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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Ok, I believe it was so, back in 1500-1600, I have no knowledge and am not really interested in history of lute playing. I guess many and more important things were different 500 years ago, why would picking technique be not?

    What I was saying in previous post was meant to let the people know about what I think the real meaning of "up strokes sounding same as down strokes" is.
    Maybe I misunderstood... of course if you speak of a clarity and precision of attack and tone they should be even...

    I answered you because ot was concerning 'eveness' in some sense

    what I spoke about was not historical or specifically about lute, it was illustrated with history but the application of it is absolutely modern - and behind it is the relation between a player and the istrument and what they are based upon and how they work.

    It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
    as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
    Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
    It is an advantage...

    With fingerpicking it is the same when index and middle finger alternate.. it is also sort of 'up and down' (by the why which one is stronger?)

    It is possible to play all down strokes like CC or Wes did.. but then they are just in another workd and they control it inside.

    But using two tools and make them sound identical is strange... and as I said in real music it is actually impossible I believe.

  2. #62
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    I've read through the GB part of the initial article and the whole explanation with pics in a following article. I think your own body and axe make a huge difference.

    I can do the "GB" style with wrist below on my Tele in a high and specific position relative to my body.

    I can't get there with my L5 style Lyle, 17" lower bout, 3-1/2" rims, bridge holding strings an inch and fraction out from the top. There's just too much guitar there to get my arm around and hand in position like that. To even approach forces my right shoulder out unnaturally and I still can't get past even let alone curved back slightly.

    However, there's a pick holding position that's turned the other way. Thumb and side of index holding pick with wrist slightly turned on a flat plane to right, essentially "down".

    This gets the pick attack angle to the strings at the same of the GB angle, just the pick ... 90* different.

    And gets the better tone on plucking allowing for thicker picks.

    Neil

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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I felt like appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
    And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)
    Yes , that's it!

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood...

    It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
    as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
    Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
    It is an advantage...
    Maybe you did not understand me.
    What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
    The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
    If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
    For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    In Classical though, they don't choose either appoyando or tirando, they need to practice and use both. At a start of any Classical method books, that's always in introductionary lesson.

    Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.

    So for us pickers, maybe rest strokes and free strokes need to be covered just the same?
    I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.

    The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.

    Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.

    Again the stand out for me is just how awesome Vignola is at rhythm playing - notice the position of his hand - near the neck, quite different from most GJ rhythm players, but more like a Freddie Green. This creates a texture that's easy for Rosenberg to cut through with his near the bridge picking.

    JR's comping is a lot tougher for him to cut through, I think. Lots of high end stuff flying around.

    Anyway, who in the past 50 years started off as a jazzer?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood... of course if you speak of a clarity and precision of attack and tone they should be even...

    I answered you because ot was concerning 'eveness' in some sense

    what I spoke about was not historical or specifically about lute, it was illustrated with history but the application of it is absolutely modern - and behind it is the relation between a player and the istrument and what they are based upon and how they work.

    It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
    as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
    Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
    It is an advantage...

    With fingerpicking it is the same when index and middle finger alternate.. it is also sort of 'up and down' (by the why which one is stronger?)

    It is possible to play all down strokes like CC or Wes did.. but then they are just in another workd and they control it inside.

    But using two tools and make them sound identical is strange... and as I said in real music it is actually impossible I believe.
    I'm not sure if I know the answer to this - but, in Jazz it's important while not perhaps to play super even all the time, for the upbeat to reach parity with the downbeat in terms of importance.

    So alt pickers see the evening out as a first point to reach. Wes, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes.... as I mentioned...

    OTOH what's quite interesting about Gypsy Picking is that the accents (downstrokes) go out of synch with the beat in interesting ways. In fact the positioning of where the downstrokes go in the line really has to do with rhythmic accent and phrasing, but you naturally get things like the dotted quarter accent if you play three notes a string eighth note lines with this style.

    So that means a certain amount of funkiness and syncopation is in built.

    Lest people think it's only applicable to Gypsy Jazz (which is licky music for sure), GB picking is similar in it's approach and Joe Pass played this way.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?
    I doubt it, I think Jonah nailed it:

    "appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
    And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)"

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.

    The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.

    Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.

    That wore me down, talk about cutting!

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I might be wrong but I think some classical players are at pains to play free stroke only. Is this correct?
    I've heard that, yes.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Again the stand out for me is just how awesome Vignola is at rhythm playing - notice the position of his hand - near the neck, quite different from most GJ rhythm players, but more like a Freddie Green. This creates a texture that's easy for Rosenberg to cut through with his near the bridge picking.

    JR's comping is a lot tougher for him to cut through, I think. Lots of high end stuff flying around.

    Anyway, who in the past 50 years started off as a jazzer?
    Vignola's rhythm playing is stellar. I think it's one reason he gets so many primo gigs. (That and he knows countless tunes.)
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    So alt pickers see the evening out as a first point to reach. Wes, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes.... as I mentioned...
    I've heard Moreno's name for years but had only checked him out casually. Reading this made me curious. Here's a video of him explaining his picking. It's not all downstrokes.

