented as "parental" (primary or fundamental) thus generating dominant chords and major/minor chords as it looks like Pat does, or whether one attributes the parental role to dominant and major/minor chords from which diminished and augmented emerge, or whether one sees all of them as already fundamentally "there" with numerous relationships among them is really a matter of one's personal perspective, growing from one's history of development and the order of which these things were grasp.
I don't have a system for these things as one playing exclusively by ear, but when I examine what I play I find what could be described. After reading this thread I'm moved to do that a little to encourage discussion and maybe help, so here is a peek using my clumsy way of describing it in the language I don't use when playing... using some of my explorations of Wave this evening as an example.
D69 - D major
A#dimb6 - from the 6th G WHdim
Am7 (A7sus4 better) - from the 6th F# WHdim
D9 (G# 9b5 or Daug/C better) - continuing F# WHdim (so played through the A to D chord harmony change). This is the kind of thing I like to find - the WHdim starts during the A# chord, slip down a half step with the A# to A chord shift, then stays and holds through the A to D(or G#) chord shift
G69 - G major
C13 - Lydian Dominant or E WHdim
F# 13/E - from the 9th G#aug or from the 6th D# WHdim (what is happening here and with the next three chord shifts provides a wide expanse of complex possibilities from what is really a very simple scheme)
Baug/A - from the 9th Gaug or from the 6th D WHdim
E13/D - from the 9th F#aug or from the 6th C# WHdim
Aaug/G - from the 9th Faug or from the 6th C WHdim
(Hope I got all of that right)
Things I notice here:
- dominant harmonies that I hear supported by both augmented and diminished lines
- one -> four change series that I hear supported by chromatic descension of either augmented or diminished lines
Things I have noticed generally:
- I never use the whole tone scale; closest I get is the five contiguous notes of Lydian Dominant separated by whole tones
- I found Lydian Dominant before Melodic Minor or Altered, so backwards from convention I hear those as "modes" of Lydian Dominant
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have you seen my videos on the subject? I have a lot of pat martino lessons on my youtube site as well as discussions on inside / outside playing. A lot of it is based on copying (and studying with) martino.
There's a reason why Eric Alexander is such a...
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