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I can play blindfolded, I memorise when I think it is worthwhile, I can play in a pit with a band on electric and see only the score, I can play a solo with one had whilst downing a litre of cider without dropping a note. Parlour tricks don't impress me, they are easy. Playing well is much more interesting and challenging.
Originally Posted by Vladan
The skill that I found hardest to master when I was more active was listening to other peoples drivel.
Even when I was teaching I would have exchanges like this.
'You need to learn some chords'
'I know all these chords'
'You are only playing two notes, it's not enough to learn how music works'
'You play classical guitar, I am an electric guitarist, this is how it is done on electric.'
The 'argument from authority', he had read something in a magazine so he knew best, even though he knew almost nothing.
And then what ? People cant be told they are being stupid they need to find out for themselves.
But there is always some book or new 'course' or slow mo video or dogmatic particle of poorly thought through advice or some self appointed 'expert' with zero skill feeding them drivel that makes them feel smarter than people who actually know what they are talking about.
D.
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02-28-2018 09:20 AM
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Here I agree, almost. In fact, skill level is not always good indicator of how valid the advice is. There are plenty sellers who use their apparent skill in one thing to sell some other thing, rather similar, from the same niche, but at least one step removed. Originally Posted by Freel
Further, people often misinterpret cause - consequence relationship, if they even come to think about it. I know, happens to me.
With YouTube and alike, it's kind of hypnotic experience. Sometimes in spite thinking "what utter bullshit", I can not stop watching/ listening.
Many people will interpret that inability to stop that what they watched had some sense and value ... "... this was great, I could not stop watching it ...",
!!! Wake up!!! You could not stop watching it because it was such enormous piece of crap!!!
In any case, weather I am aware of above, or not, he scored on "watched time" and "served advertisements".
Promise after promise, ... you will learn ... you will be able to ...., just like I can, see the example (presenter does it really well) ... sometimes they tell you exactly what is being done, not a big deal since you could already see it for your self in the video, but they do not tell how to do it, even if they could tell, because most of the time it's in painstakingly practicing and rehearsing long time established basics. However, people go "... WOW, he told us exactly what he did ...". Crazy.
And so on.
Yeah.
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When he said vertical did he really mean the headstock straight up like Paul Galbraith? Or did he mean the body of the guitar should be straight up while in your lap, as opposed to being tilted back into your body like others discuss here (ala Freddie Green). Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
The reason I ask is because Verticle vs. Titled headstock (all other things being equal) doesn't allow you to see the fretboard OR the fret markers very well.
It sounds to me like Barney was using terms that people use when referring to two topics of basic guitar holding (1) angle of the neck and (2) position in the lap. He may have only been referring to topic (2).
And:
1. Paul Galbraith holds the guitar vertically AND titled back - so that he can see the fretboard!
2. I never saw Kessel hold the guitar with the headstock pointing straight up at the sky, neither in person twice, or on film. In fact, he held the neck pretty straight (toward horizontal) as opposed to very angled (toward vertical).
Just sayin'Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 02-28-2018 at 11:06 AM.
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Just get a big belly. Flat on round gentlemen. Problem solved.
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Just because you hold the guitar tilted, it doesn't mean you have to look at the fretboard. The angle of the guitar really has nothing to do with whether you look at the fretboard. It may be worthwhile to try to get brand new students who have never played at all to hold the guitar in a certain way, but for experienced players it's inane. And from what little I saw in the OP, brand new students were what Barney was addressing.
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Show me a player who holds the guitar like Freddie or Wes who doesn't/didn't look at the fretboard a lot. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Those of us with, uh, naturally occurring ventrally mounted adipose aerodynamic enhancement devices sacrifice a degree of flatness with respect to fretboard perspective in exchange for the sleekness these anatomic features afford ...
John
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You took the words right outta my mouth, John. ;o) Originally Posted by John A.
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Barney Kessel looked at the fretboard a lot. Easy to see on countless videos. Tilt causing the player to look at the fretboard is a red herring. Whether one sees the frets or only the dots on the edge makes no difference, IMO.
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I would love to hear you play. While we've had our clashes here, you sound very knowledgable and experienced, and I'd probably learn much and enjoy very much hearing you play. Can you direct us to any clips of your music? Originally Posted by Freel
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I think Jim Hall often didn't just look at the fretboard, he kind of stared at it like he was boring a hole through it. I think the looking/not looking thing is more a matter of temperament, though I would definitely agree that for sight-reading, or even intensive work with familiar charts that are complex, keeping ones eyes on the chart and being comfortable navigating the fingerboard by feel would be very helpful. Originally Posted by sgosnell
I confess I developed the habit of staring at the fretboard because when I was young, I was terribly shy and I couldn't look at people while I was playing. It unnerved me, so i just cultivated the "I'm so into the music, I'm in another world" look, which didn't really fool anyone.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
I don't think Barney was looking at the fretboard a lot when sight reading in the studio.
Part of his teaching in "On Guitar" involves playing from sheet music, so one has to be able to play from a score without watching one's hands. (And at this stage, one would not be an adept sight reader OR guitar player, so separating the two tasks as much as possible might work with many students.)
