The point is not alternate picking sounding as even as possible. It is probably just a starting point.
It is in being independent of picking direction.
What I can do picking in one direction, I should be able to replicate picking in opposite, without listener hearing the difference.
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12-06-2018, 10:40 AM #51
12-06-2018, 10:52 AM #52What I can do picking in one direction, I should be able to replicate picking in opposite, without listener hearing the difference.
but why? in 1500-1600s they felt that music was organized in rather more natural way for human being... the tone and harmony were associated, the weak and stong points of natural physiology of human body were associated with weak and strong point in music.. natural way to help to express it.
This was treated in a way and actor uses the pros and cons of his ersonal mimics and individuality...
It does not mean one should not practice... but trying to do unnatural things for a human was not a good idea.. too daring.
12-06-2018, 10:55 AM #53
I love this old clip of Frank with Jimmy Rosenberg and a guy (Joe Ascione) using wire brushes on a stack of phone books.
The music is great and the camera allows us to see a great difference between Jimmy's approach to picking and Frank's. They are compatible but not the same.
Frank was very influenced by Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen as a kid, which is most apparent in the slow introductory verse. Frank wasn't a jazzer from the get-go.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
12-06-2018, 11:12 AM #54
Thumb out seems better for late Ren/baroque polyphony, while thumb in seems better for teh Rennaisance alt picking shredz, right?
My teacher was a student of Nigel North and better known as a Baroque guitarist, so he was thumb out, but could also teach and play thumb in. Another guy I had a little contact with, Dai Miller, primarily known as a lutenist also uses thumb in on guitar and sounds great - even Romantic guitar (no nails.)
But on theorbo an dbaroque lute they do not use that and still - the touching technique is the same! I probably could make a short exmple of what I mean of weekend if it is interesting.. I do not like making vids but this is simple to do... I can show what I do both on lute and guitars... I mean exactly that touch/tone production thing
Actually you should not do strokes at all if it is p-i-p-i technique ... at least in the beginning practice... you just mve your arm up and down from the elbow... (fingers are relaxed but fixed )
it is a little bit different thing than a single touch that is used also on other lutes and on sigle and double courses. The touch is the same but the movement of joints is different.
So in that sense - it kind of is Benson picking.... You can also use the famous oscillationary motion referenced by Tuck Andress? :-)
12-06-2018, 11:16 AM #55
Good demo of the technique lol.
Straight up alternate picking...
12-06-2018, 12:21 PM #56
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As far as the acoustic guitar, it takes a lot more force to play in terms of making it loud enough, so I just don't play them unless I'm hired to do so. I don't actually own a steel string acoustic.
12-06-2018, 12:34 PM #57
What I was saying in previous post was meant to let the people know about what I think the real meaning of "up strokes sounding same as down strokes" is.
12-06-2018, 01:57 PM #58
Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.
So for us pickers, maybe rest strokes and free strokes need to be covered just the same?
12-06-2018, 02:03 PM #59Thumb out seems better for late Ren/baroque polyphony, while thumb in seems better for teh Rennaisance alt picking shredz, right?
But thumb out iis more connected with increasing quantity of courses then with music...
(Most of renaissance music (not dances) are much more polyphonic than baroque.)
With 10-13 courses you need to have different hand position to securely play basses - the distance is bigger..
Alessandro Piccinini and 1620s described his technique in details and it shows that he used 'thumb out' and still alternate 'p-i-p-i' in lines... he describes very interestingly how to decide from which finger to strat.. you have to count odd and even tab signes from the last sign of the line - as a result you just always have 'p' on the beat and 'i' on 'and' whatever the value and grouping of the notes are)))
The approach reminded me rythmic Barry Harris method a bit)))
12-06-2018, 02:06 PM #60Even though i have a feeling in Classical tirando is more as a default, and in Flamenco appoyando.
And tirando is like chords, technical arpeggios etc. (as default)
12-06-2018, 02:18 PM #61
I answered you because ot was concerning 'eveness' in some sense
what I spoke about was not historical or specifically about lute, it was illustrated with history but the application of it is absolutely modern - and behind it is the relation between a player and the istrument and what they are based upon and how they work.
