The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Been into it about 2 weeks...

    So I suppose I'm fine with my "old" technique...definitely had topped out what it would allow for in speed, but it allowed to do hybrid picking easily, lot of other stuff I'm not throwing away...

    Being that I've found myself playing more acoustic jazz again, I thought I might revisit this technique, for sake of volune and tone production. I can tell already if I keep at it, the speed will come...and I love how relaxed of a right hand I can keep.

    Hybrid picking will be a lot more difficult, as would string skipping...it's probably not great for bop/modern styles...it it is kind of prescriptive, in the sense that it's going to make you play a certain way...so like I said, I won't be throwing away my old way of playing, when playing electric.

    Anyway, anybody else want to share experiences? I'll add videos as I get more confident...

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  3. #2

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    Danny Rabin used to post here a lot.


  4. #3

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    I think the few brief videos he made about it are better than anything else out there as far as clarity and usefulness.

  5. #4

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    My experience I can use it whenever I feel like it, and use other picking whenever I feel like it. So it's a good thing to have in the tool box.

    I like it for certain slower phrasings, but I primarily an alternate picker on the fast runs. I like the machine gun feel of alternate picking.

    I know rest stroke is primarily associated with Gypsy jazz, but it doesn't have to be. The problem with Gypsy jazz teaching for me is very rigid rules. You can't do this, can't do that. Don't put your wrist on the bridge! What?? Go f.. yourself, how am I supposed to mute strings? Oh we don't mute strings etc etc. Sorry I do and I'm not giving that up.

    Anyway, so here's the summary: rest stroke is great, and it does not equal Gypsy picking always.

  6. #5

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    Well, that's precisely what soured me on it the first time around...too many armchair quarterback guitar owners telling me what I "should" do.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    My experience I can use it whenever I feel like it, and use other picking whenever I feel like it. So it's a good thing to have in the tool box.

    I like it for certain slower phrasings, but I primarily an alternate picker on the fast runs. I like the machine gun feel of alternate picking.

    I know rest stroke is primarily associated with Gypsy jazz, but it doesn't have to be. The problem with Gypsy jazz teaching for me is very rigid rules. You can't do this, can't do that. Don't put your wrist on the bridge! What?? Go f.. yourself, how am I supposed to mute strings? Oh we don't mute strings etc etc. Sorry I do and I'm not giving that up.

    Anyway, so here's the summary: rest stroke is great, and it does not equal Gypsy picking always.
    Spot on.

    Joe Pass and Larry Coryell used aspects of "gypsy picking". Both used a floating right hand and always used a downstroke on string changes. I watched Larry Coryell when he was playing on a stage sitting right next to me and I assure you that on his lightning fast runs he was using alternate picking. The close up videos I have seen of Joe Pass and even Gypsy guitarists Bireli Lagrene and Stocheleo Rosenberg indicate that they too, used alternate picking for the fast stuff.

    Rest stroke picking is another valuable tool in the toolbox, nothing more, nothing less.

  8. #7

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    I am confused about articulation with this style. When the down stroke, which is a naturally stronger stroke comes on the downbeat, the upstroke and upbeat sound even weaker than the rest stroke is not utilized. Am I making sense? (I'm kind of writing this between several other tasks.)

    BTW, I've been working on rest strokes for the last few weeks, and have been experimenting with starting on an upstroke. This way I get strong note on the upbeat.

  9. #8

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    Frank Vignola has played with Gypsy players, and done a few albums of Gypsy material, but he insists he never learned that style directly and it's not where he's coming from. That said, he characterizes his own picking as "mostly down". He thinks it sounds better. It does make melodies sing more than does alternate picking.

    I can understand lots of rules IF one is aiming for a specific thing. For example, IF one wants to sound like the guitarists backing Sonny Boy Williamson on Chess sides from the '50s, a small tube amp is the way to go...

  10. #9

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    Yeah, Frank would be a guy who''s style I admire...he's not restricted to one way of doing things...I'd like to hear him play more modern stuff really, I know he could adapt and sound great.

  11. #10

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    Not Gypsy rest stroke but flatpicker Brad Davis has this double down technique that employs two downward rest strokes on two adjacent strings then one upstroke. Says he got it from Eddie Van Halen


    Here he is demonstrating:


  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Been into it about 2 weeks...

    So I suppose I'm fine with my "old" technique...definitely had topped out what it would allow for in speed, but it allowed to do hybrid picking easily, lot of other stuff I'm not throwing away...

    Being that I've found myself playing more acoustic jazz again, I thought I might revisit this technique, for sake of volune and tone production. I can tell already if I keep at it, the speed will come...and I love how relaxed of a right hand I can keep.

    Hybrid picking will be a lot more difficult, as would string skipping...it's probably not great for bop/modern styles...it it is kind of prescriptive, in the sense that it's going to make you play a certain way...so like I said, I won't be throwing away my old way of playing, when playing electric.

