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Yeah I definitely agree - few things gets a fat but clear old school archtop jazz sound like rest stroke picking over the neck pickup, and of course the technique near the bridge gets the Django thing (to the point where I think you could play literally any music with a selmer style guitar and that technique and get told you sound like Django.) That's what I advise students who are getting a poor tone, and it always works.
People do all kinds of stuff - roll off the treble on the guitar, buy new guitars and so on. People always ask me if I play a special Tele, but it's just a single coil neck position. Truth is if you use this technique you can get a jazz sound on any guitar. Here I am on a Danelectro, which I think sounds good with the pick towards the end:
It's worth mentioning the tone is wide open, and perhaps a little bright for some, and the strings were lighter than I would have liked, but that's a good base to work from I think, on any guitar. I think it's easy to create an Adam Rogersy jazz guitar sound by rolling off all the high end, but I seem to be drawn to a brighter tone in general. I do think on the 175 (though not the Tele) a bit of roll off is necessary to get a really nice tone - something I am just grudgingly accepting....
One thing I think worth mentioning with this technique is pick angle, and how it is simulated by a bevelled pick (like Wegen) - which is analogous to the fact that classical guitarists don't play with their nails straight on. I used to use very fat picks, but now I'm happy with a 1.5mm (which is what Birelli uses apparently) with a bit of an angle to it, which you can introduce by just cricikng your thumb a little.
More recently I'm using a more Benson style grip because I prefer the sound for electric. I can get away with lighter strings. With Gypsy Picking I always wanted heavier strings and more tension in the guitar, but that can be a problem sometimes (unless the guitar has a great set up) - and I articulate more now from the left hand than I did.
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09-03-2018 03:20 PM
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Where's all the rest strokes ?
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Not all manouche players play rest stroke... that is a myth... but, from my own experience, your tone will benefit from this approach. There are many early jazz guitarists that used this technique but, when the focus turned to playing fast bop lines, the down-stroke approach went by the way-side.
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That was my point.
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That’s not entirely correct. True perhaps in the broadest strokes.
Originally Posted by Roberoo
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This is classic rest stroke picking. Look at the angle of the pick and the downward swiping motion of the right hand. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
You can’t necessarily SEE the rest strokes. For instance Yngwie is a rest stroke picker according to Troy Grady....
If you don’t play this way probably seems like fairy stories.
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My position on whether or not to teach this style of picking to students has shifted a little since the ancient past when this thread started.
TBH in so much as I teach pick technique at all I tend to teach students to focus on downstrokes, but I think these days most amplified players (ie almost everyone non gj) uses a combination of alternate, economy and legato.
I think the main strength of rest stroke picking apart from acoustic projection is the acquisition of speed and accuracy in picking. I know many more burning shredding gypsy pickers than alternate pickers, and the latter always seem to be moaning about their chops. It’s just easier to do well.
Not that sheer chops is as important as being a good musician in jazz. No one wants a shred head who doesn’t listen.
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George Benson is a rest stroke player too.
Sent from my SM-C7000 using Tapatalk
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I did say "bop lines"... You can play very, very fast with rest stroke technique but I find it harder to play Parker style lines with rest stroke. You can get it eventually but it feels awkward for a while. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
My main point is you can sound better with this approach when playing deliberate lines. Many (most?) players have a weak upstroke and the sound produced is less satisfying. Of course if you are playing streams of 16th notes the tone produced maybe less important than the musical effect you are seeking.
I am saying this from my own experience playing 20+ years with alternate picking and then deciding to take up rest stroke technique. My students that have adopted this approach sound better also.
It may not be for you. So be it.
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Originally Posted by Roberoo
Personally I think it's MUCH easier if you use idiomatic slurs . Picking every note I think it is much harder.
[QUOTE]
My main point is you can sound better with this approach when playing deliberate lines. Many (most?) players have a weak upstroke and the sound produced is less satisfying. Of course if you are playing streams of 16th notes the tone produced maybe less important than the musical effect you are seeking.
[/QUOTE]
Im not sure if I understand you correctly - but if so you are saying it's easier to use GJ picking with 'pre-baked' lines and licks? That is certainly true.
OTOH - if you get to a tempo and speed of execution where this stuff starts to be really relevant, I don't know who these players are that aren't playing 'pre-baked' material to some extent. Prepared phrases that you can chunk together.
[QUOTE]
I am saying this from my own experience playing 20+ years with alternate picking and then deciding to take up rest stroke technique. My students that have adopted this approach sound better also.[/QUOTE]
Again don't quite follow. Do you mean the students who start using rest strokes sound better?
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I don't get it... why isn't it possible to be both alternate and rest stroke at the same time? The rest stroke means only when you pick down you stopped by the neighbor string, right? So you can still go up down freely, what am I missing?
I do understand the division between Gypsy and alternate, the former being strict start with down pick when crossing strings either direction. That makes sense.
Furthermore, there was a fella posting videos here, talking about half-rest stroke, or something like that, when you're stopped by next string on downstrokes, but bounce right back. I believe that's what most of us are doing anyway, because if you slant pick at angle you can't escape rest stroke anyhow, it's a default.
To me, that's what happening with Birelis video above- it's alternate picking, not Gypsy, but the rest strokes are there too.
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string crossing mechanics Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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That explains what? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Actually rewatching that Birelli clip, I spoke to soon - he uses a mixed approach - he slants down and then changes the slant of the pick. You can see him do it.
Some combinations are classic dwps GJ picking, and some are more alt picky.
Anyway, rest strokes going down tends to cause a downward pickslant which makes pure alternate picking hard to do, hence Birelli changing the angle of the pick when he plays more alternate.
I doubt it was something he worked on consciously, but it's what he appears to be doing.
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