The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Are you claiming that there are classical performers that are viewed musicians of the highest caliber that for example refuse to play Paganini cause they can't do speed and yet they're still viewed as equals to say Itzhak Perlman, Hillery Hahn, David Oistrakh or Anne-Sophie Mutter?

    And when you say all the repertoire what exactly do you mean. Surely it includes the Charlie Parker stuff like antropology .. or is that not not fast playing but more a medium tempo stroll?

    Hi, L,
    Paragraph 1: All great violinists should be able to play Paganini(good example!) however, some choose not to for personal reasons of taste/repertoire.
    Paragraph 2: Yes. A great Jazzer should be able to play CP favorites. I think CP for an intermediate/advanced sax player is very accessible due to the nature/morphology of the instrument. However, not so much for Jazz guitarists(speed potential for CP licks) since the instrument and technique are so different. Much more difficult. Good points.

    Play live . . . Marinero

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Re muting, ok you can play floating and not have TOO much issues with noise on electric, but muting is also a technique in itself. I use it quite a lot when playing rock stuff, as I'm sure most guitarists. So pushing a strictly floating RH technique is not gonna work for most and I would never teach it unless you want to be limited to just classical jazz or GJ.
    Eh? Who does that?

    Anyway one of the handy things about what Troy calls DWPS is it works for electric and acoustic; just modify your hand position accordingly and use different movements; but you are still using downward rest strokes.

    I suppose some (dogmatic) teachers universally advocate floating wrist. I’m glad I never listened to any teachers on the subject of pick technique... it was clear that wasn’t going to work for rock guitar. I played with muted technique for years, only changing when I needed to.

  4. #78

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    I think Marinero can’t play Charlie Parker head so therefore it’s OK for jazz guitarists not to? ;-)

    (I honestly don’t care either way, I just think it’s funny; play what you like.)

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Oh, hadn’t joined the dots: you’re Jake Estner? You have great chops!

    100% what you said BTW
    Thank you! Yeah I think you and I have messaged across a few different mediums now, though I've been on here pretty infrequently the past few years.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Re muting, ok you can play floating and not have TOO much issues with noise on electric, but muting is also a technique in itself. I use it quite a lot when playing rock stuff, as I'm sure most guitarists. So pushing a strictly floating RH technique is not gonna work for most and I would never teach it unless you want to be limited to just classical jazz or GJ.

    EVH sure used it for tremolo, but 99% his wrist is on the bridge. Where it should be
    But one has to learn a muting technique regardless of float vs not float.

    If I'm basically forced to teach one hand position for picking, I don't teach the floating thing only because I'm less personally familiar with it, I can more easily explain/help/problem solve students with grips that are similar to mine. But I've seen enough people play great with that orientation that I don't have real reason to believe it can't work as a default - I think most people, like me, just have fewer tools for ironing out the kinks when it comes to instructing another player.

    It's a bit like...is it less common (on electric, to be more specific) because it doesn't work as well, on average, or is it less common because the ways of executing it are less well known and less conducive to general guess work? Shrug.

  7. #81

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    I think picking mostly comes from the wrist, and the arm is only used for warp speed runs of short duration. Pinching forefinger and thumb strikes me as less efficient, but I believe it's used by Wakenius. The 'gypsy' players seem to have worked out economy picking for cross-string picking. Alternate strokes when picking inside strings is the least effective for speed because the pick needs to double back on itself. Having an abundance of twitch muscles gives some players an edge. You'd think minimal movement and anchoring would add mph and needed support, but look at Pat Martino where neither seems apparent. It's worth remembering though the arm is always supported at some point, either at the elbow, the wrist, or fingers.

    The use of a metronome is very important in my view—at least for jazz. For uptempo tunes, lines (phrases) need to be played consistently sometimes for several bars. Lines will have both paths of least resistance that tempt faster execution, and challenging fingerings that pull back execution. The tempo is therefore set by the more challenging fragment of a line. A metronome will highlight these points, and can help overcome the speed bumps, by practicing incremental increases in repetition. It's amazing how much faster you can play than you thought possible.

    I've always been struck by the inefficiency of the guitar. A tiny slither of plastic needs to strike a thin metal wire with such precision to sound a note. A piano, by contrast, does this for you with mechanical precision. I've come round to thinking some of the most effective picking workarounds are found in developing hammer-ons and pull-offs. Sylvain Luc, Pat Metheny, and Joe Pass seemed to have arrived at the same conclusion.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think Marinero can’t play Charlie Parker head so therefore it’s OK for jazz guitarists not to? ;-)

    (I honestly don’t care either way, I just think it’s funny; play what you like.)
    Hi, C,
    Charlie Parker head? Translation?
    Play live . . . Marinero

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    Charlie Parker head? Translation?
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Do you know what a Charlie Parker head is?

