The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey guys,


    I’ve recently been working on very basic permutations of major und minor triads such as these shown in the attached picture. While doing so I started wondering how to go about the sheer endless ammount of possibilities there are to move around the fretboard.


    While with composed music we can take our time to figure out the most appealing path(s) for a given musical situation, with improvisation we never know what happens before or after. We might hear a line that consists (partly) of any of these permutations while we create. And suddenly the musical flow might require to play it starting with the index finger on the 5th fret, or the pinky on the 10th fret or whatever it is. Sometimes we might wanna stay in position, sometimes the line might require to move diagonally accross the fretboard and what not. You get the idea.


    I wonder: How do you guys go about this? Learning these in 5 or 7 positions and 12 keys takes time but appears to be managable. But once you start shifting positions it gets crazy in terms of possible combinations. It appears to be close to impossible to learn all of them and obviously many of them don’t make sense from a technical point of view anyways. Have you found specific paths for yourself that seemed to be worth spending time on? Do you follow a system?


    I’m curious Cheers

    Permutations across the fretboard-g-major-permutations-jpg

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  3. #2

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    Well, you're looking at is as a math problem, but nobody uses all permutations, we choose the ones that sound good to us, and then we use our ears to lead us to some of those permutations that sound good, and pick up more along the way. Most of what you posted are exercises to teach our brain how to manipulate the mechanics, then we use the ears and creativity to create music from it all. Ideally.

    But the fact is, you need thousands of hours to get to a place where you can play what you hear, because you can't plan your improvisations. That creates the need for a very good technique, or at least enough technique to express what you feel and hear.

  4. #3

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    If I thought about what it takes to walk, all the possible ways to move just one leg, falling into space and being caught by the other leg with the foot in just the right position, I wouldn't be able to do it. So there are guidelines that form the patterns of practice and that becomes the basis for your style; you'll tend to not favour the positions that are not useful for you.
    You know philidor, it seems like there are an infinite number of permutations, but in truth, we choose our own limitations and they determine our own language.
    For me, improvisation involves being able to hear areas of tonality, then targeting an area of the fingerboard (working within a specific range), finding the tonic there and using fingers that are strong and comfortable within that tonality. For instance, I've got a phrase I hear, the changes indicate a G major tonality. I can find several G's on the fingerboard, so I choose one that fits whether I want to play it in an upper range or low. Then there are only a few fingerings that will give me strength (in a major I might start with the "do" under my middle finger of the left hand, things fall together nicely there, or index works for me too. I play my statement and it leads to my next tonal area which I can move to. That's the way I see it: Take a trip, know where you're going, know how to be comfortable when you get there, move on.

    I have no idea whether this is the kind of perspective you're looking for and sorry for the non sequitor if it's not. It's a simple answer that involves the integration of ear, compositional structure, fingerboard mobility and strength and comfort in execution.
    Frankly, once I learned to navigate by interval, it became increasingly natural.

    Take a simple idea.
    Figure out how to play it from a specific note all along the fingerboard.
    Move that idea within the diatonic framework.
    This'll give you an idea of how vast your options are, but you won't look at them as infinitely intimidating.

    Then do this within a tune. Play it by ear, then devote serious time to figuring out how to play it comfortable along the guidelines of sound. Let the tune teach you and keep an open mind and ear.

    David

  5. #4

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    If I thought about what it takes to walk, all the possible ways to move just one leg, falling into space and being caught by the other leg with the foot in just the right position, I wouldn't be able to do it. So there are guidelines that form the patterns of practice and that becomes the basis for your style; you'll tend to not favour the positions that are not useful for you.
    That's really funny but there lies a real truth in it.
    We are not on the planet (hopefully) to present our mastery of fingerings.
    Driven by a musical impetus, we execute "by any means necessary" followed by the gradual evolution to
    more refined solutions.