    Anyway, anybody else want to share experiences? I'll add videos as I get more confident...
    I don't understand why hybrid picking is difficult, except for considerations of overall volume?

    Keep loose. Use arm weight. Focus on downstrokes and bounce the upstrokes.

    I think in combination with slurring you can play a lot of bop. Most of the early boppers were downward pickslanters and heavy downstroke players. Here I my thoughts on the cross over.



    FWIW, I now have no idea what my right hand is doing most of the time, i've been using a Benson-ish grip a lot when amplified. But when I need to project, I think it reverts to a more pure Gypsy style.

  13. #12

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    Hybrid picking is more difficult because my thumb/hand is in a much different position than in my "old way." In my old way of doing things, hybrid felt almost exactly like fingerpicking.

    I'll certainly not be abandoning my old way of doing things...but as you say, for projecting on acoustic, gypsy picking is far superior. I can also see as I practice, gypsy style will be far better for sustained playing at higher tempos.

  14. #13

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    When I play with a pick (which is pretty rare these days), I usually play with the rest stroke technique. It's a bit easier for my tennis elbow + I like the sound projection. Especially with nylon string guitars that sound is pure bliss for my ears.

    IIRC, I think Christian at least has spoken about this in some previous topic, but in my experience as well this technique seems to flow better if you use the "3 notes per string" method / scales. That keeps the d/u/d movement steady when moving up or down on the neck. I struggle still a bit when doing descending runs, but I also tend to stiffen / tension my arm too much. That eats away the fluidity.

    I'm still undecided about which pick to use. On the other hand I like the attack of a thinner pick (.88mm), but a chunky pick (1,5 or 2mm) gives out a more fuller sound.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Hybrid picking is more difficult because my thumb/hand is in a much different position than in my "old way." In my old way of doing things, hybrid felt almost exactly like fingerpicking.

    I'll certainly not be abandoning my old way of doing things...but as you say, for projecting on acoustic, gypsy picking is far superior. I can also see as I practice, gypsy style will be far better for sustained playing at higher tempos.

    I have the same problem switching from thumb rest strokes (flamenco) to thumb free strokes (calssical) and a much bigger headache trying to get muted thumb (fingerstyle). Each put the fingers in a different position and will feel weird till you've practiced moving between them. So I practice that switch and it's OK for flamenco to classical and back but dead thumb is pretty much impossible to smoothly move in and out of at speed as is the related flamenco approach of playing off of the flesh of the side of the thumb which seems to just kill my classical technique stone dead and which I have mostly given up on.

    Flamenco builds out from the thumb, the thumb in flamenco works EXACTLY THE SAME as other gypsy picking with plectrums (EDIT this is true but only for the ALZAPUA position which means on the point and requires a relaxed bent wrist to engage the string with the nail of the thumb perpendicular to it).

    So first you develop thumb on it's own, then thumb and index only, then bring in m and a. With a pick that would be, the middle finger first and working on things that exploit just that and then bring in the ring and pinkie slowly.

    But why not use the rest stroke for economy picking and power and switch to a free stoke thumb for hybrid playing ? Rotate between the two positions (write a two bar technical study that forces you to and play through it over evert key) as your mood takes you. Babies and bathtubs and all that.

    Hope that makes sense.

    D.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKO
    IIRC, I think Christian at least has spoken about this in some previous topic, but in my experience as well this technique seems to flow better if you use the "3 notes per string" method / scales. That keeps the d/u/d movement steady when moving up or down on the neck. I struggle still a bit when doing descending runs, but I also tend to stiffen / tension my arm too much. That eats away the fluidity.
    Not sure where you got that from, I say exactly the opposite. 3 nps descending is IMO the most difficult combination using rest stroke picking. Many Gypsy Jazz players, including Django, favour 2/4 nps figures descending. You cheat it a bit by using legato (watch my video.)

    For ascending, any combination is equally easy.

    I'm not a 3 nps player in any case.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Not Gypsy rest stroke but flatpicker Brad Davis has this double down technique that employs two downward rest strokes on two adjacent strings then one upstroke. Says he got it from Eddie Van Halen


    Here he is demonstrating:

    I'm surprised that he cites Van Halen as he is the pupil on Jon Jorgensons Gypsy Guitar instructional videos.

    D.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    I'm not a 3 nps player in any case.
    Good, three notes per string= not choosing.

    Nice for tricks and triplety things though.

    Joe Diorio and Steve Kaufman recommend practing triplets in strict time DUD. It's not too hard to get that to 170 on a single string, faster in short bursts.

    Then this (all DUD)

    ggb,ggd,ggb,ggd and then
    gge,gga,gge,gga and other things live that.

    Be creative, put notes to it.

    Then play those exercises in 3/4 in sixteenth notes instead of twelve eight in eighths to get used to the oddness of upstroke shifting with relation to the beat.

    Next thing is to have the pick at 45 degrees to the string at all times and practice some lines. The exercises above should get you used to the double down thing and in particular the 3/4 version.

