thoughts on adopting Benson picking

[Cunamara]

I've never been able to join this particular religion. I do notice that a lot of people who think they're doing Benson picking... aren't.

A lot of great guitarists, jazz and otherwise, use idiosyncratic technique. Most techniques have strengths and weaknesses- Johnny Smith, Chuck Wayne, Metheny, Wes, Albert King, Eddie Van Halen, Ed Bickert, Charlie Christian, Bucky Pizzarelli, Eubanks, just to name a few. I lean towards the Church of Ed B, it just makes sense to me, but I also use some Garcia "scalpel" technique too.

Everyone's nervous system is unique; forcing yourself to pick exactly like someone else is probably not a good plan and could even lead to injury, but experimenting with different techniques to see what works for you can be helpful. Maybe just don't get attached to introjecting someone else's highly personal approach.

[MarkRhodes]

A lot of great guitarists, jazz and otherwise, use idiosyncratic technique.

This is the reason Frank Vignola gives for not offering (much) advice on picking. He has worked with many great players over the years "and they all pick differently."

There are basic exercises that help develop technique. If you can play them correctly with good tone and gradually build up the tempo, then your picking is fine (for you.) However, if you never can get to where you can play, say, a two-octave chromatic scale evenly at a brisk clip, then something is wrong (for you). It may be the way you hold the pick. It may be the way you place your arm on the guitar. It may be shaky rhythm, it may be anxiety, it may be any number of things.

It might make more sense for those who would improve their picking to choose a few--very few---picking exercises and say, "I'm going to get all of these up to 8th notes at 120 bpm. Then 144. Then 160. Then 180. Then 200." It may take days, it may take weeks, it may take months. But if you can do that, then your picking is okay (for you) and you can focus on other things that might cause problems. (Difficulties with offbeat lines above a medium tempo, or muting, or fingering...)

Of course, I went about it all wrong and have lost many hours to trying to play things fast that I couldn't play without error at a medium tempo. Yes, it was dumb. I can be very dumb.

One of the things that helped me most was something Frank Vignola stresses: playing all downstrokes. When you can play things clean and even with all downstrokes, adding upstrokes should present no problems. (If it does, you know just what the problem is!) All downstrokes are great for tone too, esp on melodies with lots of quarter and half notes. More definition. And you always know where the beat is.

It's all in the fundamentals!

[rpguitar]

There is a sh*t ton of talk about picking on this forum, but the fingering hand is barely mentioned. And certainly nobody obsesses over left hand technique they way they do about picking, with the epic threads and such.

I'm not a speed demon, but I think I pick just fine at this point. It's my other hand that holds me back from executing all the phrases and ideas that I hear in my head. Sometimes I revert to using a left hand pattern that can keep up with my picking hand, rather than being able to seamlessly synchronize them.

So, there's that challenge also.

[Jazzstdnt]

I agree that universal standards are a good measuring stick, up to a point. But in jazz and casual styles there really isn't one. One can always start with scales and arpeggios with bpm targets though.

And from there? Some basic jazz vocab patterns, chord outlines, and heads/melodies - again with bpm targets.

From there, you can listen to your favorite player(s) and if sufficiently motivated, aim to do what they do. Then you find out - can I reach that or not, and if not, why not?

As for me, I love Benson but will not change to his right hand. I see plenty of world class players use the "lightly anchored palm on the bridge while keeping the three inactive fingers in a relaxed fist" approach, and they get world class results. Of note - they are not trying to sound like GB.

[guitarbuddy]

One of the things that helped me most was something Frank Vignola stresses: playing all downstrokes. When you can play things clean and even with all downstrokes, adding upstrokes should present no problems. (If it does, you know just what the problem is!) All downstrokes are great for tone too, esp on melodies with lots of quarter and half notes. More definition. And you always know where the beat is.

It's all in the fundamentals!