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by vsaumarez
    I think picking mostly comes from the wrist, and the arm is only used for warp speed runs of short duration. Pinching forefinger and thumb strikes me as less efficient, but I believe it's used by Wakenius. The 'gypsy' players seem to have worked out economy picking for cross-string picking. Alternate strokes when picking inside strings is the least effective for speed because the pick needs to double back on itself. Having an abundance of twitch muscles gives some players an edge. You'd think minimal movement and anchoring would add mph and needed support, but look at Pat Martino where neither seems apparent. It's worth remembering though the arm is always supported at some point, either at the elbow, the wrist, or fingers.

    The use of a metronome is very important in my view—at least for jazz. For uptempo tunes, lines (phrases) need to be played consistently sometimes for several bars. Lines will have both paths of least resistance that tempt faster execution, and challenging fingerings that pull back execution. The tempo is therefore set by the more challenging fragment of a line. A metronome will highlight these points, and can help overcome the speed bumps, by practicing incremental increases in repetition. It's amazing how much faster you can play than you thought possible.

    I've always been struck by the inefficiency of the guitar. A tiny slither of plastic needs to strike a thin metal wire with such precision to sound a note. A piano, by contrast, does this for you with mechanical precision. I've come round to thinking some of the most effective picking workarounds are found in developing hammer-ons and pull-offs. Sylvain Luc, Pat Metheny, and Joe Pass seemed to have arrived at the same conclusion.
    This post is a bit of a generalisation. People do things in all kinds of ways...

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Do you know what a Charlie Parker head is?
    Is this 20 Questions? I haven't played that game since childhood. O.K. No. What's a Charlie Parker head? And, if it refers to the "theme" we called it melody or top . . . never used the term "head" in Chitown. And, if it is melody/top, how would you know if I could or could not play a CP "head"? Clairvoyant?

    Play live . . . Marinero

  12. #86

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    "Head"... been using that term since the 70s. Probably been around a lot longer than that, not old enough to have used it before then though. Such a common term in jazz, as common as the term "melody".

    I've tried to develop some speed, mainly to be able to play bebop. Never got fast enough to play Charlie Parker heads up to tempo. They still sound real good at slower tempos.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Is this 20 Questions? I haven't played that game since childhood. O.K. No. What's a Charlie Parker head? And, if it refers to the "theme" we called it melody or top . . . never used the term "head" in Chitown. And, if it is melody/top, how would you know if I could or could not play a CP "head"? Clairvoyant?

    Play live . . . Marinero
    Oh Ok, well I wasn’t sure if you were confused by my bad grammar or unfamiliar with the term.

    Head is a term in common use in jazz circles, usually referring to what you might call a bop contrefact, line etc.

    Of course I have no idea, but I’m guessing from your posts here bop lines probably aren’t your thing so much? As I say I don’t really have much invested either way.

    In would say; In my experience playing a repertoire of CP heads is generally considered a rite of passage for any serious jazz musician, guitarist or otherwise. That is if you call yourself specifically a jazz player and didn’t play any I think it would be considered a bit ... odd? (maybe not if you were a trad player.) not everyone knows tons of them, but all players know at least a few. They tend to get called at most straightahead pickup gigs.

    They all pose challenges for the picking hand. As technical etudes and warm ups I don’t think there’s anything better, precisely because they are so unguitaristic.
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-05-2021 at 05:51 PM.

  14. #88

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    ""Head"... been using that term since the 70s. Probably been around a lot longer than that," Fep


    Hi, F,
    Never heard the term in Chicago during the 60's/70's . . . doesn't mean that it wasn't used elsewhere. And, I never shook my head, winked, or picked my nose. At most, a glance-- but even that was not really necessary. The term we used was "top" and it was never used playing . . . only in rehearsal. I wouldn't bet my mustache but I wouldn't be surprised if its popularity came from the academic teaching of Jazz that needed terms for everything and gained popularity in the 70's and beyond. And . . .I promise . . . I'll never use it again.

    Play live . .. . Marinero

  15. #89

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    The term is used by jazz musicians according to George Benson:

    Personal Speed Picking Breakthrough - Letting Wrist "Shake"-fc9edd37-9bd1-4151-a9ec-3d0aee0dfa9f-jpeg

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    ""Head"... been using that term since the 70s. Probably been around a lot longer than that," Fep


    Hi, F,
    Never heard the term in Chicago during the 60's/70's . . . doesn't mean that it wasn't used elsewhere. And, I never shook my head, winked, or picked my nose. At most, a glance-- but even that was not really necessary. The term we used was "top" and it was never used playing . . . only in rehearsal. I wouldn't bet my mustache but I wouldn't be surprised if its popularity came from the academic teaching of Jazz that needed terms for everything and gained popularity in the 70's and beyond. And . . .I promise . . . I'll never use it again.