    Frankly, once I learned to navigate by interval, it became increasingly natural.
    Structural trivia:

    Guitar possesses 1-5 unison locations of each note. With the exception of the extreme lowest and highest notes,
    every interval has two viable melodic fingering options. Each additional melody note expands the number of possible
    pathways exponentially. Every decision made, influences our subsequent movements.
    Intervals are the fundamental building block of melodies. Unison and octave locations on the guitar reveal the
    structural organization of how events are mirrored all over the guitar.

    Personal trivia:

    I organize my thinking about the fingerboard in these general categories.

    1.Proximity/Position (for me this is any 5 frets, covering 2 1/3 octaves of a chromatic scale plus one unison note)
    2. Shifting Positions (crafting fingering that take me from here to there)
    3. String Group Organization
    4. Fingerings driven by phrasing and articulation

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philidor
    Hey guys,

    I wonder: How do you guys go about this? Learning these in 5 or 7 positions and 12 keys takes time but appears to be managable. But once you start shifting positions it gets crazy in terms of possible combinations. It appears to be close to impossible to learn all of them and obviously many of them don’t make sense from a technical point of view anyways. Have you found specific paths for yourself that seemed to be worth spending time on? Do you follow a system?
    I don't know if many players would want to do it the way I do it, but here it is:

    I learned to read from my first lesson, and knew the fingerboard -- every fret, every string, every note-- before I started improvising.

    When I began improvising, and for too long thereafter, I was able to play in Cmajor more easily than other keys. Why? Because there are no accidentals and I knew where every note in Cmajor lay on the fingerboard.

    Triads have a certain geometry that you get used to. It's complicated by the fact that the guitar isn't tuned entirely in 4ths. Pesky third G to B.

    Now, in terms of getting from one place to another: It's tricky on guitar. Some players, apparently, play out of a position. So, for example, they know the CAGED patterns and play out of one, and then move to another. After a while the connections become second nature and, reportedly, it all becomes one big pattern.

    When I started practicing the Segovia scales, I noticed that he made big position shifts and could make them sound seamless at high tempo. That's what made me start thinking about moving up and down the neck more. It's possible to do it at surprisingly high speed.

    From a teacher, I learned that there is value to ignoring the idea of one finger per fret when making a position shift. For example, there are passages where you play a note with your pinkie and then play a note a fret lower on a different string with your index finger. You can get that seamless too.

    So, you end up with more shapes/patterns than I think it's possible to assimilate in a lifetime. The good news is that you don't need them all.

    I end up trying to make melody and find the notes. It works better at lower tempos and becomes burdensome at higher tempos. For high tempo you may be better off with some memorized licks.

    How to practice to get there? Read stuff all the time. Work out the fingering problems creatively. Get a teacher if you get stuck. Work on hearing a melody in your mind and finding it automatically. Pick songs you know well, sing them to yourself and play along. Over time, it comes. Play bop heads. Learn some arpeggio fingerings. (I have five for every basic chord that I can apply when the tempo gets tough).

    To play stuff like the chart you posted at high speed, you have to think carefully about fingering and picking. Too big a topic for this post.

    Be aware, that you'll end up playing what you practice.

    Other players absolutely swear by study of triads and sound terrific. I never really did it in any formal way, but, still, on a good day, I can play what is in my mind. So, a caveat is that I can't really answer your question the way some other players might be able to.

  7. #6

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    Without over answering I will add this.

    If you use a 5 fingering pattern system, like the so-called "CAGED system" you should be able to play at least 7 one octave arpeggios in any inversion, and in some cases more. (Basically, from two starting fingers from strings 6,5,4,3) Some arpeggios (like Dim7, Dom7#5, Sus4, may influence you to choose fewer than 7 due to awkwardness/difficulty), it's up to you.

    So, if you can play those then you should be able to play permutations of same. But - not all permutations are created equal - sound wise - like Ron said.

    So, pick a few and see what you CAN do, then decide what you WANT to do about it. My opinion is that you do not need to spend your time practicing them all, like a machine.