It is exactly the point that upstrokes even today should not be and cannot be the same as downstrokes...
as evey note has its position in musical piece realted to meter and rythm - thus picking technique reponds to it...
Even if we play the lins with consisten alternate picking in a good performance the up and down strokes will correspond to the rythmic accents (the opposite is also useful like upstrok of strong note to make a light shift of accent).
It is an advantage...
With fingerpicking it is the same when index and middle finger alternate.. it is also sort of 'up and down' (by the why which one is stronger?)
It is possible to play all down strokes like CC or Wes did.. but then they are just in another workd and they control it inside.
But using two tools and make them sound identical is strange... and as I said in real music it is actually impossible I believe.
12-06-2018, 03:44 PM #62
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I've read through the GB part of the initial article and the whole explanation with pics in a following article. I think your own body and axe make a huge difference.
I can do the "GB" style with wrist below on my Tele in a high and specific position relative to my body.
I can't get there with my L5 style Lyle, 17" lower bout, 3-1/2" rims, bridge holding strings an inch and fraction out from the top. There's just too much guitar there to get my arm around and hand in position like that. To even approach forces my right shoulder out unnaturally and I still can't get past even let alone curved back slightly.
However, there's a pick holding position that's turned the other way. Thumb and side of index holding pick with wrist slightly turned on a flat plane to right, essentially "down".
This gets the pick attack angle to the strings at the same of the GB angle, just the pick ... 90* different.
And gets the better tone on plucking allowing for thicker picks.
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12-06-2018, 04:28 PM #63
12-06-2018, 05:43 PM #64
What I am saying is: All the things you mention should be available on both down and up.
The goal is not to depend on picking direction.
If you can produce certain type of sound using down stroke, you should be able to produce exactly the same sound with an up stroke, and the other way around. It should be under your control how each down/up stroke will sound.
For example, whatever you strictly alternate pick starting on down, you should be able to reproduce starting on up, including all the rest strokes and articulation, without audible difference.
12-06-2018, 07:35 PM #65
12-06-2018, 07:41 PM #66
JR's comping is a lot tougher for him to cut through, I think. Lots of high end stuff flying around.
Anyway, who in the past 50 years started off as a jazzer?
12-06-2018, 07:48 PM #67
So alt pickers see the evening out as a first point to reach. Wes, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes.... as I mentioned...
OTOH what's quite interesting about Gypsy Picking is that the accents (downstrokes) go out of synch with the beat in interesting ways. In fact the positioning of where the downstrokes go in the line really has to do with rhythmic accent and phrasing, but you naturally get things like the dotted quarter accent if you play three notes a string eighth note lines with this style.
So that means a certain amount of funkiness and syncopation is in built.
Lest people think it's only applicable to Gypsy Jazz (which is licky music for sure), GB picking is similar in it's approach and Joe Pass played this way.
12-06-2018, 08:11 PM #68
12-06-2018, 08:18 PM #69
12-06-2018, 08:38 PM #70
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12-06-2018, 09:02 PM #71
12-07-2018, 02:13 AM #72
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12-07-2018, 07:48 AM #73
thoughts on adopting Benson picking
It’s downstrokes at moderate tempo. When he needs to play fast he’s economy
12-07-2018, 07:49 AM #74
12-07-2018, 08:51 AM #75
though this strict technical approach is quite common I admit. Especialy in modern music where technic is more about mechanics...
And often used in styles irregular rythmic accents... I myself to be honest when I play jazz do not control it thoroughly.
Besides there are techniques like sweep that are supposedly stricltly technical.
In modern methods and styles picking style often is discussed only from point of speed and convinience... as if as you say the tone and force should be always equal.
Another point - in electric guitar different phrasing tools like legatos for example are much more noticeable than the difference between up and down strokes - so mayybe people just do not defferetiate it? I do not know...
I do not mind others do that of course
I just think we should use some natural qualities of our body as advantages... not trying to overcome them and make them all the same.
I just do not see what for.
Besides - in music notes are not even - this is what is important I believe - they are never even.
Like dancers they do not have they same quality movement or jump starting from both legs usually - and good choreographer knows and uses it.
But I am not for the argument here of course!
12-07-2018, 08:54 AM #76es, CC and Moreno deal with it by obviously playing only downstrokes..