    Play live . .. . Marinero
    Head, melody, top, whatever you name it, bebop heads are not easy to play well on the guitar. It takes work and attention to technique, and generally the difficulty is being able to execute at the desired tempo. The dreaded 5 letter word again, "speed."

    So I'm confused as to...do you think playing that stuff on guitar is 'pyrotechnics' yet not on the sax? Are 8th notes at bebop tempos "supersonic"? Is that kind of vocabulary not part of the basic jazz repertoire? Is it easy to play that stuff without any attention to "speed" and pick technique?



    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I believe your argument falls apart very quickly when you try to define "supersonic" speed or 'pyrotechnics.'

    Discussions of pick technique are usually discussions of how to do something faster. The practical issue that students and teachers generally have to address is how do we get from a being able to play something at a tempo of X to a tempo of >X. That's not pyrotechnics. Speed is more than an element or aspect...it's a variable. It's a measurable variable that exists in literally all music, except I suppose for a song that consists of one note only played once, with no repetitions.

    Being able to play a melodic line at the correct tempo is absolutely a fundamental of learning/playing music. It's in the exact same category of these other topics we're both referencing. Without abilities and awareness of "speed," in the broad sense, we're putting an arbitrary amount of time in between each note..

    Sometimes the correct/desired tempo is faster than what we're capable of. ERGO...practice and problem solving, just like we would apply for any other element of building our musicianship.

    Even if you have a specific tangible marking of what is "too fast," the measurement would be very subjective...You mention jazz and classical...how much of this music is 'high velocity', difficult to play on the guitar, especially with a plectrum...a whole hell of a lot of it. Coltrane, Benson, Martino, Stitt, Bird, Lee Morgan, Metheny, Wes, Rosenwinkel, McCoy Tyner...playing any of that stuff on guitar, at their tempos, takes an amount of facility that does not come naturally to most players. If it has for you, that's awesome and congrats, but you're definitely in the minority. Even players we think of as a bit more subdued, Bill Evans, Grant Green, Jim Hall, Wayne Shorter, there's still plenty of vocabulary from those folks that is challenging on the guitar. In the classical world...it's probably harder to look for examples of famous pieces that don't have speed-related changes than pieces that do.

  17. #91

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    The thing is to become so comfortable with speed that it becomes just another arrow in the quiver of expression. Can't be the only thing you do. Who wants that?

    I get that lots of folks view it as folly, but it's not in the hands of an artist.

    And how can someone say that speed is not a requirement of the classical repertoire? I saw Horowitz in his last performance at Carnegie Hall. He burned. He was a rock star. At 83 years old. That's even older than Mick (I think)

    Myself, I'm currently working on Inner Urge because I like the head and the changes. And I like the challenge. How you gonna make sense of the last 8 bars without being able to burn? Been doing serious 'nome work on that. I'm learning things that can be put to use in other ways and other tempos.

    BTW: the jazz melody has been called the head for as long as I can remember. Started hearing it in the late sixties on the west coast. In Canada even.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Eh? Who does that?

    Anyway one of the handy things about what Troy calls DWPS is it works for electric and acoustic; just modify your hand position accordingly and use different movements; but you are still using downward rest strokes.

    I suppose some (dogmatic) teachers universally advocate floating wrist. I’m glad I never listened to any teachers on the subject of pick technique... it was clear that wasn’t going to work for rock guitar. I played with muted technique for years, only changing when I needed to.
    Some GJ folks I knew around in NY.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Is this 20 Questions? I haven't played that game since childhood. O.K. No. What's a Charlie Parker head? And, if it refers to the "theme" we called it melody or top . . . never used the term "head" in Chitown. And, if it is melody/top, how would you know if I could or could not play a CP "head"? Clairvoyant?

    Play live . . . Marinero
    You don't need to be clairvoyant to figure that out.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    But one has to learn a muting technique regardless of float vs not float.

    If I'm basically forced to teach one hand position for picking, I don't teach the floating thing only because I'm less personally familiar with it, I can more easily explain/help/problem solve students with grips that are similar to mine. But I've seen enough people play great with that orientation that I don't have real reason to believe it can't work as a default - I think most people, like me, just have fewer tools for ironing out the kinks when it comes to instructing another player.

