The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's interesting! I played some Giuliani pieces and never encountered that. I closely studied Carcassi method and got the impression that using left hand thumb over the neck is kinda taboo. I guess I was wrong!

    Not that I really care, mind you. Classical technique is more important for me in right hand posture. I think they got it right!

    Also, regarding the left hand in jazz, or blues, I know some blues players don't curve their fingers, and basically put their fingertips flat on the strings. I wonder if anyone here is doing it?
    Actually one of the biggest flaws in my own LH technique is that, coming from folk and blues, I do tend to press the strings more on the flat of my finger than on the very tip. It worked fine in acoustic folk and folky-blues, but in jazz, playing electric, the flatter finger often frets the adjacent string, and playing fast, that other string makes a kind of ghost sound that is most unpleasant. You can listen to any of my posts in the Jimmy Raney study groups, especially at the end where we're all getting the tempos up, and I get these periodic "dank/gank/plank" noises-results from the finger fretting the right note and slapping down the adjacent string.

    Worst problem of my technique, and one I"m having a lot of trouble addressing since I've been doing it for over 55 years!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'll link to (now the forum's own lol!) Miles Okazaki's thoughts on left hand technique, in reference to Charlie Christian:

    "There is no known video footage of Charlie Christian, but the consensus among players is that he used a majority of downstrokes with the right hand, and mostly three fingers with the left hand. A well-known quote, again from Kessel, describes some important details:He rested his 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers on the pick-guard. He anchored them there so tensely that it was like there almost wasn’t a break in the joint. He almost never used the 4th finger of his left hand.”
    (Kessel in Guitar Player, Oct ’70)


    This description of the left hand makes sense, given the logical fingerings that can be used to play the solos, and is supported by the few pictures that we have of Christian in the act of playing. In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian. I once had the pleasure of sitting with George Benson in his house and listening to this very solo on the record player, while he pointed out his favorite lines."

    Miles seem to purposefully adopt the same type of left hand for single note stuff.

    For myself, I'm kind of in a slightly crappy halfway world. I think the three fingered, or more accurately put, heavily pronated thumb over technique with lots of shifts is great, and I also think the classical independent stretchy fingers left hand is great.

    As my early tuition was more classical, I still tend to use my pinky - but not particularly well.

    So I've been doing some exercises to address that - particularly left hand ligado stuff. TBH I'm not sure it's made much difference.
    Every lick I've stolen from Charlie (and I've stolen dozens) confirms this, not only can they all be played with three fingers, they fit naturally and are easier to play that way.

    I've found the same thing for a lot of Grant Green.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Every lick I've stolen from Charlie (and I've stolen dozens) confirms this, not only can they all be played with three fingers, they fit naturally and are easier to play that way.

    I've found the same thing for a lot of Grant Green.
    As chance would have it I've been looking into those guys this week. And yes, it makes it super rewarding in a different way to trying to puzzle out a sax or piano player. It's like 'aha! This MUST be the way he played it.' Fun.

  5. #29

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    No there is not a fundamental difference.
    Classic Guitar Technique is more formalized than Jazz Guitar - obviously .

    So there are pictures and over the shoulder POV pics of Segovia etc BUT most of these are concerned with right hand not fret hand.
    AND the Ètudes force the Student to slightly modify the techniques to his own hands.
    The standards for technique are higher , tighter than Jazz or Rock or Pop - those 3 always use anything that works for either hand ...

    The trick is to get it as stable as you can IF you decide to put the thumb on the back of the neck vs. the Benson/Mclaughlin /Clapton etc etc thumb up or above neck thumb.

    The thumb up above neck is very stable but IF you have small hands -not as fluid.

    Problem is IF you are used to thumb up fret hand - switching feels arbitrary and unstable which it is...lol.

    The trick for me was to get the lower ball of my fret hand index finger touching or very very close to the bottom of the neck to get it to be the SAME every time I pick up the Guitar.

    It is stable ...rather than having an arbitrary place to put the thumb ...the balls of the fret hand fingers [ very upper portion of palm ] are close to the bottom of neck and lightly touching.

    If you are already very stable and like your chops...don't even think about this.

    IF you have large hands or long fingers ..you may not need to use the lowered thumb thing.

    A good test is to play 4 frets chromatically across all 6 strings at the A5th fret then G then F position .

    Most of the top Fusion Guitarists used thumb above top of neck [ Mclaughlin,Dimeola, Stuermer and even Benson...don't need to do the lower thumb thing....really depends on the hand size more than anything- and how far you want to take it.

    But actually no it is not to answer your original question again .
    But 'Jazz Guitar Technique' is really whatever works , just like 'Rock Guitar Technique ' there IS no definitive way to use either hand.

    Classical Guitar and Flamenco have been taught for a few hundred years and in Classical Guitar - Segovia and his Students seemed to provide a quantum leap for Classical - people have refined Classical Technique and are less rigid , generally.

    To go far with left hand ( fret hand ) technique - it really depends upon hand and finger size (finger length)- people with larger hands can put their thumb straight up giving a more secure grip or even wrap top of thumb over top of fingerboard .
    But people who have smaller hands AND /OR do extremely wide stretches 6 frets or more generally HAVE to lower the thumb on back of neck not sticking up like a flagpole.

    I like the 'security ' of a high thumb (see McLaughlin, Benson) especially with position shifts on linear playing - but my hands are too small to be very fluid that way .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-24-2018 at 09:59 AM.