I think also electric guitar is important in that case - some hammer ons do much more effect on accent and phrasing than down or up stroke whicj can be almost unnoticeable on loud amp
12-07-2018, 09:19 AM #77
12-07-2018, 09:29 AM #78
thoughts on adopting Benson picking
So you always keep your wrist in a high position where your finger misses the adjacent string on the stroke. When I received lessons in classical technique I was told to keep my wrist very high - so high that I couldn’t actually play apoyando if I wanted to.
I think this might be a certain school of technique, but maybe not. (It could be just those lessons aiming to stop me from collapsing my wrist and playing from the wrong joints.)
(This is exactly why, btw, the gypsy jazz upstroke is a free stroke.)
12-07-2018, 09:38 AM #79
My idea was not that, and I've never said, all notes should be even.
On the contrary. I have said that it is wrong to understand facility of being able to "play up strokes and down strokes evenly" as "all notes should be even".
It should be understood and discussed as a goal, which is to be able to play a set of notes, no matter how different they are, regardless of picking direction.
Obviously, some specific techniques, like arpeggio sweeping, as well as techniques where notes are not being picked are not subject of my comments.
Yes, of course you should use natural qualities as advantage, but you definitely should overcome them, because they can be disadvantage.
You do not want to come to position where you'll be ... bummer, I'd really to play something here, but I can not, because it does not naturally fall on down stroke ...
That is the basic premise.
I do not think anybody is in full control over own playing all of the time. Especially not in Jazz. It is actually quite natural, thus common, to let go to natural predispositions. However, one should be able to regain control in shortest amount of time, without being restricted by picking direction.
As for the rest of your discussion,m I actually agree.
12-07-2018, 09:41 AM #80
thoughts on adopting Benson picking
I still think force is the wrong way to think about it. Gypsy players are very relaxed for instance.
The downstroke doesn’t require any muscular force. Gravity is on your side and your forearm is heavier than you think. You actually have to release muscles to make the downstroke happen.
The rest stroke stops this free and natural movement on the next string so you don’t simply strum all 6 strings. At first it feels like your playing is uncontrolled. But that’s where the power comes from.
Students often find this quite difficult! Not because it’s hard to do, but rather because they are so used to inhibiting and controlling those movements for accuracy in other styles of picking.
They are so used to making notes happen.
The muscles engage to prepare the next stroke by lifting the arm. In combination with a slight wrist rotation this gives you the upstroke.
But there should never be any muscular exertion beyond the bare minimum to make that recovery stroke. You should never feel like you are pushing the notes out.
That’s why downstrokes can’t balance upstrokes for this technique btw. Because we live on a planet. On the Space Station, I think rotational alternate picking is better.
I wonder how it affected Chris Hadfield’s strumming?
12-07-2018, 09:50 AM #81
12-07-2018, 10:09 AM #82
Tbh different players draw the line in different places.
In fact, I make a lot of decisions on left hand fingering based on what is easier and natural to play phrasing wise with my right hand.... I think some players would even see that as a compromise, but for me it’s ‘what gets the job done.’
I think the limitations and strengths of my picking style are factored into that.
12-07-2018, 10:11 AM #83
Also it was taught immidiately in mixed form - when you play melody on top string appoyando with your ring finger and the accompaniment with other fingers tirando...
But maybe a different school really...
I have not played real classical guiatr for more than 20 years now... when I play nylons today I use romantic guitar technique.. where appoyando is truely possible only with a thumb
12-07-2018, 10:21 AM #84
12-07-2018, 12:07 PM #85
12-07-2018, 02:00 PM #86Which is romantic technique
It's like baroque lute approximately... usually without nails. It works better on romantic guitar...
If I have to play modern classical guitar this way I take very good strings and drop it all down half-step then it sounds...
It's not the only technique for romantic guitar but it became more or less conventional today fro this type of guitar...
Rob plays this way... I think he actually plays this same way all the instruments he play in his video.
I think this works fine on uke... I believe biggest part of popularity of Shimambukuro (beyong promotion an dall that exotic thing to play Queen on uke and all) is his rythm and very good touch..
you can hear it when he plays unplugged...
(because otherwise there is nothing special in it...)
12-31-2018, 11:41 PM #87
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