Funny you should mention these things. I was at a clinic Corey Christiansen was doing last summer and he said the opposite; that practicing upstrokes will improve your technique because most people have much less control over them than down. As proof he had us all pick a note (literally) of our choice using only downstrokes at our maximum clean speed. Then he had us do the same with all upstrokes, and I was amazed at how much slower and weaker mine were, and I'm a pretty good picker. The quest continues.

[Jazzstdnt]

Funny you should mention these things. I was at a clinic Corey Christiansen was doing last summer and he said the opposite; that practicing upstrokes will improve your technique because most people have much less control over them than down. As proof he had us all pick a note (literally) of our choice using only downstrokes at our maximum clean speed. Then he had us do the same with all upstrokes, and I was amazed at how much slower and weaker mine were, and I'm a pretty good picker. The quest continues.

That is an enlightening test. What to do? I know!:

practice all down!
practice all up!
practice down/up!!

Can't hurt.

[Hep To The Jive]

That is an enlightening test. What to do? I know!:

practice all down!
practice all up!
practice down/up!!

Can't hurt.

Down/up/sideways- we live in three dimensional world.

[Hep To The Jive]

Notice that GB only ever plays with clean tone. I guess his RH technique followers mostly too? That explains why no concern with RH muting.

[pcsanwald]

I switched to "benson" style picking many years ago. The reasons I switched were that I wasn't happy with my rhythmic feel. I've picked this way for a long time and have pretty good technique and a good feel now. I think it's mostly a personal choice and have no idea if the problems I was attempting to solve would have been solved anyways through study and work.

Having thought a lot about picking, my thoughts are:

- there are worse ways to learn to pick than starting with by playing with your thumb.
- when you switch to pick from your thumb, you'll probably play more downstrokes. downstrokes sound pretty good, you do not get extra points for playing equal amounts of up and downstrokes.
- any kind of tension in the arm or hand in picking is your enemy.
- there's a lot of players that sound pretty good with a mix of legato and picking. there's really very, very few guitarists that sound good picking every note. don't fixate too much on picking every note.
- as pat metheny pointed out in his now infamous lesson tape, a lot of guitarists don't have an awesome jazz time feel, so it's worth paying attention to other instruments as well as players that have an exceptional time feel. If george didn't play the way he did, no one would care how he picks.
- focus on ergonomics that work in service of your music and your body, and don't worry too much about if what you are doing is "correct".

[christianm77]

I like the way two people can look at the same basic truth and come up with totally different solutions.

For a player like Vignola the upstroke will never match the power of the downstroke. This is because he plays A REAL DOWNSTROKE DAMMIT NOT SOME NAMBY PAMBY MODERNIST ELECTRIC GUITAR TICKLING NONSENSE ... sorry ahem - I mean to say he plays down rest strokes. That's old school, designed to project on an acoustic instrument, you play HEAVY and with gravity. In classical terms, trirando.

In these scheme the upstroke is a 'bounce' not something you have to actively 'do' so much. You just bounce off the next string down like it's some sort of jazz trampoline. For this reason string crossing with upstrokes is actually quite hard - hence the rules of Gypsy and Benson picking - start each new note on an downstroke. In this sense upstrokes are not entities in their own right, more an extension of the downstroke mechanic. (Tremolo is different.)

Corey Christiansen is probably (I don't know his playing) coming from the alternate picking thing, this is a free stroke apoyando technique. This can actually be made to sound loud on acoustic instruments (just ask a Bluegrass flatpicker) but usually jazz guitarists using this technique aren't really acoustic players I hope its fair to say. You can probably think of some exceptions I'm sure.

I must try the upstroke only thing, it sounds like hell.

Personally - I do both depending on context? My right hand technique isn't terribly doctrinaire these days - well actually I swap between three completely different right hand picking stances depending on instrument, context etc.

I find both approaches can be accessed with the Benson grip in a way that can't with trad grip, but I've never been happy with the acoustic tone that way. Maybe others can make it work for them. For electric jazz playing, I love it.