When he was performing / improvising, there was no score to read from, so that was not an issue. Also, on stage, there are house lights that may trouble sensitive eyes. (People on stage can't see much of the audience for the glare of spotlights.) One reason to look TOWARD the guitar (or toward some thing) while playing is that it may help you avoid being distracted by any OTHER thing. We've all had the experience of being asked, "What are you staring at?" when we weren't staring at any thing, yet our gaze--while pondering something, for example---appeared fixed and intent to others.
That said, I don't think some tilt is a bad thing.
I also think most players holding the guitar more vertical than horizontal is not a bad thing either.
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While we're on this, the one position I find I just can't play well in is the traditional folk/pop sitting position with the guitar on the right thigh. I just can't make that work, never have. I am not a classical player, but I always preferred either the classical position with the guitar on the left thigh, elevated, or hanging from a strap, which is slightly inboard from the left-thigh position. I also prefer the neck angled upward, more like the classical, than the parallel-to-the-floor angle you see very often.
Sometimes I think it also has to do with how our joints articulate. Some people have extraordinarily wide range of motion in their wrists, others don't. I'm one of the others--could never do BB King vibrato from the wrist, for example. So the guitar more on the centerline of the body or slightly left, with the neck elevated a bit, is way easier for me than the "cowboy" position on the right thigh, neck level.
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I checked him out and he’s very good, actually. I’ll leave it up to him to decide if it’s worth his time to prove himself to be permitted to express an opinion. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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it's not about proving oneself of being permitted to have an opinion. You misinterpreted me. I said that my own feeling is that I want to know how someone plays when I listen to their opinion about it. They can do anything they want, fine with me. I'm just giving my own opinion, which is worth even less than what you paid for it. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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On this picture he is more vertical and most definitely he does not stare at guitar neck: Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Jim Hall's back problems later in life should be a definite deterrent to anyone contemplating copying his posture. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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My posture role model is Gilad Hekselman. Great upright posture, arms free to do their jobs. No stress...
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From the first page. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
'What is most interesting is his lively and moving gaze, fixing the gaze on one place without being able to shift it is a real bad idea. All creatures follow their gaze, the eyes locate and the body follows, when the eyes fix the body stiffens and this has a load of knock on effects.
The level of debate here is depressing so I am not going to be posting any more. I introduced myself to the foro with a video, anyone too lazy to find it but not too lazy to trash talk isn't worth addressing. I won't be wasting my time trying to explain anything here any more and I certainly won't be producing videos to elucidate points, that's like pandering the drunk at a party who says 'tell me a joke then' you know they are too invested in trumpeting their ignorance to ever get over themselves.
D.
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I've seen no videos of Kessel reading in the studio, but I doubt he was looking at the fretboard much. I didn't mean to imply that he needed to look at it, just saying that in videos I've seen of him playing in a concert setting, he did. I don't think it's a bad thing, we have to look at something, or nothing, or close our eyes. Having to look at the fretboard marker inlays to see where every note is, should be avoided, and that's something that mostly beginners need to do. And that's what Kessel was addressing, I think - beginners. Which we all were, once upon a time.
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The classical guitar posture that has been posted here fixed my hand and wrist pain. I learned from a Suzuki method teacher named Mary Lou Roberts in Ann Arbor. It was all about finding the most natural and relaxed position and using the weight of your arm instead of brute strength. It looks weird to play jazz on an archtop that way, but hey, I have sensation in my fingertips again! More recently, I had a lesson with Pat Martino and I asked him if he had any advice on posture and holding the pick and so on, and I was surprised that he said, no. He said he leaves that to the individual player as part of what gives us all a unique sound and expressiveness. So, I'm glad I learned a sort of rigid classical posture because it helped my pain, but then I was profoundly influenced by Pat's joyful and philosophical approach to the instrument, which might have prevented me from getting a lot of pain to start with because I was always trying to force it.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
Well Freddie didn't play everything.
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I hope that's a promise. Originally Posted by Freel
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Speaking of “getting over themselves”, you might be misinterpreting the point of a forum, which is discussion and not listening to only your opinion and then closing the thread. Also if you think there is trash talk in this thread then don’t venture to other threads because this has all seemed fairly amicable and if you read too many opinions other than your own then you might end up so depressed that you won’t be able to post any more. Originally Posted by Freel
There is no one right answer here. If we all played in a classical position this would be simpler but still not immediately put to rest because even though they have a more standardized approach to still see variations and when you get to jazz guitar on the right leg, classical on the left, standing up with a strap etc. there are way too many good players to say what is best and it depends largely on how you play and your own body type. What works for a skinny guy is probably not going to able to work exactly for a heavier guy. Freddie Green is not going to hold his guitar vertical because he needs to project and let the back vibrate but others want the guitar sitting vertically so that it is flat on their leg and sits more comfortably. The best thing is to try to talk to others, find people with technique you can trust and try to emulate it unless you have a teacher you trust and then take their advice. I do think that you can look at different postures and see how they work for different styles because the guys with a vertical guitar usually are the good readers. I taught myself through a lot of reading and I keep my guitar upright. I suggest that to students as well, with some variance depending on their body type.
And just because the guitar is upright and you can’t see the fretboard doesn’t mean you can glance at the neck and get all of the visual information you need that way. All you need to see is the side of the neck - after enough playing most people know what string they are pressing down and the side of the neck helps with large position shifts if you need it. This is also extremely useful and important to me because it creates the same thing as if I am standing - you won’t be looking at the fretboard standing up unless you are craning your neck or bending over or pulling the guitar back.
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