    Mike Moreno - Guitar Lesson 1 (Sound, Technique & Articulation)

  13. #73
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    thoughts on adopting Benson picking

    It’s downstrokes at moderate tempo. When he needs to play fast he’s economy

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    I've heard Moreno's name for years but had only checked him out casually. Reading this made me curious. Here's a video of him explaining his picking. It's not all downstrokes.

    Mike Moreno - Guitar Lesson 1 (Sound, Technique & Articulation)
    Well worth buying that vid btw. Totally rebuilt my playing

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Maybe you did not understand me.
    What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
    The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
    If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
    For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.
    I disagree actually...
    though this strict technical approach is quite common I admit. Especialy in modern music where technic is more about mechanics...
    And often used in styles irregular rythmic accents... I myself to be honest when I play jazz do not control it thoroughly.
    Besides there are techniques like sweep that are supposedly stricltly technical.
    In modern methods and styles picking style often is discussed only from point of speed and convinience... as if as you say the tone and force should be always equal.

    Another point - in electric guitar different phrasing tools like legatos for example are much more noticeable than the difference between up and down strokes - so mayybe people just do not defferetiate it? I do not know...

    I do not mind others do that of course

    I just think we should use some natural qualities of our body as advantages... not trying to overcome them and make them all the same.
    I just do not see what for.

    Besides - in music notes are not even - this is what is important I believe - they are never even.

    Like dancers they do not have they same quality movement or jump starting from both legs usually - and good choreographer knows and uses it.

    But I am not for the argument here of course!

  16. #76
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    es, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes..
    Yeh.. but that puts them into their own world where they can build up ierarchy just all inside \downstrok' world...

    I think also electric guitar is important in that case - some hammer ons do much more effect on accent and phrasing than down or up stroke whicj can be almost unnoticeable on loud amp

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Maybe you did not understand me.
    What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
    The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
    If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
    For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.
    I disagree that is necessarily the goal for technique.

    It is a goal for some guitarists.

  18. #78
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    thoughts on adopting Benson picking

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I doubt it, I think Jonah nailed it:

    "appoyando is sort of default in calssical if you play melody (whichever finger it is) - you do it first thing ususally..
    And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)"
    Again, I might be totally barking up the wrong tree, but I have heard some teachers saying you should be able to play at the same volume tirando as apoyando, which would remove the need for apoyando.

    So you always keep your wrist in a high position where your finger misses the adjacent string on the stroke. When I received lessons in classical technique I was told to keep my wrist very high - so high that I couldn’t actually play apoyando if I wanted to.

    I think this might be a certain school of technique, but maybe not. (It could be just those lessons aiming to stop me from collapsing my wrist and playing from the wrong joints.)

    (This is exactly why, btw, the gypsy jazz upstroke is a free stroke.)

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I disagree actually...
    ... I myself to be honest when I play jazz do not control it thoroughly.
    Besides there are techniques like sweep
    ... as if as you say the tone and force should be always equal.

    I just think we should use some natural qualities of our body as advantages... not trying to overcome them and make them all the same.
    I just do not see what for.

    Besides - in music notes are not even - this is what is important I believe - they are never even. !
    Just have to make it clear, once again.
    My idea was not that, and I've never said, all notes should be even.
    On the contrary. I have said that it is wrong to understand facility of being able to "play up strokes and down strokes evenly" as "all notes should be even".
    It should be understood and discussed as a goal, which is to be able to play a set of notes, no matter how different they are, regardless of picking direction.

    Obviously, some specific techniques, like arpeggio sweeping, as well as techniques where notes are not being picked are not subject of my comments.

    Yes, of course you should use natural qualities as advantage, but you definitely should overcome them, because they can be disadvantage.
    You do not want to come to position where you'll be ... bummer, I'd really to play something here, but I can not, because it does not naturally fall on down stroke ...
    That is the basic premise.

    I do not think anybody is in full control over own playing all of the time. Especially not in Jazz. It is actually quite natural, thus common, to let go to natural predispositions. However, one should be able to regain control in shortest amount of time, without being restricted by picking direction.

    As for the rest of your discussion,m I actually agree.
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  20. #80
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    thoughts on adopting Benson picking

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbuddy View Post
    I had an undiagnosed partially ruptured cervical disc which was pressing on some nerves in my spinal chord. That causes a whole litany of problems involving pain and muscle weakness, and in retrospect even the healthy nerve and muscle tissue was probably having to compensate and getting overused depending on what I was practicing. Eventually the disc ruptured more completely and my right arm went numb and I lost most of my strength and control in that limb, as well as going through some horrible pain. I had surgery to enlarge the aperture in the spine where the nerves go through and I presume they trimmed some of the disc as well. I've never made it back to 100%, but it's a lot better than it was.

    As far as the acoustic guitar, it takes a lot more force to play in terms of making it loud enough, so I just don't play them unless I'm hired to do so. I don't actually own a steel string acoustic.
    Ah mate that sounds horrendous! Sorry about that.

    I still think force is the wrong way to think about it. Gypsy players are very relaxed for instance.

    The downstroke doesn’t require any muscular force. Gravity is on your side and your forearm is heavier than you think. You actually have to release muscles to make the downstroke happen.