    Another few 'rules', in general try and place the downbeat with a downstroke at slow/moderate tempos.

    Now the FUN bit, watch this guy and hear the SOUND. It's Stochelo Rosenberg's brother and the above describes their picking choices, there is actually a lot of variety amongst Gypsies but when white dudes tell you you're doing it wrong they are mostly talking about THIS.


  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not sure where you got that from, I say exactly the opposite. 3 nps descending is IMO the most difficult combination using rest stroke picking. Many Gypsy Jazz players, including Django, favour 2/4 nps figures descending. You cheat it a bit by using legato (watch my video.)

    For ascending, any combination is equally easy.

    I'm not a 3 nps player in any case.
    Hmm, I must have remembered wrong then - apologies.

  20. #19

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    I took up gypsy picking about two years ago. Found the first week frustrating but I then realized how much better my tone was... even on electric. Eventually, I was playing faster and cleaner than I ever have. Volume has increased also. I think you can play bop etc with this technique but it will take some practice (break out your Omnibook). I wished I had known about this when I was at music college 30 years ago!

  21. #20

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    It kind of takes practice to play bop with any technique?

    Or have I been doing it wrong?

  22. #21

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    I think it's worth pointing out that Joe Pass, who will feature very high in anyone's pantheon of bebop guitar was basically a GJ style picker (flatter wrist, but then I have too), I would also say Tal Farlow had a similar approach.

    Someone in the comments on my video on this subject argued that Tal was a 2 way economy guy. I don't think so. Jimmy Raney and Chuck Wayne yes, but not Tal. I rarely if ever see Tal upsweep, and that's a tell tale. Also look at the way he pushes through the strings on ascending runs:



    Anyway I told the fella to let me know if he could find several examples of Tal using upward (towards the ceiling) economy picking I'd cede the point and he has yet to get back to me. Better things to do maybe? But it looks like the same technique as Joe to me.

    There's also George Benson, who uses obviously a different stance and arm motion to play, but whose picking schemes are broadly similar (but that's a can of worms), and Wes, whose mechanic while obviously using the thumb rather than a pick, looks to me to be very similar - check around 0:40.



    So, that's not a bad set of precedents. I would describe bop technique as quite eclectic from player to player, but it's certainly true that this style of picking was in the mix at least. Probably as many players started on acoustic, it would be an obvious way of getting more volume in the early days.

    Finally, I have heard that Billy Bauer prescribed downstroke only playing as much as possible which is suggestive (under the influence of Charlie Christian) - this maybe of course why Satriani developed his left hand slurring so much lol. Is there any footage of Bauer?

  23. #22

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    Ha! I am not ruling out the possibility you are doing it wrong (I'm also guilty in that regard) but my point is that if you have been playing bop using alternate picking it will take some time and effort to integrate and adjust to gypsy style.... It its worth the effort to change despite the difficulties (IMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It kind of takes practice to play bop with any technique?

    Or have I been doing it wrong?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo
    Ha! I am not ruling out the possibility you are doing it wrong (I'm also guilty in that regard) but my point is that if you have been playing bop using alternate picking it will take some time and effort to integrate and adjust to gypsy style.... It its worth the effort to change despite the difficulties (IMO)
    Well, perhaps there is a website I can go to and pay money and I can learn bebop with no effort at all :-) Actually that sounds terrible. Where's the fun in that?

    Anyway, it's very true. However, I think in the long term you just end up with a few more basic ways of going about the problem, which can only be a good thing.

    I also think alternate picking is harder to do from scratch than gypsy picking - but YMMV.

    I had a whole "why do people think bebop is about alternate picking?" rant, but redacted it. I think anyone digging into this profoundly non guitaristic music has to come up with their own tricks lol.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-02-2018 at 05:43 PM.

  25. #24

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    my trick is to pay no attention and not be able to play fast. i have an ebook about it

  26. #25

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    IMO, the key benefit is better tone production... notes "sing" more with this technique. If you keep practicing the speed will come but, at the same time, you may not care as much because what you are playing sounds better and you can be more effective with slower, more deliberate statements.

    IMO, there is very little attention paid to developing basic tone/sound in jazz guitar pedagogy (or, let's say the focus is obsessively on gear).* The result is many fast, sophisticated players that do not have a compelling sound. Sometimes the sound is just bad. In contrast, classical players and horn/woodwind players spend ages working on basic tone and have a plethora of exercises that work to that end.

    Of source, I am guilty on all these charges also. About 15 years ago I took up classical guitar (after playing jazz for 20 years). The first lesson, the (excellent) teacher asked me to play a two octave major scale. I played a 2 (even 3 octave!) at high speed with variations in fingering. I am thinking "good job Roberoo"! She stopped me after a while and said "now, play it as music"... Ouch. After that, it was months of work on developing tone right down to tortuous hours spent addressing single notes with appropriate touch, vibrato and intention. At first I thought this work was BS but even my university (non-musician) roommates starting commenting how much better things sound.


    * I own 19 guitars!