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  1. #1

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    Hello all,

    I’m a young guy in jazz school. Recently I decided to switch to benson technique. I had some questions:

    - how does this look?
    - I find the attack of the pic on upstrokes to be very very weak. How do I alleiavite this.
    - I used a fender medium. It sounds very scrapey and the pic is getting damaged fast from use. Should I be using heavier pics?

    Thanks all,
    spinozist
    Attached Images Attached Images Benson picking help-94bbb48e-7e35-41c4-9c36-71675b0f5f85-jpg 

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  3. #2

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    I'm not a Benson picker but I wasn't aware that he rested his third finger on the pick guard like you're doing. Might want to double-check that.

    And yes, use a heavy pick for heavy strings like yours. Heck I even use one when playing little slinkys but its not as necessary in that application.

    If you're using 12-53 or heavier strings, I think you'll much prefer a heavier pick. I like PRS and Benedettos more than Fender, although I think they're pretty close to being the same thing.

  4. #3

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    That looks pretty much like the way I do it, but I'm not an expert or doctrinaire abut it. I use 1.5 mm Andrea picks, and maybe have an angle closer to 90 degrees

  5. #4

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    You're about 75% if the way there. The plane of the pick needs to be nearly vertical, if you really want to copy the way Benson does it. Try a Google Image search for George Benson and look at how he holds the pick between the tip of his thumb and the flat of his index finger; there are some clear pictures and videos that show how this.

    Most people who think they "Benson pick" really don't. George picks the string about like an underhand softball pitch. His whole hand is below the pick with his fingers parallel to the strings, the side of his little finger brushing the fingerrest. I've always thought that it looks awkward, but it works for him. Same can be said for Pat Metheny's picking technique.

    I read in an interview with him that this technique initially developed from practicing in a cramped bus seat while on long tours as a sideman, early in his career.

  6. #5

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    Here are a couple of videos and several stills showing the man himself. What I'm seeing is, while he's always holding the pick in the opposite way from standard it appears that he's adjusting to the moment and it's not always "locked" like some people have described it, nor is his pick always vertical to the strings. If someone has a clearer shot of that supposedly locked, vertical-to-the-strings pick angle I'd like to see it.



    George Benson The Art Of Jazz Guitar chunk 6 - video dailymotion

    Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/cf/16/00cf165b9c88110c0618736c86b1cbc5.jpg

    https://goo.gl/images/kU8C2b

    https://goo.gl/images/1Ujgmo

    https://goo.gl/images/F5Lf5V

    https://goo.gl/images/W5nqgD

    https://goo.gl/images/qNfxxv

    https://goo.gl/images/fVt1Vv



  7. #6

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    Again this subject!
    But, since you are beginning with it here we go.
    First of all you are concentrating just on picking hand. That is first and biggest mistake. Benson plays the way he plays because he connected both hands. This extremely important. Secondly, use the medium pick like you are because thicker pick does not allow for special techniques Benson use. He rests his hand on all three fingers but this is not so much important because we all have different hands. Your position in a picture is ok. Also, use slight down pick slant, always rest stroke (a must). Going down use wrist motion and going up elbow motion.
    As I said Benson secret is in both hands. So for the left hand for the beginning use even notes per strings to feel the approach.
    I would highly recommend to contact Peter Farrell via Facebook since he can make play this way in couple of weeks. Just watch his free videos and you'll see what I'm talking about. Peter is a long time Benson student and they together are opening Benson institute.

    Hope this helps.

    Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk

  8. #7

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    One more thing regarding Peter's teaching. Very quickly you don't think about the picking anymore and you can concentrate on lines and phrasing.

    Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    You're about 75% if the way there. The plane of the pick needs to be nearly vertical, if you really want to copy the way Benson does it. Try a Google Image search for George Benson and look at how he holds the pick between the tip of his thumb and the flat of his index finger; there are some clear pictures and videos that show how this.

    Most people who think they "Benson pick" really don't. George picks the string about like an underhand softball pitch. His whole hand is below the pick with his fingers parallel to the strings, the side of his little finger brushing the fingerrest. I've always thought that it looks awkward, but it works for him. Same can be said for Pat Metheny's picking technique.

    I read in an interview with him that this technique initially developed from practicing in a cramped bus seat while on long tours as a sideman, early in his career.
    I've watched various instructional videos on this style, and looked closely at Benson's hands, and it's still a mystery to me. I cannot get my hand/wrist/arm into that position without it being uncomfortable and tense. The idea that this position has less tension and allows for easier, freer motion than "regular" picking position (as most of its proponents say) is completely at odds with my experiments/experience. I can't help think that this must have something to do with one's specific anatomy and/or joint flexibility, because the "Benson" approach feels very unnatural to me (and probably a lot of other people).

