The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I finally had a speed breakthrough, although it might be dangerous long-term.

    I play from my wrist. Put simply, I have to let my wrist kind of shake, the way you would if you were trying to shake water off your hand.

    The problem is that I have to bring my elbow into it, and that creates tension, I know.

    Doing it with control is also a challenge, but it got me some extra beats per minute consistently.

    I have seen Andreas Osberg do the same thing it that Blues video somebody posted. It is good for some short-term speed, but I fear using it long term.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I'm happy you've found something that helps.
    Hope there are no undesirable side-effects.

  4. #3
    I've seen this technique a lot in the metal community - people like Rusty Cooley, for example, use it for their very very fast lines.

    The guy who has the world record for most notes per second on guitar (to my knowledge) has made a short video about using a technique like this. I'm not sure how applicable it is to jazz, but it's interesting to look at, at least.


  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    I've seen this technique a lot in the metal community - people like Rusty Cooley, for example, use it for their very very fast lines.

    The guy who has the world record for most notes per second on guitar (to my knowledge) has made a short video about using a technique like this. I'm not sure how applicable it is to jazz, but it's interesting to look at, at least.

    Thanks for posting this. I have had time to revisit it again. I saw that video awhile back. Very informative and helpful!

    With me, I end up locking down my bicep, just like he does, which is not wise to do for too long, limiting my ability to use this at this point.

    To be honest, for now, I can't produce Jazz lines at speeds that will allow me to use this. Maybe a few runs here or there, but I don't have to "wrist shake" to play them. Also, at those speeds, I pick faster than my left hand can fret, especially if the ol' pink is involved. So I will be using it for other genres.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 04-07-2018 at 11:15 AM.

  6. #5

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    Speaking of a loose wrist:


  7. #6

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    She has a very supple right hand, very clean!

  8. #7
    I had an argument in the comments of one of the vids Troy did on Molly Tuttle on YouTube... some metalhead in the comments was complaining that Troy had moved away from the rock stuff into bluegrass and other genres... I pointed out that what Molly's doing is probably harder and more impressive than most metal guitarists and he told me I was wrong and that she wasn't impressive.

    I'm not sure how he was typing when he is evidently blind AND deaf, but each to their own.

  9. #8

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    Tuttle is a wonderful player! The problem with talking about physical technique is that people use certain terms differently from each other. As you probably know from the Troy Grady videos, movements are more complicated than they appear visually and more complicated than the way they are usually described, even by the players doing them. Lot's of people claim that a certain approach is "safer," or more ergonomically correct, or more efficient than another. They pretty much never prove this with any data of any kind. No matter how great a player they are, they almost never indicate they have any professional level knowledge of anatomy, exercise physiology, etc. Even people who have significant knowledge of these fields argue over what is the "best" way to move. That leaves us where we started, experimenting to find something that enables us to play what we hear without getting hurt.

    One thing that actually hand Doctors will tell you is that finger movements with a significantly bent wrist increase the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome or tendon injuries. People in various movement education methods like Feldenkrais, Alexander, etc (scientifically unproven methods but worth trying) will tell you that in general, using more of you body, combining movements around more joints, increases ability and decreases the stress around any one joint. What that means to me in picking technique is that I'm probably better off if my picking movement involves a combination of 1) forearm up and down at the elbow, 2) forearm rotating at the elbow, 3) hand movements in all planes at the wrist, 4) upper arm rotation at the shoulder and 5) maybe some movement of the index and thumb.

    I'm cautious about the index/thumb movement. I know Pasquale Grasso is incredible. Like others, he claims his approach is "safer." But the index movement appears to be primarily around the second joint. I believe the stronger finger movement is the one at the largest joint and that doesn't seem to be possible in conjunction with the thumb movement he does. I also think he is actually getting a lot of his picking power from the forearm movement of the elbow, even if he doesn't say so. I believe that lots of players allow a certain amount of thumb and index movement to occur, not by muscular effort, by as a reaction to the pick being pushed against the string by movements at the wrist/elbow/shoulder. The pick is sort of being forced out of the plane of the strings and the fingers are allowing it to happan.

    Just my two cents. I could be entirely wrong.

  10. #9
    I've messed around with Pasquale's technique. The motion mostly comes from the biggest knuckle of the index finger, with the thumb going along for the ride. To get a feel for it, hold your hand in a fist except for your index and thumb, like you're miming shooting someone.

    Pull your extended finger into your fist. Then extend it again so it's pointing. That's the basic "feel" of the technique Pasquale uses, although keeps the second joint of his index bent so he can keep the pick in place with his thumb. The upstroke feels a lot like you're doing a free stroke with your index finger, and then you extend the finger out for the down stroke, possibly including some thumb extension as well - another poster here on the forum described it as "index pull, thumb push".

    It takes time to get it up to speed, though, and even then, after a certain point you have to involve wrist or elbow movement. Someone else whose "default" technique is index and thumb, Dannyjoe Carter, moves the "shaking" from the elbow for his fastest lines.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Speaking of a loose wrist:
    I was unfamiliar with Molly Tuttle. Very impressive. And entertaining. (With guitar technique, the two don't always go hand in hand.)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I was unfamiliar with Molly Tuttle. Very impressive. And entertaining. (With guitar technique, the two don't always go hand in hand.)
    I love Molly's playing, and her singing is great too. Rare combination, imho.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Speaking of a loose wrist:

    Thanks for the introduction to this highly talented individual. I, too, was not familiar with her. I am going to have to check out that video for Troy.

