A Modern Method for Guitar - help me understanding position playing

[znerken]

I played through the Leavitt A Modern Method for Guitar Vol. 1 using the CAGED method. I video taped all the exercises here: A Modern Method for Guitar Vol 1 - Thread Index

The CAGED method is position playing and all 12 keys can be played from anywhere on the neck. The CAGED positions should be melded together by grabbing notes from nearby positions, sliding to nearby positions etc. and when you do that you essentially are playing everything that Leavitt presents with his 7 positions.

CAGED does not mean "caged in", it is not to be thought of as regimented, this finger has to play this note is not the way to think at least not when you get fluid with it. The positions are just landmarks on ones journey up and down the neck. I think of it as organizing your papers in files and file cabinets as opposed to having all your papers in one big pile on the floor. In that sense either system is fine in organizing ones learning of the neck.

So looking back at your journey of going through vol1, what did you learn? Was it a good experience? Did you go on to vol2? Also saw in your threads that you spent a lot of time on it every day, how long did it take you to go through vol1?

[fep]

So looking back at your journey of going through vol1, what did you learn? Was it a good experience? Did you go on to vol2? Also saw in your threads that you spent a lot of time on it every day, how long did it take you to go through vol1?

Because of where I was at, the book was easy enough to sight read on my first pass of each exercise. A lot of it was review which is something I enjoy doing. I didn't spend that much time per day on it, I was going at a slow pace so as not to get ahead of the group. As I remember I burned through the last bit of the book pretty fast as at that point there was just two of us as most everyone had dropped out.

The biggest thing I learned was related to picking, rest strokes for chords on inside strings, and how I held my hand and the pick. You can see how much my picking hand changed from the early videos to the videos near the end. I ended up adapting to the same picking technique that is shown on the the DVD. I also improved my sight reading.

I didn't go on to Vol. 2.

[Jazzstdnt]

Nice advise! Well that depends on hours, doesn’t it? Like today, all I have done is play the pages until the first duet. Then for the last hours, all I have done is that duet. So I can play gtr1 at 60bpm, recorded that. Now I am trying to learn gtr2, which I will play over my recording, when I know it.

The only problem I am having now, is seeing what each exercise will do. I guess, for book 1 it’s mostly about sight reading and training both left and right hand? And yes, I mean Levitt’s approach to position playing. I think he uses the same approach as mentioned in the advancing guitarist. The reason why I want to learn position playing, is because I had a lection with a big jazz player, and she told me, throw caged in the trash and learn position playing. I totally see the benefit of that. One of my main goal of learning position playing, and going through the book, is getting to remember every note on the fretboard. What's people experience with that from the book? Did it help you learn the fretboard? I have been trying to do that for a long time, but never had any real success.

What I am thinking is going through vol 1 and 2, in maximum one year. So minimum 1 hour practice every day, from the book, some days a lot more probably. Right now, it feels kinda bad, as I feel like I am starting all over, but I hope I see some huge benefits in a month or two.

I just edited my post #23 to say "When" you hit a wall, and 2-4 pages per week.

YMMV :0

[znerken]

Because of where I was at, the book was easy enough to sight read on my first pass of each exercise. A lot of it was review which is something I enjoy doing. I didn't spend that much time per day on it, I was going at a slow pace so as not to get ahead of the group. As I remember I burned through the last bit of the book pretty fast as at that point there was just two of us as most everyone had dropped out.

The biggest thing I learned was related to picking, rest strokes for chords on inside strings, and how I held my hand and the pick. You can see how much my picking hand changed from the early videos to the videos near the end. I ended up adapting to the same picking technique that is shown on the the DVD. I also improved my sight reading.

I didn't go on to Vol. 2.

So as my main goal is to get to page 60 and start position playing, how long would you estimate that would take with 1-2 hours every day? Not to rush it, or anything.

[Jazzstdnt]

So looking back at your journey of going through vol1, what did you learn? Was it a good experience? Did you go on to vol2? Also saw in your threads that you spent a lot of time on it every day, how long did it take you to go through vol1?

Your question wasn't posed to me but I will offer this. If you move through approximately 4 pages per week it will take you about 30 weeks. But don't beat yourself up if it takes longer.

