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So my teacher told me to practice position playing. I am a CAGED kinda guy, but I see the positive side by switching to the position playing. I am down.
What I dont quite understand, is how I can play any major scale, being in any of the 12 positions? I was provided this PDF, and I also have the Vol 1 and Vol 2.
Also, I don't know if I am just slow, but I don't quite understand the sheet music for the position playing in book 1? I don't know about any sharps or flat in the C major?
I am really eager to get started, and I feel this is a perfect way of memorising the notes on the fretboard. I greatly appreciate any help.
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07-17-2018 06:33 PM
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Okay, if I am not mistaken, the 7 position approach in the PDF I attached is a improved system from Levitt’s?
if yes, is these stretches correct for these positions? And why is this an improvement on the original system? Why is it better?
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Firstly,
If you are a CAGED player you are already a "position player". Leavitt was primarily referring to playing up beyond the open position, and yes he had his approach to position playing.
You have seven fingerings there and that's fine. The whole "play 12 keys in one position" deal is based on Leavitt's 12 "moveable" fingerings, only 4? of which are revealed in Book 1.
So what? So if you don't follow his rules for stretching over shifting and you are playing in position N, you will have to shift up or down to position N+1 or N-1 (one fret up or down) to cover all 12 keys. No big deal. No reason not to, no matter what anybody tells ya. Millions of guitarists have done/still do this.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-18-2018 at 09:45 AM.
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The accidentals are for chromatic passing tones which Leavitt used in some of his scale exercises. A jazzy/modern kind of thing to do. Bebop scales are 8 note scales so this helps you get used to the idea of playing and hearing lines like that. The Blues scale also includes a passing tone.
Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-18-2018 at 09:47 AM.
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Leavitt preached stretching out of position over shifting to another position. The primary motivation as explained to me was based on sight reading or reading security. He felt it was safer not to shift while reading, and risk flubbing notes. That's logical, but not everyone agrees.
He had his little rules for stretching out of position with the 1rst and 4th fingers. His little rules work fine if you want to use his system.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-18-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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You know what? I think I’ll just take the time, and go through the whole book. Start on page 1, and just do exercises as they come. What’s the members here experience with that? I mean, I know how reading sheet music work, but I am very bad at it. I spend seconds finding out what notes are, and seeing chords take forever.
Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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Leavitt starts his books with FIVE fingerings, 2 of which are EXACTLY the same as CAGED, 2 of which are very SLIGHTLY different, and then 1 which is fundamentally distinct. At a basic level, they kind of line up with the CAGED fingerings.
The 7 fingerings presented in the original post here aren't an "improvement" or even variation of his fingerings. They are simply his original 5 plus an additional two fingerings, which you would find in Leavitt volume 3 where he talks about cycling through different keys in a single position. They can be thought as having been arrived at by basically continuing to cycle the original five fingerings in a single position.
7 gives you 1 fingering per- scale- degree, something which is really useful in understanding of fretboard, but you're not going to find that in volume 1 and 2 of Leavitt's book. they are also going to give you 12 keys in a single position. They give you 12 keys within two positions.
(I'm not a devotee of William Leavitt or anything, but I got a lot out of his books and don't understand talking down his methodology. His "little rules" are probably the best organization of understanding of the fretboard in print , for cycling through keys , for understanding how to organize different fingerings that you may eventually prefer to use etc. At least it's kind of codified. You can apply some of his "evolution of fingerings through the cycle"-type of analysis to caged as well.)
[I personally prefer Reg's 7-fingering organization to either of the above. It seems subtly different on the surface, but what it yields is FOUR 2-octave positions which are almost exactly the same as CAGED (two exactly the same, 2 with only one additional stretch, and one completely different). His second finger reference is much more straightforward than a traditional "root finding" basis.] Reg Diatonic Scale and Arp Fingerings.pdf
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So to really understand this concept, shouldn’t one really go through the books? What kind of time frame are we talking for that? Say one hour per day doing exercises presented in the book? I don’t understand much from reading page 60 in volume 1 or the start of volume 2 right now, so I would imagine I need to take a step back? Like 1 hour every day working at the books, then 1 hour every day working with a jazz standard? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Here is way to play in all 12 keys with a five fret range using CAGED fingerings. (It's really four frets with a stretch on each side, which is sometimes needed, sometimes not.) I did this every day for awhile.
Does this help with your question?
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Well, I was thinking of switching to the 7 position system, as I was recommended that by two jazz teachers. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Yeah , I'd work the book from the start. As to SCHEDULE, I'd get a good teacher for sure. There are a lot of pieces besides just reading/book work etc. Comping, melody, improv, technique should all be addressed. Originally Posted by znerken
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Are you by any chance Matt Warnock? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Ha! No. Originally Posted by znerken
Maybe briefly when I'm drifting off into slumber...
He is m78w on the forum...
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When I studied Chuck Wayne's system, it was all about covering five frets and the out of position notes were played with the pinkie, by stretching.
Jimmy Bruno teaches it the other way, ie grabbing the out of position notes by stretching the index finger back.
Both great players and both workable systems.
For the OP: you can't play 12 keys in four frets. It takes 5 frets. To play 12 keys, you need all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, and you need 5 frets, not 4 frets. If you think about the way the guitar is tuned, you'll see it.