    The rest stroke stops this free and natural movement on the next string so you don’t simply strum all 6 strings. At first it feels like your playing is uncontrolled. But that’s where the power comes from.

    Students often find this quite difficult! Not because it’s hard to do, but rather because they are so used to inhibiting and controlling those movements for accuracy in other styles of picking.

    They are so used to making notes happen.

    The muscles engage to prepare the next stroke by lifting the arm. In combination with a slight wrist rotation this gives you the upstroke.

    But there should never be any muscular exertion beyond the bare minimum to make that recovery stroke. You should never feel like you are pushing the notes out.

    That’s why downstrokes can’t balance upstrokes for this technique btw. Because we live on a planet. On the Space Station, I think rotational alternate picking is better.

    I wonder how it affected Chris Hadfield’s strumming?

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    Just have to make it clear, once again.
    My idea was not that, and I've never said, all notes should be even.
    On the contrary. I have said that it is wrong to understand facility of being able to "play up strokes and down strokes evenly" as "all notes should be even".
    It should be understood and discussed as a goal, which is to be able to play a set of notes, no matter how different they are, regardless of picking direction.

    Obviously, some specific techniques, like arpeggio sweeping, as well as techniques where notes are not being picked are not subject of my comments.

    Yes, of course you should use natural qualities as advantage, but you definitely should overcome them, because they can be disadvantage.
    You do not want to come to position where you'll be ... bummer, I'd really to play something here, but I can not, because it does not naturally fall on down stroke ...
    That is the basic premise.

    I do not think anybody is in full control over own playing all of the time. Especially not in Jazz. It is actually quite natural, thus common, to let go to natural predispositions. However, one should be able to regain control in shortest amount of time, without being restricted by picking direction.

    As for the rest of your discussion,m I actually agree.
    Yeh-yeh... I understand this..

    I just do not know - really do not know - where the line is between using our natural qualities and supressing and overcoming it... and which ones...

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yeh-yeh... I understand this..

    I just do not know - really do not know - where the line is between using our natural qualities and supressing and overcoming it... and which ones...
    I think it’s cool to think about.

    Tbh different players draw the line in different places.

    In fact, I make a lot of decisions on left hand fingering based on what is easier and natural to play phrasing wise with my right hand.... I think some players would even see that as a compromise, but for me it’s ‘what gets the job done.’

    I think the limitations and strengths of my picking style are factored into that.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Again, I might be totally barking up the wrong tree, but I have heard some teachers saying you should be able to play at the same volume tirando as apoyando, which would remove the need for apoyando.

    So you always keep your wrist in a high position where your finger misses the adjacent string on the stroke. When I received lessons in classical technique I was told to keep my wrist very high - so high that I couldn’t actually play apoyando if I wanted to.

    I think this might be a certain school of technique, but maybe not. (It could be just those lessons aiming to stop me from collapsing my wrist and playing from the wrong joints.)

    (This is exactly why, btw, the gypsy jazz upstroke is a free stroke.)
    Of course they taught to play both... but in playing melodic lines appoyando was default (like I had to play scales always appoyando...) but when a different charater was needed it was specially said to play 'tirando'

    Also it was taught immidiately in mixed form - when you play melody on top string appoyando with your ring finger and the accompaniment with other fingers tirando...

    But maybe a different school really...

    I have not played real classical guiatr for more than 20 years now... when I play nylons today I use romantic guitar technique.. where appoyando is truely possible only with a thumb

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think it’s cool to think about.

    Tbh different players draw the line in different places.

    In fact, I make a lot of decisions on left hand fingering based on what is easier and natural to play phrasing wise with my right hand.... I think some players would even see that as a compromise, but for me it’s ‘what gets the job done.’

    I think the limitations and strengths of my picking style are factored into that.
    I think it is part of what Hopkinson Smith talked abut in the quote I made about sound productio... getting deeper and deeper into the instrument to know it... you also get to know yourself deeper and deeper.... it changes all the time

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Of course they taught to play both... but in playing melodic lines appoyando was default (like I had to play scales always appoyando...) but when a different charater was needed it was specially said to play 'tirando'

    Also it was taught immidiately in mixed form - when you play melody on top string appoyando with your ring finger and the accompaniment with other fingers tirando...

    But maybe a different school really...

    I have not played real classical guiatr for more than 20 years now... when I play nylons today I use romantic guitar technique.. where appoyando is truely possible only with a thumb
    Which is romantic technique?

  26. #86
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    Which is romantic technique


    It's like baroque lute approximately... usually without nails. It works better on romantic guitar...
    If I have to play modern classical guitar this way I take very good strings and drop it all down half-step then it sounds...

    It's not the only technique for romantic guitar but it became more or less conventional today fro this type of guitar...

    Rob plays this way... I think he actually plays this same way all the instruments he play in his video.


    I think this works fine on uke... I believe biggest part of popularity of Shimambukuro (beyong promotion an dall that exotic thing to play Queen on uke and all) is his rythm and very good touch..
    you can hear it when he plays unplugged...
    (because otherwise there is nothing special in it...)

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