[christianm77]

Notice that GB only ever plays with clean tone. I guess his RH technique followers mostly too? That explains why no concern with RH muting.

I got an electric gig on Sunday. Back to trad grip, left hand muting. Can't make crunchy leads work with GB picking.

[MarkRhodes]

Funny you should mention these things. I was at a clinic Corey Christiansen was doing last summer and he said the opposite; that practicing upstrokes will improve your technique because most people have much less control over them than down. As proof he had us all pick a note (literally) of our choice using only downstrokes at our maximum clean speed. Then he had us do the same with all upstrokes, and I was amazed at how much slower and weaker mine were, and I'm a pretty good picker. The quest continues.

I agree that improving one's upstrokes will improve one's technique.

Downstrokes are the default. (If you have but a single note to play---say, a whole note in a melody---you'll likely play it with a downstroke.) If you get that squared away, great. Next!

The weaker upstroke needs work and the thing is, when you're working on THAT, you are working on the upstroke, not the pick grip or anything else. So you know what you are isolating (the upstroke) and you can track your progress.

Playing two-octave scales with upstrokes only can prove a humbling experience! (It certainly was for me.)

[MarkRhodes]

This goes back a few years but it's the best video I could find with good shots of how Corey picks.

By way of contrast, here's Corey's dad Mike, a noted guitar instructor / author.

[guitarbuddy]

I mean to say he plays down rest strokes. That's old school, designed to project on an acoustic instrument, you play HEAVY and with gravity. In classical terms, trirando.

It's spelled "tirando," and it's a free stroke, the opposite of what you're calling it. Though I have many high-level classical guitarists as friends - including some "household names" - I have no classical chops to speak of, but I do have very good Spanish chops. The Spanish verb tirar forms the gerund tirando, which can mean "throwing" or, more applicable to our use, "pulling." The gerund of apoyar, which means "to rest," is apoyando, which we call the "rest stroke," but really means "resting."

With my pedantic Spanish lesson out of the way allow me to comment on Corey and his playing/teaching. IDK if he plays acoustic, but his electric playing is extremely good. Mostly what I think that lesson with the up picking is designed to do is make your alternate picking more even in volume and timing. Here's a vid I found.

[christianm77]

Ah fuck I got them mixed up. That'll serve me right for using the Spanish.

At least I was right about Christiansen.

Alternate picking is a thing - Vignola's downstroke focussed picking is another thing. They both deal with the same basic physics in different ways.

One is to say - 'Downstroke is louder, let's focus on that'. The other is 'lets even out the upstroke and the downstroke'.

In the former the upstroke becomes a necessary evil. In the second example the downstroke has to be reined in slightly to balance the upstroke, however strong.

OTOH that bounce mechanic I mentioned gives the upstroke a lot of energy, but can't be done without a downstroke before it. It's hard to explain. You HAVE to play that way to get it I think. But even this style of picking is a lot less even. Which may not be that much of a problem.

Anyway, there's a lot of present day jazz guitarists who basically can't play without amplification.

One of the advantages - perhaps the ONLY long term advantage of the downstroke centric approach - is that it allows you to project on an acoustic guitar. Nowadays we associate this with Gypsy Jazz, but generations of players grew up doing this in the days before cheap and high quality student electric guitars and amps. Think Joe Pass, Herb Ellis etc.

HOWEVER - as I say Bluegrass players often play acoustic with alternate picking in loud bands with mandolin and banjo etc, so there's clearly some way of making it work, so perhaps it's more a product of jazz guitarists (excepting gypsy guys) never playing acoustically rather than this or that technique.

The apoyando (see, got it) approach has the advantage, as in fingerstyle, of allowing you to bring as much force to bear as you want on the string without fear of playing any other. However a good tirando (:-)) technique can allow that too, presumably, if you are good enough at it.

I believe there are discussions in classical guitar like this, as they do have to play acoustically, most of the time, so its a big deal.

So I'm not really advocating one technique or the other. In fact I drift between the two poles.