  8. #7
    Thanks guys, appreciate your input! I think everyone got a slightly different idea of what I was trying to address.
    This is me practicing the blues in 2 keys, a tritone apart:

    I think you can tell from the video that I like to play in positions. It's not exactly that I have troubles connecting them, but you'll hardly see me moving diagonally across the fretboard, cause I haven't really studied those paths. I basically know how the notes I play relate to the key and/or the given chord (worked really hard on selling that maj7 on the tonic haha) and I can most of the time play what I hear (it's something like 90% ears, 5% of surprising myself and 5% accidents on a good day :P).

    So what I'm really trying is to open up new doors for paths that I usually wouldn't take. The main purpose is to become more fluent, especially when things get fast, make position shifting more natural and especially be able to do them in the middle of lines and not just after ending them. I think this will greatly help to develop more freedom - from a technical point of view as well as from a musical.

    With some of you I think I had a little misunderstanding: I wasn't referring to the infinite amount of permutations but to the huge amount of paths and/or fingerings for let's say just ONE of the permutations I posted. I know I'm a little obsessed with checking out all possibilities I can think of and I realize that one can't be prepared for every musical idea in every situation. But still I'd like to take it to the next level, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Driven by a musical impetus, we execute "by any means necessary" followed by the gradual evolution to more refined solutions.
    That's a really good way of putting it!

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    1.Proximity/Position (for me this is any 5 frets, covering 2 1/3 octaves of a chromatic scale plus one unison note)
    2. Shifting Positions (crafting fingering that take me from here to there)
    3. String Group Organization
    4. Fingerings driven by phrasing and articulation
    That's basically how I think about it. Only, can you explain what you mean by 3. String Group Organization when it comes to playing arpeggios and permutations? Do you mean something like (more or less) repeating patterns on different sets of strings?

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't know if many players would want to do it the way I do it
    I think we have a very similar way of thinking about the guitar and it's geometry

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    From a teacher, I learned that there is value to ignoring the idea of one finger per fret when making a position shift. For example, there are passages where you play a note with your pinkie and then play a note a fret lower on a different string with your index finger. You can get that seamless too.
    That's a really good point to make. I was once told about a similar thing by a cello player. I'm recently trying to incorporate that into my playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    To play stuff like the chart you posted at high speed, you have to think carefully about fingering and picking. Too big a topic for this post.
    That's actually what I was trying to discuss! Of course we can't go through hundreds of possibilities, but I was curious if you guys found something like patterns to lay out the paths on the fretboard etc.

    But from all of your answers I get the idea that you do not approach this topic highly systematically, which is also a worthy insight!

    I'm sure you all know the Pat Metheny video on warm ups? That's basically what got me started:

  9. #8

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    OK, well after a quick review, and in keeping with my earlier post, I would say that you should be able to play each measure with at least two (2) fingerings.

    That's true of measure 3 which you can play from the third finger and from the second (open and second positions).

    And measure 4 can be played in 7 locations on the fretboard (open position through fourteenth).

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philidor
    T

    That's actually what I was trying to discuss! Of course we can't go through hundreds of possibilities, but I was curious if you guys found something like patterns to lay out the paths on the fretboard etc.
    I was systematic in drilling myself on knowing the notes in the chords and scales I use. I also made sure I could play two octave arpeggios in 5 places on the neck for maj7 min7 min6 minmaj 7 7b9 6 min7b5 etc.

    What I didn't do systematically was practice things in triads.

    As far as the fingering and picking of the chart you posted, here's why I didn't get into it.

    It depends, fundamentally, in my view, on how you pick. That might not seem obvious. A sweep picker, who isn't changing the direction of the pick when moving to a different string usually has an advantage, although it depends on the specific notes. An alternate picker, or someone who does mostly alternate but with slides and pull-offs can get into trouble if the pick is moving the wrong way when switching strings.

    A player who uses light strings but picks hard is at a disadvantage unless he picks near the bridge and minimizes string skipping.