Be aware that volumes 2-3 are less linear (from a lesson/method book perspective) than volume 1. Fewer original compositions/tunes/solos or whatever you want to call them, and more technique. That's especially true for Volume 3 ("the "kitchen sink" volume).

Clearly, the idea is that you should be playing tunes (Jazz tunes if that'a your chosen specialty) when going through Volumes 2/3. Of note Berklee has published a book of jazz song arrangements to accompany Volume 1, as they recognized the gap. It's optional too of course.

I would advise you to look at the 3 volumes fitting into the "method, technique, etudes" categories of your overall study plan - not repertoire. You should be playing tunes/compositions throughout if possible, but certainly after Volume 1.

There should be no illusions about that.

[fep]

So as my main goal is to get to page 60 and start position playing, how long would you estimate that would take with 1-2 hours every day? Not to rush it, or anything.

This is really dependant on the person so it's so hard to say.

If it was me, my goal wouldn't be to get to page 60 in a certain amount of time. My goal would to work on the book at least one hour a day six days a week (perhaps two 1/2 hour concentrated sessions a day). It's not a race, just keep it consistent.

[znerken]

Your question wasn't posed to me but I will offer this. If you move through approximately 4 pages per week it will take you about 30 weeks. But don't beat yourself up if it takes longer.

Be aware that volumes 2-3 are less linear (from a lesson/method book perspective) than volume 1. Fewer original compositions/tunes/solos or whatever you want to call them, and more technique. That's especially true for Volume 3 ("the "kitchen sink" volume).

Clearly, the idea is that you should be playing tunes (Jazz tunes if that'a your chosen specialty) when going through Volumes 2/3. Of note Berklee has published a book of jazz song arrangements to accompany Volume 1, as they recognized the gap. It's optional too of course.

I would advise you to look at the 3 volumes fitting into the "method, technique, etudes" categories of your overall study plan - not repertoire. You should be playing tunes/compositions throughout if possible, but certainly after Volume 1.

There should be no illusions about that.

Yes, one answer based upon your answer, would be then to go through vol1 in a static manner as you suggested, then when I get to vol2, use it primarily to learn the position playing stuff. How big part of vol2 are about position playing? And after reading vol1, I guess I can be able to like practice position playing for 1 hour every day? That's a more realistic goal, I think. To finish vol1, then use vol2 when/where needed. I mean we are doing this to play music, so it would make sense to start focusing on that after vol1.

Also, one of my main goals for this, is to learn every note on the fretboard. That's important for me. I realise vol1 won't do that 100%, but it will probably take me far. Then when I learn position playing, after that, I will probably seal the deal?

[Jazzstdnt]

Yes, one answer based upon your answer, would be then to go through vol1 in a static manner as you suggested, then when I get to vol2, use it primarily to learn the position playing stuff. How big part of vol2 are about position playing? And after reading vol1, I guess I can be able to like practice position playing for 1 hour every day? That's a more realistic goal, I think. To finish vol1, then use vol2 when/where needed. I mean we are doing this to play music, so it would make sense to start focusing on that after vol1.

Also, one of my main goals for this, is to learn every note on the fretboard. That's important for me. I realise vol1 won't do that 100%, but it will probably take me far. Then when I learn position playing, after that, I will probably seal the deal?

How are you defining "position playing"?

[znerken]

How are you defining "position playing"?

Each fret is a position. First finger defines which position. The the 3 remaining are designated to one fret each. You should be able to play all scales in that one position, with those 5 frets.

[Jazzstdnt]

OK, well not to confuse things, but your teacher said forget CAGED. The thing is, some people see CAGED as a "method", but its really just five scale fingering patterns.

So, using your CAGED fingering patterns you should be able to play (not necessarily read, but play) 12 major scales from one "fretboard area" (not position, because you'll shift one fret up or down) now. You needn't wait to go through any book. Play around the circle of 5ths.

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G

[Reg]

Yea anything works... Start off by realizing the guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern. There are 6 strings... but if your fingering organization doesn't work with the basic design of the instrument... your going to hit walls etc...

The other starting point is to realize how your hand work etc...

The check it see how well your system works.... are you staring at the neck when playing. If your a solo guitarist or really don't need to be aware of what else is going on.... again any system will work.