To hijack the thread for a more advanced topic: It's one thing when you're playing your own lines. But, when you are reading somebody else's lines at a high enough speed, it's different and, sometimes, a lot more complicated. Position shifts, oddball fingerings (like playing a note with the second finger even though it might fall below the third finger -- to make a smooth position shift for the notes which follow), the occasional open string and so on. There are fingerings which are used to avoid difficult picking patterns (especially for players who are not sweep pickers). I think it's one of the more interesting parts of reading -- and I often puzzle for quite some time about alternative ways to execute a challenging passage. Sometimes there is a surprising number of possible fingerings. I'm not a great sweep picker, so I can't be sure, but it looks like an advantage in reading because there's less need to accommodate picking.
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That's fine. If you can play through all 12 keys w/in 5 frets with CAGED fingerings, adding the other two won't be a problem. Originally Posted by znerken
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Originally Posted by znerken
Nothing wrong with that plan.
I think that Volume 1 forms a solid foundation, but would caution against attempting to plow through all 3 volumes in a myopic fashion. After Volume 1 there are lots of options to consider if Jazz Guitar is your goal, so take a checkpoint after Volume 1.
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He said, and it looks like shifts as opposed to stretches. CAGED has no stretches right? Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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No time to read the entire thread.
If this has been mentioned I apologize.
znerken,
If you haven't already, you might want to check out Jimmy Bruno & his 'five shapes.'
I found that it rationalizes things nicely, includes the arps
and allows me to 'shift' rather than stretch, mostly.
All the best...
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Well, if one of the goals is to learn position playing, isn't volume 2 like mandatory? I guess though, that you could practice that on the side? Or do you need to go through both books? Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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No, of course it's not mandatory. Originally Posted by znerken
There are lots and lots of sources out there these days. You can use all three books, use other sources for some of the same material, and skip some material.
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True, but my main goal is learning the position playing approach. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I have actually spent a lot of hours on the vol 1 book these two last days. I feel I am mostly learning sight reading, which is a good thing to learn. I knew a lot of it already, but I am really slow, and I never play music from sheet music, so that’s a good exercise. However, do the exercises get more technique focused as the book advances? I feel there is very little text, to know what you actually practice.
Also, how did the people who have used the books here approach each exercise and know when to move on to next one? I am at the first sea to sea duet now. Learned gtr1, played it once at 60 bpm, while recording. Now I am trying to learn gtr2, which is great for sight reading. When I know that one, I’ll try and play it over my recording. You could spend great great amount on just that duet, analyzing how the melody aligns with the chord tones etc, but I guess that’s not really the point?
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This is one of the most actively discussed and worked-through books on the forum. Check out the following threads: Originally Posted by znerken
Originally Posted by fep
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Let me be clear, I am a big Leavitt fan. But "the" position playing approach? You mean "his" position playing approach? Anyway, all guitarists are position players. By all means take as much learning from Volumes 2 and 3 as you can. Don't worry too much about all of this now, just keep going. Originally Posted by znerken
To answer your question - Leavitt advised not to perfect the assignments before moving on. Play them reasonably well then move forward. However, he also instructed you to engage in constant review. You will begin to have the opportunity for perfection by doing that second part. When you hit a wall, then stay where you are for a bit and iron things out before moving forward again.
(All of that is very traditional, time tested advise, BTW)
There is a lot of useful technique throughout volume 1, for both hands. You can use the right hands ones practically forever.
Don't spend too much time on analysis, but some is useful of course.
Leavitt's method will improve your reading a great deal.
For pacing, try 2-4 pages per week as a guide (more if you can).
Good luck.Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-19-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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Nice advise! Well that depends on hours, doesn’t it? Like today, all I have done is play the pages until the first duet. Then for the last hours, all I have done is that duet. So I can play gtr1 at 60bpm, recorded that. Now I am trying to learn gtr2, which I will play over my recording, when I know it. Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
The only problem I am having now, is seeing what each exercise will do. I guess, for book 1 it’s mostly about sight reading and training both left and right hand? And yes, I mean Levitt’s approach to position playing. I think he uses the same approach as mentioned in the advancing guitarist. The reason why I want to learn position playing, is because I had a lection with a big jazz player, and she told me, throw caged in the trash and learn position playing. I totally see the benefit of that. One of my main goal of learning position playing, and going through the book, is getting to remember every note on the fretboard. What's people experience with that from the book? Did it help you learn the fretboard? I have been trying to do that for a long time, but never had any real success.
What I am thinking is going through vol 1 and 2, in maximum one year. So minimum 1 hour practice every day, from the book, some days a lot more probably. Right now, it feels kinda bad, as I feel like I am starting all over, but I hope I see some huge benefits in a month or two.
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I played through the Leavitt A Modern Method for Guitar Vol. 1 using the CAGED method. I video taped all the exercises here: A Modern Method for Guitar Vol 1 - Thread Index
The CAGED method is position playing and all 12 keys can be played from anywhere on the neck. The CAGED positions should be melded together by grabbing notes from nearby positions, sliding to nearby positions etc. and when you do that you essentially are playing everything that Leavitt presents with his 7 positions.
CAGED does not mean "caged in", it is not to be thought of as regimented, this finger has to play this note is not the way to think at least not when you get fluid with it. The positions are just landmarks on ones journey up and down the neck. I think of it as organizing your papers in files and file cabinets as opposed to having all your papers in one big pile on the floor. In that sense either system is fine in organizing ones learning of the neck.
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