The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Arrange the 120 Right hand exercises by Giulliani for pick style. That should cover it!

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  3. #52

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    He probably was mainly trying to get the point across that in order to play fast bebop, sax type arpeggio lines you have to sweep pick. Its impossible to alternate pick fast arps at the speed a sax or piano player can play them, for example. Every player who alternate picks also uses sweep picking atleast on ascending arps at high speed, its just not possible otherwise. The best example of this is every metal guitarist ever. They use strict alternate picking on most things, but use "economy" or "sweep" for insanely fast arpeggios.

    Many times I have seen Jimmy discourage people from copying his picking if they already have something that works then going on to give examples of great guitarists that use different techniques. I think this was probably a case of him doing a bad job explaining what he meant.

  4. #53
    i'm with jzucker. economy always feels a bit floaty for me, and sounds the same way. i spent ages trying all sorts out, economy, legato etc, but eventually just accepted i alternate pick everything. I'm not saying it's the only way, or the best way, but for me, i have to accept that it's what i do. presuure on, push comes to shove, i'm gonna pick everything, really loud. since i accepted it, my playing (or confidence in my playing?) shot up.
    my advice to students, if their technique is not yet formed, is to think of the sound you want, then base your technique around that. If your technique is already well formed, then i think you have to stick with it and accept it, and work with that. i Know this is not everyone's solution and that you'll shoot me down for it, but.... gotta put it out there

  5. #54

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    Not like I practice what I preach, but it's best to learn both alternate and economy picking. There are certainly benefits to each method when tackling different situations. I've watched Bruno's DVD and what he says makes sense if you want to go through the trouble of learning, from scratch, a different technique. I tried it, it wasn't working for me so I ditched it.

    Also, playing fast doesn't make you a pro. If you're interested in fast, get into some gypsy jazz technique. Those folks are about as fast and accurate a guitar player you'll ever see without the need to hide behind effects to cover up nuances.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Who hides behind effects to cover up nuances?
    Well I'm not talking about Jazz guitarists here. I'm talking all your metal, tapping, shredding folks. They can't pull some of that (probably most of that) stuff off clean. Besides maybe the Al Di Meola gang, I can't think of more faster/cleaner/melodic players than the gypsy jazz players like Django and the Rosenbergs.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    From the clip posted looks like he does a heavy downward slant and when he switches strings he hits that string with a downstroke first, like they do in gypsy picking. I would take a guess he is also using mostly rest strokes on the down stroke.

    Joe Pass said he always used a downstroke when changing strings, regardless of string direction. He thought it gave lines more definition. He also used a lot of hammers and slurs, so he wasn't picking everything.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo27
    How come? If a measure has four quarter notes and a player who claims to use alternate picking, literally, plays all four notes with down strokes, because they're strong beats... see? It isn't literally alternate picking, is it?

    KJ
    Of course not...

    Well when I said "strong beats", I think that implies subdivisions of at least 8th notes, which yield strong and weak beats, note choice-wise too (guess I was sort of thinking in terms of bop).

    alternate = up, down ad infinitum...

  9. #58
    I think most people can not play strict alternate picking in any tempo relaxed, so then we have to find other methods to get the tones out of the guitar.

    There are some that seem to have the genetics to do it, like Benson or Martino, I've even had students who was not very advanced, but still had a really nice, relaxed alternate picking. It just falls natural for some.

    For me it don't, so I've had to explore many of the other options. One method I like when doing runs on three tones per string is to play pick pick hammer-on, it helps hold the arm relaxed, and I like the sound of it.

  10. #59

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    Hey Matt,
    What Jimmy Bruno says in his video is misrepresented here. I have his lesson on sweep picking and he remarks that if you try to use all down strokes you will never acquire the speed to play sax solos etc. He is more to the point of showing technique such as how to hold the pick to strike the strings on the bottom of the point on down strokes and the upper side on up strokes. He also shows not to use the wrist but to use the elbow and keep the wrist straight. He shows several picking patterns and then mentions he has a lesson book with dozens of picking patterns a student should check out. He shows how to use different patterns for eighth notes and triplets etc. So like most guitarists he has a variety of patterns to get the technique to get his sound. Check out Frank Vignola. He is a buzz saw who uses many picking styles.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by MortenFaerestrand
    I think most people can not play strict alternate picking in any tempo relaxed, so then we have to find other methods to get the tones out of the guitar.