    John

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I've watched various instructional videos on this style, and looked closely at Benson's hands, and it's still a mystery to me. I cannot get my hand/wrist/arm into that position without it being uncomfortable and tense. The idea that this position has less tension and allows for easier, freer motion than "regular" picking position (as most of its proponents say) is completely at odds with my experiments/experience. I can't help think that this must have something to do with one's specific anatomy and/or joint flexibility, because the "Benson" approach feels very unnatural to me (and probably a lot of other people).

    John
    I have done the same, struggling to learn the Benson picking, but when I joined Peter Farrells Facebook group it all made sense to me. Its not all about his picking hand, but as Miko says, the left hand as well. Both hands have to be «connected» or synchronized. I realize I focused way to much on trying to force the right hand into a position which seemed similar to Benson.

    The angle of the pick is not supposed to be 90 degrees (12 oclock) towards the strings, but more like one o’clock or something in that ballpark. Benson/Farrell uses a combination of sweep picking and reststrokes or alternate picking downwards and always alternate picking upwards. When sweeping down they use wrist movement, and when alternate picking up they use elbow movement.

    The key is to always use an upstroke when going from a higher string to a lower, and to make this happen you have to make sure to pick even notes all the time. Sometimes this happens automatically, other times you have to do a hammer on, pull off, slide, chromatics, etc to «make it even» and synced with the picking hand.

    But dont take my word for it, check out Peter Farrells group. Yes it is expensive, but if you want to learn from a pro that really know the Benson method Peter is the guy.

  11. #10

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    My feeling on this is that there's no need to be dogmatic about it. I tried "benson picking" by which I mean holding the pick at an angle to the strings, somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees, and bringing the heel of the picking hand to the top of the guitar, so all the movement is in the wrist/fingers rather than the arm. All the muscle tension between thumb and index fingertip. After some persistence, it worked well for me. It worked well for me with thick picks. But I can't see any reason to use exactly the same motion/position for all styles of music, or that it requires one set of picks. But I'm not out to play exactly like Benson, just play like me with a more fluidity and range

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by PB+J
    My feeling on this is that there's no need to be dogmatic about it. I tried "benson picking" by which I mean holding the pick at an angle to the strings, somewhere between 45 and 90 degrees, and bringing the heel of the picking hand to the top of the guitar, so all the movement is in the wrist/fingers rather than the arm. All the muscle tension between thumb and index fingertip. After some persistence, it worked well for me. It worked well for me with thick picks. But I can't see any reason to use exactly the same motion/position for all styles of music, or that it requires one set of picks. But I'm not out to play exactly like Benson, just play like me with a more fluidity and range
    Your description of Benson picking sounds different than the way I understand it to work, but nonetheless I agree with your assessments that there's no need for dogma. There's a great booklet called On Practicing by Ricardo Iznaola, a noted classical player, and he had some other book recommendations at the end. One was by a violinist named Ivan Galamian, who I'd never heard of, but it turns out he was one of the most revered violin teachers in the 20th century. In addition to teaching at Julliard and the Curtis Institute in Philly he started a summer music school for string players in 1944 called the Meadowmount School of Music, where supposedly a number of the next generations' top violinists studied.

    Anyway, the point about that entire intro is that I read one of Galamian's teaching books last night on Scribd and he came out from the beginning warning teachers not to be dogmatic about technical specifics regarding how to hold the bow, etc., because each student has a slightly different physical makeup and there's a lot of latitude for how to do something "correctly." As applied to guitar there are obviously a lot of people getting great results from vastly different technical approaches to holding a pick, using pick and fingers, or using no pick at all. I'm currently working on my own variant of "Benson picking," but I quickly realized I'll be using it as an adjunct to what I do currently and not a full-bore replacement.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bambus123
    I have done the same, struggling to learn the Benson picking, but when I joined Peter Farrells Facebook group it all made sense to me. Its not all about his picking hand, but as Miko says, the left hand as well. Both hands have to be «connected» or synchronized. I realize I focused way to much on trying to force the right hand into a position which seemed similar to Benson.

    The angle of the pick is not supposed to be 90 degrees (12 oclock) towards the strings, but more like one o’clock or something in that ballpark. Benson/Farrell uses a combination of sweep picking and reststrokes or alternate picking downwards and always alternate picking upwards. When sweeping down they use wrist movement, and when alternate picking up they use elbow movement.

    The key is to always use an upstroke when going from a higher string to a lower, and to make this happen you have to make sure to pick even notes all the time. Sometimes this happens automatically, other times you have to do a hammer on, pull off, slide, chromatics, etc to «make it even» and synced with the picking hand.