    It's a bit like...is it less common (on electric, to be more specific) because it doesn't work as well, on average, or is it less common because the ways of executing it are less well known and less conducive to general guess work? Shrug.
    It's less common on electric because once people discovered the sonic pallet of the electric guitar it was a no brainer. R.H. muting, palm on the bridge is the most useful thing, so no need for floating unless you strumming full chords of course.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The term is used by jazz musicians according to George Benson:

    Personal Speed Picking Breakthrough - Letting Wrist "Shake"-fc9edd37-9bd1-4151-a9ec-3d0aee0dfa9f-jpeg

    O.K. G,
    I'll play. Are these Benson's words or Goldsher's? Did Benson talk like that when describing other musicians? Was it Goldsher's terminology to describe the process("head," "trading fours") in such an academic way to explain the process to neophytes to music? Or was it Benson? It sounds, to me, like a writer writing about musicians in a glamorized/informative way so the general public could relate to the information and be engaged. I could be wrong. However, I played steady for a few pennies short of ten years in clubs, on the road, in small combos and big bands in the late 60's to late 70's. I never heard a player say during a performance "Let's trade 4's" or "Play the head" before a tune. When a player soloed during a performance, he set the length that the next soloist usually followed unless the other guy ran out of ideas and played less time. I, also, never knew anyone who called other musicians "cats." Not that I have anything against felines but we used a person's name when referring to each other or . . . others ,not in our circle, who were playing around town. . . "Hey, PJ's playing at Big Mike's on Wells." Maybe they talked like that in the 40's/50'/early 60's . . . but I wasn't playing for pay then. And, I will promise you on Gideon's Bible with one hand placed in reverence on its faux leather bound cover . . . I NEVER USED THE WORD "CAT" to describe anything other than a 4 legged feline or a woman with a bad attitude. What a difference a day makes!
    Play live . . . Parker heads, Trading 4's, Cat-Man-Do . . . God, I hate that talk . . . Just play . . . Marinero

    P.S. And, for the record, during the Hippie Years, I never used the word "Man" or "Dude" when referring to another person . . . "Hey, Man . . .Hey, Dude . . . that's cool." I guess I've missed a lot of life. M


  22. #96
    In my experience with older players,when they are tired of people soloing the band leader taps his head and means play the melody or go back to the top. They use hand signals for keys,too. one up is G, two fingers down is b flat, go the bridge is curved movement. Circle motion is turnaround. Makes it easy in noisy places!

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K. G,
    I'll play. Are these Benson's words or Goldsher's? Did Benson talk like that when describing other musicians? Was it Goldsher's terminology to describe the process("head," "trading fours") in such an academic way to explain the process to neophytes to music? Or was it Benson? It sounds, to me, like a writer writing about musicians in a glamorized/informative way so the general public could relate to the information and be engaged. I could be wrong. However, I played steady for a few pennies short of ten years in clubs, on the road, in small combos and big bands in the late 60's to late 70's. I never heard a player say during a performance "Let's trade 4's" or "Play the head" before a tune. When a player soloed during a performance, he set the length that the next soloist usually followed unless the other guy ran out of ideas and played less time. I, also, never knew anyone who called other musicians "cats." Not that I have anything against felines but we used a person's name when referring to each other or . . . others ,not in our circle, who were playing around town. . . "Hey, PJ's playing at Big Mike's on Wells." Maybe they talked like that in the 40's/50'/early 60's . . . but I wasn't playing for pay then. And, I will promise you on Gideon's Bible with one hand placed in reverence on its faux leather bound cover . . . I NEVER USED THE WORD "CAT" to describe anything other than a 4 legged feline or a woman with a bad attitude. What a difference a day makes!
    Play live . . . Parker heads, Trading 4's, Cat-Man-Do . . . God, I hate that talk . . . Just play . . . Marinero

    P.S. And, for the record, during the Hippie Years, I never used the word "Man" or "Dude" when referring to another person . . . "Hey, Man . . .Hey, Dude . . . that's cool." I guess I've missed a lot of life. M

    Yea, but have you heard the word 'SQUARE' ?

  24. #98

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    I think "cats" is a very dated term, maybe the 60s or earlier. I'm guessing "head" is dated also as it was passed down from the old guys, Joe Pass used the term.

    I've heard Benson use the term "cats"

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    I'm guessing "head" is dated
    Totally dated. Unfortunately the jazz scene in NYC didn't get the memo though. Or in Shanghai for that matter.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Are these Benson's words or Goldsher's?
    Benson’s.

    I could be wrong.
    You are.