    There are some that seem to have the genetics to do it, like Benson or Martino, I've even had students who was not very advanced, but still had a really nice, relaxed alternate picking. It just falls natural for some.

    For me it don't, so I've had to explore many of the other options. One method I like when doing runs on three tones per string is to play pick pick hammer-on, it helps hold the arm relaxed, and I like the sound of it.
    Years ago I devoted quite a bit of dedicated practice to alternate picking, then some to economy picking as well, so now I rarely think about it - I think I just instinctively am going for whatever is appropriate for the sound I want at any given second.

    BTW - I checked out your YouTube channel - very fine playing!

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit59
    Years ago I devoted quite a bit of dedicated practice to alternate picking, then some to economy picking as well, so now I rarely think about it - I think I just instinctively am going for whatever is appropriate for the sound I want at any given second.

    BTW - I checked out your YouTube channel - very fine playing!
    I've spent som much time and been so frustrated with my right hand technique that it is rediculous, and still to this day I'm extremely focused on it when I practice (depending on what I practice of course) so that I won't have to think about it when I perform, and I manage to play the ideas that I have.. It's a constant struggle! haha! (I'm actually writing this when taking a break from practicing different paradiddle patterns on the guitar, with almost all of the focus one where to put the up/down strokes!)

    That said, I'm pretty happy with my technique these days, some of the changes I've done the last year has worked out really well

    I'm glad you like my playing, thank you for saying so!:-)

  13. #62

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    Another player who uses this definition of alternate picking - Steve Morse. That guy can alternate pick anything.

  14. #63

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    Not to nitpick or get into this whole semantical thing, but the only definition of alternate picking I have ever heard is down on downbeats, up on upbeats. I have never heard of the idea of simply always going down up regardless of the rhythm.

    My understanding has been that the whole point of (my definition of) alternate picking was to provide a strong rhythmic foundation. You really feel the downbeat, you really feel the upbeat.

    This is for the most part how I've always played, though when I was learning some specific horn solos I got into more sweeping and slur-oriented stuff.

    I think it's actually pretty limiting for speed, but it makes things much tighter and more precise.

  15. #64

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    Music is not relegated to perfect subdivisions of the beat. Think of playing quintuplets, septuplets, etc. How are you going to play those with "proper" 8th notes. Alternate picking as studied with Martino , Sandole, Smith, etc., has been around for over 60 years. Your understanding of it is ok as a sub-categorization of the concept but to keep insisting that it's the mainstay of this technique if incorrect IMO.

  16. #65

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    nope morse strictly alternates for the most part as does ellis. Cross picking is strictly alternate too. But once again, nobody just alternates strictly like a robot. Anyway, no offense but this is a silly discussion IMO so I'm going to bow out.

    -Later

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Morse has said in interviews, verbatim, he picks down on a downbeat, up on an upbeat. What he does when he gets to crazy rhythms I don't know - he doesn't play that many crazy rhythms.
    don't know about that but I studied with his teacher at the University of Miami and played several picking etudes that morse wrote which were strictly alternate.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Also Jack I know you said you're done with this discussion, but a more practical question:

    Are you really saying that if you have a line that goes

    1+2+3 4+|1+2+3

    That alternate picking means you do an upstroke on beat 4 of measure one? THAT seems crazy to me.
    Depends on the tempo. Technically beat 4 is no different than the "and" of an 8th note in terms of jazz phrasing.

  19. #68

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    Kojo

    First of all, I disagree about Lage. He definitely does some consecutive downs and ups and he does so with impeccable time, dynamic, etc. I'm taking a lesson with him in a few weeks, so I'll let you know what he says about these issues!

    Second, while I don't share your enthusiasm for this definition of alternate picking, I am a little confused about Jack Zuckers definition.