    But dont take my word for it, check out Peter Farrells group. Yes it is expensive, but if you want to learn from a pro that really know the Benson method Peter is the guy.
    I'm just talking about the right hand position, which many people tout as offering more relaxed, freer motion of the wrist. That aspect of it is not my experience; to the contrary it's actually extremely uncomfortable for me. I can, however pick from the wrist quite freely, and sweep in either direction with my regular non-Benson pick grip, so I don't see what problem the Benson grip actually solves. The rest of Farrell's system may indeed be valuable, but I don't have the time or mental bandwidth to re-build my chops (which are almost serviceable) from the ground up. Too much other stuff to learn, too little time.

    John

    Edited to clarify : "I can, however pick from the wrist quite freely, and sweep in either direction" + "with my regular non-Benson pick grip, so I don't see what problem the Benson grip actually solves" to
    Last edited by John A.; 01-08-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  14. #13

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    It's uncomfortable (even painful) in the meaty part of the hand just below the thumb. It seems there are muscles being used or stretched in a different way from extending the thumb. That's what keeps me from working on this technique. Anyone else notice this?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d
    It's uncomfortable (even painful) in the meaty part of the hand just below the thumb. It seems there are muscles being used or stretched in a different way from extending the thumb. That's what keeps me from working on this technique. Anyone else notice this?
    Yes, I have experienced the same, especially when trying to force the pick into a sharper angle against the strings than I felt was natural for my hand/fingers. It felt like constant tension in the thumb muscles when playing, which made it painful.

    It got much better when I adjusted the angle of the picking hand, forearm and guitar. I thought my hand was supposed to rest below the strings, palm facing upwards in an awkward angle. Now I keep it more relaxed somewhere across the strings using my pinky to anchor against the pick guard. Also when I adjusted the angle of the pick against the strings to a less sharp angle the tension and pain disappeared.

  16. #15

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    Why would anyone want to force themselves into an unnatural/uncomfortable position? Think for yourself. Experiment for yourself. Find what works for YOU. Who cares what Benson does? You're never going to sound like him, anyway.

    Using physical exercise as an example. Lots of "experts" recommend keeping feet pointed straight ahead when executing a bodyweight deep squat. For me, that foot position hurts my knees. I have to turn my feet out. Works great for me. Same concept. Don't do what hurts.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by gnatola
    Why would anyone want to force themselves into an unnatural/uncomfortable position? Think for yourself. Experiment for yourself. Find what works for YOU. Who cares what Benson does? You're never going to sound like him, anyway.

    Using physical exercise as an example. Lots of "experts" recommend keeping feet pointed straight ahead when executing a bodyweight deep squat. For me, that foot position hurts my knees. I have to turn my feet out. Works great for me. Same concept. Don't do what hurts.
    How would you know if you didnt try it first?
    I can speak for my self, the reason I wanted to learn the Benson picking or method is that I like his kind of music and hoped I maybe could learn something or get faster by trying learn his technique, not dreaming of sounding like him. Nobody does.

    Then I started searcing the internet and A LOT of (mis)information on how to play like Benson emerged. Text, pictures and videos of guys who claimed they had figured it out showing how to hold the pick, how to use the wrist, how to keep the hand/palm facing towards you etc. And everybody focused more or less only on Bensons right hand and mostly on the angle of the pick.

    I got pain in my thumb trying to hold the pick 90 degrees perpendicular to the strings (as I thought was correct based on the general information from the internet) And I didnt play any faster by doing it like this.

    But now I know better thanks to correct information from Peter Farrell who actually has been playing with Benson for over 15 years. And maybe that is my point here, there are so many meanings and much information about everything on the internet (also about the correct squat technique) that it is hard to know who to belive.

    In my search of correct information about the Benson method I choose to believe the guy who seems to know Bensons technique best.

    And btw: My playing speed and understanding of Bensons method of has improved vastly over a couple of months following Farrell

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I've watched various instructional videos on this style, and looked closely at Benson's hands, and it's still a mystery to me. I cannot get my hand/wrist/arm into that position without it being uncomfortable and tense. The idea that this position has less tension and allows for easier, freer motion than "regular" picking position (as most of its proponents say) is completely at odds with my experiments/experience. I can't help think that this must have something to do with one's specific anatomy and/or joint flexibility, because the "Benson" approach feels very unnatural to me (and probably a lot of other people).

    John
    -The good news is you don't need to use his picking technique to get his time feel .






    Some people don't feel swing the way GB does.

    And obviously to really nail it you have to be able to insert chromatic fragments into your patterns and you need to be able to alt. pick very well to do that.

    There is no other way.

    All Players who pick fast and evenly always have Alt Picking at the core of their technique regardless of how they cross strings.

    Including GB.
    Again -here is GB -playing just with his thumb with just soulful,beautiful melodic stuff - and he still has the 'Benson time feel ' -no pick- .



    More importantly he may be the most expressive, soulful Jazz Guitarist ever..

    OR - the most fluid, overqualified ( in the best ways ) R&B Guitarist ever...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-09-2019 at 09:09 PM.