-
This is from his book, "The Guitar," published in 1967.
"The guitar should be held in a vertical position so that you cannot see the finger board. Use the dots on the edge of the neck as position marks. When the guitar is held in a tilted position instead of a vertical position, it is impossible for the fingers of the left hand to exert the proper pressure on the finger board. The student desires to tilt the guitar to be able to see the frets, but in the long run this proves disadvantageous. You should be able to play the guitar and read music at the same time without looking at the frets. You should be able to feel where you are on the finger board without having to look at it. (Page 31)
Do you hold the guitar this way?
I don't. Perhaps I shall give it a try.
The Guitar: Barney Kessel: Amazon.com: Books
-
02-27-2018 03:27 PM
-
Barney is a fine model for lots of things.
Posture is not amongst them.
His spine is pretty much bent in an S shape whilst playing and his neck is visibly compressed at all times even when not playing. None of those things are a good idea to model.
D.
-
That may all be true but the subject is the "posture" of the guitar, not the player. Unless you are suggesting that one cannot hold the guitar the way he recommends without having bad posture????
Originally Posted by Freel
-
I tend to hold it at an angle. Not to see the frets, but to keep from pressing the guitar against my body. Some of them require being tilted, especially the 18" full-depth archtop. I can't comfortably hold it vertically. And I'm not about to change anything just because a dead man once said that I should. Nor even because a live man (or woman) says I should.
-
Yeah, Barney's advice about the posture of the guitar is good.
The way I hold it, I can still pretty much see the fretboard, but I'm really using the side dots for most of my reference. The real problem doesn't start until you're tipping so far towards yourself that it starts to bend your wrist too much...then that's bad.
-
Let me be clear, I think the advice is terrible, I don't think it is possible to hold the guitar well without good posture, I don't think it is a good idea to avoid looking at the fretboard and in fact I can see almost nothing that I would consider true in his advice. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
For a good example of how to play well and sight read maybe check out John Williams. What is most interesting is his lively and moving gaze, fixing the gaze on one place without being able to shift it is a real bad idea. All creatures follow their gaze, the eyes locate and the body follows, when the eyes fix the body stiffens and this has a load of knock on effects.
Anyway if you want to follow his advice do so, I urge you not to though.
D.
-
I have heard the advice from past flamenco teachers. I feel most comfortable playing in this posture, most of the time. I feel more connected to the guitar this way. The thinner the body, the more comfortable I am with this posture. On an electric, it doesn't matter whether or not the back resonates. On an acoustic, I tend to lean the guitar more. Not just to allow for more volume but also because it reduces the shoulder/back strain of holding a 17" archtop.
Freel, I admire your contrarian disposition, self-confidence, and commitment. Just had to add that.
-
I think playing and looking at the fretboard while playing slows you down. You should be able to shut your eyes and play a phrase, song, comp. if you know what you're doing. Originally Posted by Freel
Your ear can react faster without visual interruption....and anyway listening to what you sound like is what you need to do.
Visual information gets in the way. Maybe sometimes you need to "re-orient" but I think watching....slows down a lot of players.
Try playing scales or arpeggios, or whatever...do it in front of the TV and watch the TV, not your fingers....you might find your sense of movement, and ability to hear what you're playing is enhanced.
A lot of times your body will "figure out" little minutiae of movement, if you get out of the way...a bit. Sort of the "inner game of (tennis)(golf), etc." theory of "letting go".
-
Kessel is a benchmark, a standard bearer in jazz guitar. A player of known quality over decades in his career. Anything he says is worth pondering seriously. We are jazz players here, not classical players. We improvise on position as much as in performance. I'd always think Kessel's advice, or Joe Pass's, or Kenny Burrell's, or even man of the excellent players on this forum is worth weighing carefully rather than dismissing.
-
I'm curious which posture Kessel used when playing Swing and which he used when playing Bossa. If it's swing Kessel talking, I'm all ears. If it's bossa or pop Kessel, I welcome criticism. You see, your posture makes an incredible influence on the kind and quality of music you play.
-
Advice is good, maybe you just do not get it right. Originally Posted by Freel
It's that he practices only 1/2 of what he preaches. He's holding the guitar well, but is all bent around so he could see the frets.
-
Let's grant this. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Let's also grant that Kessel's advice in "The Guitar" is aimed toward a young (or at least fairly new) student, not to people who have been playing for decades.
Also, he gives a reason for holding the guitar vertically (rather than tilted) that no one has addressed: "When the guitar is held in a tilted position instead of a vertical position, it is impossible for the fingers of the left hand to exert the proper pressure on the finger board."
I don't know if that is true but it is what Kessel is claiming here. I suppose one would have to have played both ways in order to assess the difference, and perhaps appreciate its importance. (If there is not much difference, it might not be important, at least in this sense.)
-
[QUOTE=MarkRhodes;850984] You should be able to play the guitar and read music at the same time without looking at the frets. You should be able to feel where you are on the finger board without having to look at it.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. Just shouldin' all over himself.
My teacher as a kid was Joe Fava for a single long lesson. I drove over two hours each way just to be scolded over posture and position. He was right though.