Now here is how the process ends.... the neck becomes one big fingering, a large 12 fret repeating fingering. Weather you use caged or any other chord shape organization, or any 7 position system which generally are organized with scales .... again the bottom line... where all the BS ends.... the neck becomes one big fingering.

make a choice and finish the process.... I choose 7 fingering system.... but I can cover any fingering and I use them to help create the feel and articulations of specific Styles.

I don't need to watch the neck to see what I'm doing....I can effortlessly move around the fretboard and have been able to do so all my life because the system I use is a complete system based on the instrument... the guitar etc.

The references to chords or scales... is part of the beginning process.... Generally there are differences between Guitar technique... your skills on the instrument... and Performance skill, your skills for playing music.

You don't want your performance to be controlled by your technical skills.... unless you choose to do so.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok, Reg. So, I'm down with 4 inversions of arps, the way you describe, and I've also been working more on connecting chords using extended diatonic "positions".

Now I'm wondering about how you approached developing vocabulary in- position. So for developing D7-type vanilla vocabulary in G major, is your main physical reference for that D7 (mixo) in 9th position, with F#-7b5 (locrian) in 12th and B-7 (phrygian) in 6th?

Or...

Are you doing something more with 4 arp inversions?

The way things seem to look for me lately is that the arpeggios inversions are more about connecting things to sixth-string-reference positions than for developing vocabulary in THAT specific arp position necessarily, relative to chord of the moment.

So, for my chord/arpeggio reference at the fifth fret for D7, my VOCABULARY reference has really become more about that extended B-7 -for-D7 in 6th position. Looking at your videos, I would almost think THIS is more of the way you're thinking. Actually irons out a lot of things TECHNICALLY. Much less to work on and think about in wholly separate terms etc. largely similar vocabulary with subtly different tonal gravity or implications for resolutions etc.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts always.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[RolandLeeGuitar]

Here's my main points from the 1st reply... that you expressed that you didn't have a grip on key signatures yet and that you were still learning notes along the entire fingerboard so I suggested taking your time using book 1 because it will familiarize you with the act of reading which is the main purpose of Bks 1-3. The 1st half of Bk 1 is all in 1st position. Be sure to do the duets because it will let you know if you are playing in time.
The next half of the book is in 2nd position...more of the same but you will start seeing the significance of fingering and key signatures.
The Berklee books aren't for everyone and can seem quite boring and pedantic. It all depends what you want to accomplish and what you expect to gain in terms of skill sets. I would not suggest using the Berklee Books unless you are needing to develop your reading skills and can commit to consistent practice all the while focusing on the rudiments. The duets are very important.
I've taught many kids with Berklee 1 only because 'they didn't know any better'... and could handle the weekly discipline. They always looked forward to the duets because I'd find ways to rewrite them in a way that they could relate. Maybe not all of them went on to master the fingerboard but they all knew how to play from reading music and I'm proud of that.
It sounds like you've given some thought to this process of learning. It's very important to learn your rudiments and how it relates to the guitar fingerboard as soon as possible. Good luck and stick with it.

[znerken]

Here's my main points from the 1st reply... that you expressed that you didn't have a grip on key signatures yet and that you were still learning notes along the entire fingerboard so I suggested taking your time using book 1 because it will familiarize you with the act of reading which is the main purpose of Bks 1-3. The 1st half of Bk 1 is all in 1st position. Be sure to do the duets because it will let you know if you are playing in time.
The next half of the book is in 2nd position...more of the same but you will start seeing the significance of fingering and key signatures.
The Berklee books aren't for everyone and can seem quite boring and pedantic. It all depends what you want to accomplish and what you expect to gain in terms of skill sets. I would not suggest using the Berklee Books unless you are needing to develop your reading skills and can commit to consistent practice all the while focusing on the rudiments. The duets are very important.
I've taught many kids with Berklee 1 only because 'they didn't know any better'... and could handle the weekly discipline. They always looked forward to the duets because I'd find ways to rewrite them in a way that they could relate. Maybe not all of them went on to master the fingerboard but they all knew how to play from reading music and I'm proud of that.
It sounds like you've given some thought to this process of learning. It's very important to learn your rudiments and how it relates to the guitar fingerboard as soon as possible. Good luck and stick with it.

Hey!