    Chuck Wayne taught 3 notes per string and sweep picking. Down Up Down and then Down again as you move to the next higher pitched string. If you try to do that with two notes per string it comes out differently. And, it's hard to get notes to pop with sweep picking the way they can with alternate. I used to think it couldn't be done, and then I heard Jimmy Bruno.

    So, the fingering choice and the picking choice are not separate. And that doesn't even touch on fingerstyle and pick-and-fingers methods. The choices depend on your physiology to some extent and how you want your music to sound.

    Warren Nunes wrote about, and taught, what he called "speed technique". This sometimes resulted in very strange left hand position switches, all done to accommodate the motion of the pick. It turns out that, for alternate pickers particularly, it's efficient to take advantage of the feasibility of very quick shift of position. So he would move things around to permit, say, a pull-off to give a sixteenth note of space to reposition the pick.

    My experience is that I've studied different techniques with different teachers and cobbled together something that probably is worse than if I studied one technique and stuck with it.

    I don't play a huge number of notes, partly because I can't, and partly because I rarely listen to that type of music anyway. When I need to get a written passage up to speed I can almost always find a way, but it can require a good deal of thought in some cases. If I can't play the line with obvious methods, then I'm thinking about jumps of position, open strings, hammers, pull-offs, fingerings that look odd -- all to make the picking possible, since I can't sweep very well.

    For soloing, I try to sing melody in my head and play that. Except, at fast tempos, I do use some arps, scales and licks. The reason, basically, is that any note played with good time is better than any note played with bad time.

  11. #10

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    I first heard the expression "string groups" from Pat Martino who used the 6 lines of the I Ching to document all the permutations of string combinations.

    3 note per string scales are perhaps the most common string group fingering
    drop 2 guitar voicings are consistently on adjacent strings (6543//5432//4321//)
    drop 3 voicings bass note-skip-3 consecutive (6432//5321)

    Here's something similar to one of your examples:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------10---------------15----------
    ------------------------------------------------8----------12------------12---------------15--------------
    -----------------------------4--------7-----7----------12------------12---------------16-----------------
    -------1-------5---------5---------9-----9---------12-----------------------------------------------------
    ----2--------5--------5---------10-------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -3---------7------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An example of a Gma7 arpeggio organized by string group

    1 note on lower string + 2 notes on adjacent string followed by a shift in this case on the same string
    pattern then starts over
    22nd fret for anyone who has one, not me.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------19---(22)-----------
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------15---19---|----20-----------------------
    -------------------------------------------------11---12---|---16---------------|------------------------------
    ----------------------------5---9----|----12---------------|---------------------|-------------------------------
    --------2---5----|----9--------------|----------------------|---------------------|-------------------------------
    ----3-------------|-------------------|----------------------|---------------------|-------------------------------

  12. #11

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    I look at this as an etude or drill, not a real jazz line. So it's fine to work it out. There are four lines.

    I would play the first line like Johnny Smith. From low G to high D using 3 different positions (2nd, 4th, 7th), each with a root position arpeggio starting on the second finger (strings 6, 4, 2). The descending line could simply reverse or you could play the first two notes in the seventh position and the rest in the second position (starting from the G on the first string).

    The second two lines can both be played in the second position.

    For the last line I would do it like this:

    • First two beats – second position
    • Second two beats - fourth position
    • Second measure – seventh position
    • Then reverse back down – seventh, fourth, second position

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I look at this as an etude or drill, not a real jazz line. So it's fine to work it out. There are four lines.

    I would play the first line like Johnny Smith. From low G to high D using 3 different positions (2nd, 4th, 7th), each with a root position arpeggio starting on the second finger (strings 6, 4, 2). The descending line could simply reverse or you could play the first two notes in the seventh position and the rest in the second position (starting from the G on the first string).

    The second two lines can both be played in the second position.

    For the last line I would do it like this:

    • First two beats – second position
    • Second two beats - fourth position
    • Second measure – seventh position
    • Then reverse back down – seventh, fourth, second position
    I like the Johnny Smith fingering you pointed out. I think it's the best possible.