-
I learned as a teenager that Kessel's approach is totally wrong from classical guitarists. Here's one argument from the perspective of finger pressure. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I later learned from flamenco guitarists that he was totally right.
I later learned from other flamenco guitarists that those first flamenco guitarists were totally wrong.
John Stowell is in the camp of the latter flamenco guitarists, whether he knows it or not.
-
Ideologies tend not to be helpful for a discussion where people are honestly looking for answers. People assign themselves a role as a member of some imagined camp or other. They then misrepresent the opinion of anyone they feel to be a member of a supposedly opposing camp. It is extremely tedious. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I learned as a teenager that Kessel's approach is totally wrong from classical guitarists. Here's one argument from the perspective of finger pressure.
I later learned from flamenco guitarists that he was totally right.
I later learned from other flamenco guitarists that those first flamenco guitarists were totally wrong.
John Stowell is in the camp of the latter flamenco guitarists, whether he knows it or not.
I disagree with Barney's advice on this, I have done the research. I may learn something tonight or tomorrow that might make my relationship with and control of my instrument more harmonious. That will be done guitar in hand using all of my senses and what little sense I have.
But I will not stand by idly by whilst poor advice is lionised.
Anyone trying to follow Barney's advice should do so with caution, it is easy to become prisoners to our beliefs and give more weight to another mans ideology than our own senses.
Things are true or useful or not. It is certainly true that lots of guitarists have bad posture, Barney is one of them, I do not think it helped him play better, quite the reverse is more likely true.
Copy the good things for your journey, don't be crippled by another mans baggage.
-
this ties in with a (fave) video about barneys guitar...he likes "pointer"/chickenhead knobs for vol & tone so he can feel without seeing
& of course there are those who stand!! haha
cheers
-
For what it's worth, Wes tilted the guitar way back.
I have played around with the Kessel notion here and there, because I think it's useful to be able to play without looking at the neck.
-
Freddie Green played with his guitar top almost straight up, and with insanely high action. Barney is simply wrong about it being impossible to exert the required pressure. It might be a little more difficult, but it's certainly not impossible. Even I can do it.
-
Yes, but look, his wrist is NOT bent way towards him. That's the important thing. Originally Posted by JazzinNY
-
I like this guy, he's saying all the right things. Starts at 3:10, about the posture and how to hold the guitar. IMO that's the most natural position with any hollowbody guitar.
-
As one of the busiest LA studio musicians of his era, working daily with other musicians of the highest caliber, including other renown guitarists, I would trust Barney's advice on how to hold the guitar to best facilitate sight reading music. These guys were reading new cues 8 hours a day, production work. Nail it and move on to the next music. I'm sure they had a consensus on what was most effective based on expert experience. These guys weren't a bunch of schmoes....
The OP only seemed to be Kessel addressing the guitar position. You can't sight read music AND look at the neck of your guitar. How? Last week I spent 2 hours reading through new charts with 16 other cats. When and how do you look at your guitar and the charts at the same time?
-
Read ahead and practice the skill of finding your place on the page after looking elsewhere, either the conductor or your hands or the neck of the guitar or whatever.
Like the radio on your car, look for a bit then eyes back on the road, looking as far ahead as possible.
-
You don't have commands for radio on the wheel? Originally Posted by Freel
Anyway, basically, it's the other way around. While performing, as much as possible, you you should keep head up, smile at audience, ask them for more money, communicate with the rest of the band and only occasionally, if necessary, visually check where you are on the instrument.
Personally, I do not smile, or read music ... I don't even play music ...
-
To be honest I seldom listen to the Radio anymore, I got tired of shoddy journalism, dog whistles and inane Vox Pop contributors with zero expertise attempting to contradict experts on points of fact about which they themselves were either completely ignorant or had been informed by the same radio station that had told them what to think the day before. Originally Posted by Vladan
Funny enough when I was playing concerts I always played everything from memory. I got into a row once for having a laugh with the audience as I polished a chipped nail at a concert before playing a solo piece during an intermission of a performance of the little guitar orchestra from my conservatory.
Heaven forbid music might be fun or advice and opprobrium balanced.
D.
-
You have all that variety? Wow! Strictly commercials on my radio.
All IMO ... like it could be not ...
Concert of conservatory guitar orchestra is hardly a kind of a gig I had in mind. Guess you can not ask audience for more money there.
Playing from score should not be part of pop music gig, I take Jazz is pop, but somehow seem to be accepted contemporary tradition in Jazz, to it's own misfortune, IMO. (Big bands and revial/ show orchestras are different story, scores are OK for that environment)
Maybe not part of conservatory guitar course, from the days when I first encountered guitar playing, being able to play without looking, eyes closed, was considered very important skill. For one, stage can be one extremely poorly illuminated place where you can not see the neck even if you try.
Guess it's not an issue at conservatory concert places, but at night clubs it surely can happen, better said, used to happen very often at times when I was somewhat active "musician". Should I have mastered the skill, maybe I'd play more gigs?
Reply With Quote
Just Friends -- or keeping things simple
Today, 12:04 AM in Improvisation