Well, since I started this thread, I’ve practiced on the book one hour every day, minimum. Some much more. I also practice the C major scale, at 2nd position, for like 1-2 hour, as that’s the task my teacher gave me. I record my self as well. I played the Sea duet at 60bpm, and recorded both parts. I hope there’s more to learn than the skill of reading sheet music? Don’t misunderstand me, I love thought of becoming better in reading music. Living by the skill of only reading tab, isn’t a good thought for me. I would like to be able to communicate with other musicians.

And yes, if the book makes me better at learning the fretboard, that’s a huge win.


What’s the experience of a good time frame for each book? I have no hurry.

[matt.guitarteacher]

What’s the reason he laid them out in book 3? Cause they were unclear in the other books?

It's a need-to-know thing. You don't need to work on playing 12 fingerings if you can't yet play with 5. I mean, there are minor keys, basic chords etc which are more of a priority first?


He considers every- key- in- single- position to be more endgame stuff.
Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[gggomez]

My personal experience was the book improved my picking accuracy and reading but would not spend too much time on it. I spent many many hours but I don’t think it really helps or does not give you big time leverage on playing music.

I really regret the time I invested in that book.

As many say here learn songs by ear that has been the absolute ripper for me.

Want to improve your picking technique and timing learn When will the blues leave. What to learn to pluck beautifully learn My Funny Valentine etc.

Then you can go play with other people, the next super food.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

My personal experience was the book improved my picking accuracy and reading but would not spend too much time on it. I spent many many hours but I don’t think it really helps or does not give you big time leverage on playing music.

I really regret the time I invested in that book.

As many say here learn songs by ear that has been the absolute ripper for me.

Want to improve your picking technique and timing learn When will the blues leave. What to learn to pluck beautifully learn My Funny Valentine etc.

Then you can go play with other people, the next super food.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I learned to read before I knew about Leavitt's books. I just looked over Vol III. It looks to me that there's a lot of useful info in there. If you work thru the book you'll clearly know the fretboard, scales arps and so forth. And, his fingerings are interesting. They don't feel natural to me, but I'm guessing that they may feel very natural to somebody who learns this way, and that might be a great thing.

But, it is noteworthy that there is very little syncopation in Vol 3. This is certainly not a criticism. I'm sure he didn't intend this to be the only three books anybody ever used.

In a way, it looks to me like Leavitt's Vol 3 is not just about reading, but also about preparing the player to improvise using the tools in the book. That could be a great thing.

But, if you're in a jazz band and somebody puts a chart on your music stand, you're likely to be reading syncopation. And, to me, it would be more fun to learn with it because it might sound more like jazz.

After Complete Rhythms by Colin and Bower, you might look at Lenny Niehaus books, but I'm sure that others will have suggestions. I don't know which books Berklee uses for syncopation, but I'm curious about it, if anybody knows.

[znerken]

Can someone help me clarify one little thing. I feel few of the lessons yet, have contained any information on what you actually practice. Is this because the start of vol1 is mostly about learning to sight read, and learning the fretboard at the open position? I am at exercise 7 now. Is this the same for most of vol1, and then in vol2 there are more lessons on other things, or is it just the start of vol1?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Can someone help me clarify one little thing. I feel few of the lessons yet, have contained any information on what you actually practice. Is this because the start of vol1 is mostly about learning to sight read, and learning the fretboard at the open position? I am at exercise 7 now. Is this the same for most of vol1, and then in vol2 there are more lessons on other things, or is it just the start of vol1?

My understanding is that it was basically a college textbook. Somewhat out of context without a teacher... You would be also doing private lessons, taking ear training classes, learning/memorizing tunes with an ensemble, listening etc etc.

This book is simply one small PIECE toward overall musicianship. It's not a JAZZ improv method per se.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[Jazzstdnt]

I learned to read before I knew about Leavitt's books. I just looked over Vol III. It looks to me that there's a lot of useful info in there. If you work thru the book you'll clearly know the fretboard, scales arps and so forth. And, his fingerings are interesting. They don't feel natural to me, but I'm guessing that they may feel very natural to somebody who learns this way, and that might be a great thing.

But, it is noteworthy that there is very little syncopation in Vol 3. This is certainly not a criticism. I'm sure he didn't intend this to be the only three books anybody ever used.