[guitarbuddy]

Anyway, there's a lot of present day jazz guitarists who basically can't play without amplification.

That would be me. I have had back/shoulder/neck issues since I was 22, so I can't really play acoustic without enduring some substantial pain the next day. IDK how those guys do it, frankly.

[christianm77]

Another thing - and really just riffing now - which I've been undecided about is how important it is for a pick technique to be even. By which I mean, some lines played with a certain movement in the hands have a certain lilt and swing which is very natural and appealing, and you can kill that if one gets TOO academic in one's approach.

I think evened out 8ths in great big chains is something I hear a lot in jazz guitarists.

Obviously even 8ths is an important foundation, but quite often, it's the only thing I hear from guitar players. I sometimes feel that the natural qualities of the guitar get overlooked, the rakes, slurs and so on. GB is really good at using this, and the natural mechanics of his picking hand to get these features into his playing.

There's an interesting sidebar to this which is that Jon Klopotoskwi mentions in his studies with Warne Marsh that he was very keen to get him to play his solos with all downstrokes as much as possible to even out the line. This is actually less ridiculous than it sounds, even coming from a tenor sax player. So, a really even alt picking technique would have that effect, but those guys were all obsessed with Charlie Christian. Even the horn players.

I mean, I sometimes wonder if it's too fast to purely downstroke it, you should probably be slurring it or sweeping it to make it sound less 'picky' and more horn like....

An example of a modern player who plays this way is Mike Moreno, and I like his phrasing and swing a lot. But it's nothing like GB lol.

[christianm77]

That would be me. I have had back/shoulder/neck issues since I was 22, so I can't really play acoustic without enduring some substantial pain the next day. IDK how those guys do it, frankly.

If you don't mind me asking - what's the problem (if you know) - the size of the instrument, the action, the technique?

[christianm77]

As a counter example to the only 'downstroke technique works on acoustic guitar' argument - Julian Lage appears to playing acoustically in this clip and projects just fine.

But he is ... unusual.

The other guy isn't a GJ picker either, appears to quieter, but could be the angle of the guitar wrt to the camera.

That said the important thing is balancing the rhythm guitar to the lead in this context.... Which is actually not so easy at first!

[MarkRhodes]

As a counter example to the only 'downstroke technique works on acoustic guitar' argument - Julian Lage appears to playing acoustically in this clip and projects just fine.

Yes, he does.
Vignola plays electric guitar often. (Many of his educational videos have him playing an electric guitar.)

Here's an example. He's breaking down a few licks here, so this isn't fast at all, but the camera captures his right hand well and that's---as far as I can tell---the same way he picks when playing an acoustic. And there's a lot of "mostly down" playing.

[christianm77]

Yes, he does.
Vignola plays electric guitar often. (Many of his educational videos have him playing an electric guitar.)

Here's an example. He's breaking down a few licks here, so this isn't fast at all, but the camera captures his right hand well and that's---as far as I can tell---the same way he picks when playing an acoustic. And there's a lot of "mostly down" playing.

Sure, this technique originated on acoustic but can be used on electric.

Some jazz guitarists I think view electric archtops more as an amplified acoustic, others as a particularly big bodied semi acoustic electric. I would imagine Vignola is in the first camp more than the second.

[Jonah]

Another thing - and really just riffing now - which I've been undecided about is how important it is for a pick technique to be even.

may I make a reference to classical here too?

Being even is quite modern conception... as a boy I was always said on classical guitar that I have to be able to make it even in various ways (different picking style, hammer-on/pill-off)... as if technique was more about physical convinience rather than msucial tool.

When I began to play early music and reading old sources I found out that techniques were NOT even musically.
And more - down strokes were called 'good' and upstrokes 'bad'
The modern signs of down stroke and upstroke come from bows and originaly V was for Vulgar and N for Noble... and that semantics was not only accents but it was real meaning used in music, it was the representation of your taste and education during performance.

I always had a firm and quite versatile right hand, good controlable tone both with pick and fingers... but the more I play the more details and nuances I discover in it.