  14. #13

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    Here is that Oberg video.

    At 1:56 and at 2:10, you can see that loose wrist plus some elbow when he really kicks in some speed.

    Last edited by AlsoRan; 04-07-2018 at 02:05 PM.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Here is that Oberg video.

    At 1:56, you can see that loose wrist plus some elbow when he really kicks in some speed.

    I'm confused, that looks like a lot of tightness to me.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I'm confused, that looks like a lot of tightness to me.
    Others have said the same thing about their observation. I see (or at least I think I see) that on faster runs, such as at that 1:57 point, he starts using his elbow while his wrist and fingers shake.

    I seem to see him locking up his forearm and bicep, especially at 2:10, and then incorporating a little elbow and wildly shaking wrist, just like in the video posted by Shadow of the Sun. I will take another look.

    Oh, and I can see what you are saying in comparison to your video of the young lady- that was a really loose wrist, yet so well under control.

    Andreas has less pick string clearance, IMHO, by necessity given the speed of some of the lines. What do you think?

  17. #16

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    One thing is for sure, this is another example showing there is nothing wrong with letting your palm or pinky rest on the guitar. Whatever resonance is lost seems inconsequential to my ears. I would not notice it.

  18. #17

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    This is how i do tremolos. Getting in time can take a little work.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    One thing is for sure, this is another example showing there is nothing wrong with letting your palm or pinky rest on the guitar. Whatever resonance is lost seems inconsequential to my ears. I would not notice it.
    No, it's the sensible thing to do. There's no way to get the same picking precision with a floating hand.

    I rest my palm (mostly the pad of my thumb part). Some may shy away from this as it may sound thinner (especially on acoustics) compared to rest strokes etc. However, it's often due to the different angle and less downward force of the pick. One has to adjust the thumb/index so that the pick hits at the right angle (pull them inwards), and the fullness is back.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune
    No, it's the sensible thing to do. There's no way to get the same picking precision with a floating hand.
    That’s a strong statement lol. Perhaps you mean ‘I’ve never been able to find a way to do it.’

  21. #20

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    No guitarist has a single technique, IMHO. The physical nature of the interaction between a human and a guitar requires a set of techniques than we move back and forth between. There is a lot of princess and the pea in the discussions by various "experts" on guitar technique. Besides, who is "right?" Wes Montgomery? Joe Pass? George Benson? Pat Metheny? Pat Martino? Chuck Wayne? All of them have idiosyncratic technique and good results.

    AFAIAC, the ne plus ultra plectrum guitar technique belonged to Johnny Smith and his was misrepresented by "experts." His discussion of it here provides the necessary perspective in the first half and specifically around the 12:00 minute mark.



    Johnny's approach was almost remorselessly logical.
    Last edited by Cunamara; 04-08-2018 at 01:39 PM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s a strong statement lol. Perhaps you mean ‘I’ve never been able to find a way to do it.’
    Maybe it came off a bit wrong. I don't mean that's what everybody should do, that depends entirely on what one want to achieve, but it is the way to get the most precision/speed for single note lines. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen anyone play really fast without support (palm or fingers).

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune
    Maybe it came off a bit wrong. I don't mean that's what everybody should do, that depends entirely on what one want to achieve, but it is the way to get the most precision/speed for single note lines. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen anyone play really fast without support (palm or fingers).
    How fast is fast?



    BTW - before you say he's anchoring the right hand here - he isn't. The back of the knuckle touches the guitar lightly but it is not supporting his picking hand. That's a different thing from the anchoring Molly is doing above.

    Not saying one is better than the other. Just as a floating wrist player myself I don't feel I have problems at speed. OTOH I'm not trying to play Paul Gilbert licks.

  24. #23

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    BTW I can't help but think Johnny Smith's right hand looks more similar to Stochello as he gets fast. Not so much of a wrist angle, perhaps.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    How fast is fast?



    BTW - before you say he's anchoring the right hand here - he isn't. The back of the knuckle touches the guitar lightly but it is not supporting his picking hand. That's a different thing from the anchoring Molly is doing above.
    It's surely a different thing from what Molly does, yes, but how can you say that the knuckle reference is not supporting his picking hand? That's exactly what it does, if you ask me. His pick moves around while his knuckles feel the static reference plane. He'd be pissed if you cut a hole where his knuckles rest

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune
    It's surely a different thing from what Molly does, yes, but how can you say that the knuckle reference is not supporting his picking hand? That's exactly what it does, if you ask me. His pick moves around while his knuckles feel the static reference plane. He'd be pissed if you cut a hole where his knuckles rest
    Every teacher of gypsy jazz picking tells you not to anchor the right hand, but it's OK to brush the soundboard lightly with your knuckles.

    If you look his right hand knuckles move over the face of the guitar so it's acting as a positional sensor. It's definitely helping in that sense, I do the same thing myself.

    If that's anchoring to you, then there you go, but anchoring to me is locking the position of one part of the hand to the instrument and moving from there.

    With this 'brushing' thing, the hand continues to move freely.

    So semantics aside, I think that's an important distinction to make when examining different techniques.

    I just thought, for electric technique it's possible to differentiate players that right hand mute without anchoring and those that combine the two.