    For the descending part of the first line, I started in 7th position and made one of those seemingly awkward shifts. I played the D on string 3 with my first finger and then the A right next to it on the D string with my third finger. Then the D on the A string at fifth fret (index), the B on the E string (pinkie) and the G.

    If I was a better sweep picker I might have played the D and A with my index and used an open D for the next note.

  14. #13

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    Yep, there are several ways to descend. They are all a bit trickier than the ascending route.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I look at this as an etude or drill, not a real jazz line. So it's fine to work it out. There are four lines.

    I would play the first line like Johnny Smith. From low G to high D using 3 different positions (2nd, 4th, 7th), each with a root position arpeggio starting on the second finger (strings 6, 4, 2). The descending line could simply reverse or you could play the first two notes in the seventh position and the rest in the second position (starting from the G on the first string).

    The second two lines can both be played in the second position.

    For the last line I would do it like this:

    • First two beats – second position
    • Second two beats - fourth position
    • Second measure – seventh position
    • Then reverse back down – seventh, fourth, second position
    Hey Jazzstdnt,

    Just wondering about that Johnny Smith fingering. Maybe it's from the Mel Bay book (I don't own it and know that JS had serious reservations about the whole publication). His default 3-octave fingering from the earlier Aids To Technique For Guitar is as follows:

    Permutations across the fretboard-js_3octavearp-jpg

  16. #15

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    Yea... I always look for highest and lowest notes and use least amount of position changes

    1) 3rd position start and quickly up to 7th
    2) 2nd
    3) 3nd
    4) 2nd and 3ed with stretches

    You have kind of crazy picking and fingering technique... up down sideways... try and not check out your fretboard while playing.... what happens

    When you mix up picking attacks... it's cool with short phrases... but generally falls apart when expanding length of phrase and when changing positions.

    The point or where you want to get.... is where a fingering or pattern is a 12 fret repeating fingering... yes there are mini or micro details... but just as being in one position has say Gmaj in 2nd position is easy, you don't need to think or stare at neck.... eventually the 2nd position fingering needs to expand to a 12 fret pattern or fingering that is based on that Gmaj reference in 2nd position.

    You need to get past having small patterns and force them to work together, at least than needs to become the basic reference.... you can still jump all over the neck, move up down etc... play licks... whatever, but you have a 12 fret grid that is always in place.
    When you hear or think G you already have all the G's organized all over the fretboard... make it Gmaj same thing.

    I use 7 positions with stretches.

    The picking thing will have a reference to have some type of organization, again just the basic reference. You can phrase anyway you want... but that's a different subject after to have the fingering together you decide on.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    Hey Jazzstdnt,

    Just wondering about that Johnny Smith fingering. Maybe it's from the Mel Bay book (I don't own it and know that JS had serious reservations about the whole publication). His default 3-octave fingering from the earlier Aids To Technique For Guitar is as follows:

    Permutations across the fretboard-js_3octavearp-jpg
    Oops, you're correct, sorry. I don't remember where I picked that up.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Oops, you're correct, sorry. I don't remember where I picked that up.
    That's ok, I also thought of your given fingering as his default and had to go back and check. It's quite possible that he employed both in different contexts.

    One interesting observation about the form outlined in ATTFG: it circumvents the whole issue of playing consecutive notes at the same fret. For example, with many common major arpeggio forms, playing from the 5th and to 1st degrees (D and G in this instance) requires either a roll of a finger across the strings or a stacking up of adjacent digits. In the ATTFG version, this interval is played on the same string for the first and last octaves and only crosses strings in the middle octave where the tuning discrepancy (major 3rd rather than the 4th between the G and B strings) results in the interval appearing at different frets. Conversely, the major 3rd interval (G to B) lies on different strings except for in the final octave, the one place where rolling or stacked fingering would be necessary.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    1) 3rd position start and quickly up to 7th
    Yes that lays out very nicely. Fast and easy.