In a way, it looks to me like Leavitt's Vol 3 is not just about reading, but also about preparing the player to improvise using the tools in the book. That could be a great thing.

But, if you're in a jazz band and somebody puts a chart on your music stand, you're likely to be reading syncopation. And, to me, it would be more fun to learn with it because it might sound more like jazz.

After Complete Rhythms by Colin and Bower, you might look at Lenny Niehaus books, but I'm sure that others will have suggestions. I don't know which books Berklee uses for syncopation, but I'm curious about it, if anybody knows.

In private lessons - beyond the technique exams per level, they use tunes, and some teachers require transcriptions, and some other drills.

Leavitt has supplements of course, and one of them is "Melodic Rhythms". A few of those are sprinkled in the method too. If you go Leavitt's way you go with his supplemental books too, including two volumes devoted to reading. Good stuff.

Further along these lines (jazz phrasing etc.)..... I would recommend Snidero's series. It has been adapted to guitar. You can play along with Joe Cohn then go on your own (with the rest of the recorded jazz band that is). It's jazz and you will notice a difference from Leavitt from the very first tune - Basie's Blues.

[Jazzstdnt]

Can someone help me clarify one little thing. I feel few of the lessons yet, have contained any information on what you actually practice. Is this because the start of vol1 is mostly about learning to sight read, and learning the fretboard at the open position? I am at exercise 7 now. Is this the same for most of vol1, and then in vol2 there are more lessons on other things, or is it just the start of vol1?

You practice what is presented, in the order in which it is presented. Most method books work this way, regardless of instrument, and have done so for centuries. In volume 1 it's pretty well laid out.

If you want know what is in the volumes, look at the Index in the back.

When it comes to the higher level volumes from Leavitt, Berklee now has the order of materials presented slightly differently in their guitar curriculum, especially when it come to arpeggios. Their 8 levels of "barrier exams" (to borrow a term from another university) are a little more spaced out in terms of content. Their website has some details on that. But don't worry about that right now.

[znerken]

My understanding is that it was basically a college textbook. Somewhat out of context without a teacher... You would be also doing private lessons, taking ear training classes, learning/memorizing tunes with an ensemble, listening etc etc.

This book is simply one small PIECE toward overall musicianship. It's not a JAZZ improv method per se.

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

That’s true, but can’t practice everything at once. When you practice the exercises in the book, you also practice many things perhaps the exercises wasn’t meant to be about. For example string muting, which is really clear when doing the exercises at low tempo. You really hear the need for exercise. You also practice rhythm, since you need to use a metronome. I also practice the c major scale in position 2 one hour every day, as that’s what my teacher told me to. Playing the scale straight, over drone and etudes. In one month, I think I’ll start on next position. Then when I got all of them under my fingers, I’ll start practicing them together. I want to do this right. Also, I try to split the fretboard in two now, for practice. Every day I get my girlfriend to practice the fretboard with me for 30 minutes. Like, find all the A, or point and ask which note is this. Since I am working on position 2, I only do that with fret 1-5. After a while, I’ll do the same with the help of my girlfriend, with frets 6-12.

[Jazzstdnt]

I also practice the c major scale in position 2 one hour every day, as that’s what my teacher told me to. Playing the scale straight, over drone and etudes. In one month, I think I’ll start on next position.

No way, seriously? Why?

Are you playing it smoothly at a certain tempo? What happens two minutes in? Does it become monotonous and if so at what point time-wise?

[znerken]

No way, seriously? Why?

Are you playing it smoothly at a certain tempo? What happens two minutes in? Does it become monotonous and if so at what point time-wise?

As I said, when it gets boring I switch. I play it as a etude, over a drone as a solo, or just up and down. I just do as my teacher say I’m fine with it, really, I am thinking of doing it for each of the 7 positions. You really got to get them under your finger, and work on connecting them, then you can use them in other keys.

Why? Because when I had my first session with my teacher this week, he told me I knew too much stuff, but none of it good enough. I had practiced too much at the same time, so when we did basic exercises in c major, I got really unsure and messed up stuff. Of course, I was nervous, very much so, but still. So know I try to get 100% confident in the first 5 frets, and be as confident in position 2 c major as possible. That way, when he sees me next time, and I am approved C major scale wise, we can start using it over music :-)