Playing luteas affected my playing on steel strings with a pick too!

I think good sound comes when you rather press the string (at correct pick angle of course) and the sort of LET it go.
If you do it slowly you can actually even BOUNCE on it.. feeling its response... and then let it go.
Of course on steel string you have to pick it anyway (on lutes you almost litterally just realease it.. but also this almost becomes more and more detalized).
When you practice it slowly it look like a set of consequential actions. But of course eventually you have to learn to make it as a sigle touch.
So when it is accomplished it looks like you just pluck the strings.
But imho this where the real control over the tone originates - you feel the string respond to your force implied, you feel its energy and it becomes more and more instimctive.

the same thing concerns fingerstyle.


But with steel stings and especially with electrics the problem can be that these faults can be covered by relatively rude style of music in genral (on acoustic) or amplification (on electric)... and people think they develope the touch without real control over it.. they just sound more or less well and it suits them.

[Jonah]

Of course it is a bit different on an electric guitar or even steel string acoustic but still worth mentioning. At least I feel it on jazz guitar too:

'For lutenists, sound is not a commodity; it is sensitivity. One has to, or better said I have to, continually research and refresh the sense of touch on the instrument, always going deeper and deeper into the sound. I still feel that I am discovering new ways of using the instrument that only come about because of this constant search for the most direct and unencumbered connection between my innermost feelings and the sound that is actually produced by the strings.'

Hopkinson Smith

[christianm77]

Fascinating stuff Jonah. I’m going to mull that over.

I know that I was always being told off by my lute teacher for making my upstrokes (index finger) too strong ... upsetting the natural strong/weak lilt.

Also this lilt is the opposite of jazz lol.

(For those who don’t know lutenists basically alternate pick, thumb/index with the thumb on the beat and the finger on the upbeat. with the hand in benson position.)

[Jonah]

I know that I was always being told off by my lute teacher for making my upstrokes (index finger) too strong ... upsetting the natural strong/weak lilt.

when I play steel string or electic more often than lute (it happens - with me it goes like waves of modds: 4 weeks of crazy about jazz.. then suddenly a few weeks of deep renaissance or French baroque))) (or depends on gigs)- I am not sure that it is good in general - but who knows?)... well.. when I switch back to lute I feel like I lost some sensitivity though I do not change the touch in general... I think it is because of tension..
Also if use my thumb too much on still string it may cause problems with double-tringed basse courses on lute... though I regaim it quickly.

(For those who don’t know lutenists basically alternate pick, thumb/index with the thumb on the beat and the finger on the upbeat. with the hand in benson position.)

Absolutely! Besnson's writ position is like ren. lute player.. but on the other hand check how differently Hopkinson Smith and Nigel North plays= in that same technique... Smith plays almost horizontally and North at much more sharp angle..
Basically 'thumb out' does not mean 'no p-i,p-i...'

But on theorbe an dbaroque lute they do not use that and still - the touching technique is the same! I probably could make a short exmple of what I mean of weekend if it is interesting.. I do not like making vids but this is simple to do... I can show what I do both on lute and guitars... I mean exactly that touch/tone production thing

I know that I was always being told off by my lute teacher for making my upstrokes (index finger) too strong ... upsetting the natural strong/weak lilt.

Actually you should not do strokes at all if it is p-i-p-i technique ... at least in the beginning practice... you just mve your arm up and down from the elbow... (fingers are relaxed but fixed )
it is a little bit different thing than a single touch that is used also on other lutes and on sigle and double courses. The touch is the same but the movement of joints is different.

Another thing that I was first taught by Xavier Diaz - Lattore (who does it perfectly) and then saw with many other playersw and I know it was also fully explained by late Pat O'Brien...
And on this site by the way Rob playes with the same right hand rtechnique...

This is playing bending fingers in from the second joint starting from the tip (not plucking from the first joint as common for beginners) and playing straight relaxed thumb moving it from the basis of the wrist.