  20. #19

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    Hi Philidor,

    It is nice to learn that I am not the only one out there that needs structure or at least some kind of methodical approach.

    When I read the quoted lines below in combination with the "seminario" video, I had to reply. The same video has inspired me a lot. I really like the arpeggio's that almost sound like Bach. I am convinced that you can only improvise like this when you have a deep understanding of how the fret-board works. Therefor, after 25 years of playing, I have recently decided to do an in depth study on diatonic triads. I believe, that after you know your basic scales all over the fret-board, you have to dig into harmony. And just skip the advanced stuff. Stick to the basic chords, and avoid any complexity until you fully master the basics. Don't hurry, just enjoy what you hear. Once you learn to see and to play the basic structures, you will be able to keep unlocking new musical doors. At least, that is what I have discovered the last 4 months after getting stuck at the same level for years.

    If you want to know how I got myself on track again you can read about it here:

    Introduction * Connecting the dots

    It is an e-book that I am currently writing. It is unpolished and far from finished yet. I use it as a musical diary. It helps me to keep focused and I hope it will be helpful to other guitarists as well.

    Please, give it a quick read and let me know if it was of any help for you.

    Kind regards,

    Ruckola




    Quote Originally Posted by Philidor

    That's actually what I was trying to discuss! Of course we can't go through hundreds of possibilities, but I was curious if you guys found something like patterns to lay out the paths on the fretboard etc.

    But from all of your answers I get the idea that you do not approach this topic highly systematically, which is also a worthy insight!

    I'm sure you all know the Pat Metheny video on warm ups? That's basically what got me started:

  21. #20
    Thanks for the amazing input guys! What a crazy instrument the guitar is! I used to be frustrated about the endless amount of options that seemed to make speaking fluently harder than on other instruments that I had played. Now thankfully I find beauty in it and love the process and to dig deep.

    You're right, rpjazzguitar, picking has a major effect on the path/fingering choice. Thanks for bringing that up!
    Also I noticed that expanding a line for, let's say, another 2 notes might result in a different choice. Same goes for certain intended phrasings.

    What you referred to as "Johnny Smith fingering" is something that I was taught by a teacher a couple of years ago and finally started working on it! It's in fact comfortable, but I think that only counts for the first pattern (G major up/down) and not for the other three. However there's another lesson within that fingering. Any structure we can play on two consecutive strings that will repeat in octaves can be played as follows: Start on the 6th string, move two frets up and repeat the exact same "geographical" structure from the 4th string, move up three frets and repeat from the 2nd string.

    I've now been working on "diagonal paths" for the first pattern (G major up/down) starting with any finger that'd make sense to me from the 6th, 5th and 4th string. So far I'd stick with the root position, but I'll explore the first and second inversion next. As far as I can see this will result in different fingerings for the first couple of notes of the structure, that can then often be directed to fingers you already know from different situations. I think this is going to get more complex with the other three examples though.

    Haha I know my picking is a bit weird. I'd mainly try to play on-beats with a down stroke, off-beats with an upstroke and sometimes break out of that system for the sake of phrasing or sound. I'll be adding some sweep picking too, let's see how that goes. In any case I don't believe one system will do for me.

    I can basically see the whole fretboard as "one pattern" for a given structure. However that doesn't mean I can move around fluently when things get fast. I think that's where fretboard organization ends and technical studies become necessary.

    Thanks, Ruckola, I'm curious about your eBook and I'll check it out soon! For myself I discovered I like the players that have a lot of Bach in their playing and therefore I'm trying to get deeply into triads and some other structures instead of modes. I respect the modal approach that many players take these days, but I just don't like listening to it as much. If you're into that kind of playing as well check out Austrian guitarist Karl Ratzer. He's my main influence when it comes to guitar these days:


  22. #21

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    Despite all the different approaches and Concepts..

    It seems like most Jazz Guitarists play similar lines to each other ..