    Jack, expanding on a question I asked earlier:

    If you have this rhythm, (let's just say all one string, and Q=220) how would you pick it?



    1+ + +4 |1TL2TL3 4

    With 1TL meaning 8th note triplets starting on beat 1

    I would probably pick it like this

    DU U UD |DUDUDUD D
    1+ + +4 |1TL2TL3 4

    but within your strict definition of alternate picking it would be

    DU D UD |UDUDUDU D
    1+ + +4 |1TL2TL3 4

    even if that's the definition of alternate picking, does anybody actually play that way? Would you play that rhythm with those strokes?


  20. #69

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    Wanted to add, if that passage were in "Mel Bay's Modern Method for Guitar" it would be stroked (hah) like this:

    DU D UD |DUDDUDD D
    1+ + +4 |1TL2TL3 4

    interesting eh?

    For another take on 'alternate' picking, I took a lesson with a guy who was really into bulgarian music. A lot of that stuff is in 7 or some other odd grouping. The traditional way that those guys play that stuff is to do down on the down beats and up on the upbeats. So there often would actually be two downs in a row - one at the end of the measure or phrase and one at the beginning. 7, for example: DUDUDUD|DUDUDUD

    He claimed that without these strokes the phrasing for this type of music just doesn't come through.

    (edit: i finished this post before your last one came through)

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i do it all the time Jake and so does martino, benson, etc. If the tempo is above 220 it becomes very hard to do consecutive upstrokes. Try it at 250 or 300 and you'll see...
    At 300 I don't have a problem picking upstrokes at that speed, but at that tempo I can only feel so many consecutive upbeats at a time. One measure is fine, but two measures is too long for my hearing, currently. That's a hearing issue for me, not a technique issue. If there's at least one downbeat in there I can do it. With this one measure rhythm: 1+ + + + , repeating is possible for me to do at 300 with DUUUU. I believe in the video I played that rhythm a bit but it was probably more like 250, maybe more.

    At 300 bpm, 8th note upbeats are happening at a rate of 300 per minute, but they have the same length as quarter notes. So it's like playing all 8ths with upstrokes at 150, or 16ths at 75. That's not very difficult, I'm sure not for you. I think the challenge there for anybody to do two or more measures of upbeats at 300 is probably more the hearing than the technique. Do I have the math right here?

    Not that it really matters...but I'm skeptical of the claim that this is how Martino or Benson would tackle this rhythm. I'll accept that in some circles (maybe down south?) alternate picking is defined how you are defined it. But honestly, and really no offense intended, I'd be really really surprised if Benson or Martino - or Joe Pass or Herb Ellis - would use those 'purely alternating' strokes you describe. I know your response might just be "it's how they do it, you're wrong" but is there any decent video or ANY source we can both see that shows either of these guys playing a more syncopated rhythm so we can actually look at their right hands? It seems like when either of these cats does something more syncopated, with triplets etc, there's heavy use of economy or sweeps involved, not pure alternation.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    jake at 300bpm, 8th notes are happening at 600bpm.
    8th notes are. But we're not talking about all 8th notes. We're talking about just playing upbeats. The upbeats alone are recurring at a rate of 300 bpm, not 600. I just posted a clip, I can share it if you like, but I'm only visually relating the math I just explained here.

  23. #72

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  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    jake, you're missing almost every other beat on that and you're turning the time around.
    Nope. You're misunderstanding.

    I demonstrate two things:

    One is this rhythm: 1 + + + +

    I'm playing it in time.

    Then at 1:04 I'm playing all upstrokes and I am intentionally playing on the downbeats to demonstrate that it's not the pick speed that's the problem, I admit that I can't hear consecutive upbeats (with no downbeat) at that tempo so I don't bother trying to play all consecutive upbeats.

    Make sense?

    First I demonstrate a rhythm that is mostly 8th note upbeats with one downbeat thrown in (beat 1.)

    Then I am playing all quarter note down beats (with the metronome set as a half note) and I do it with upstrokes.

    Make sense? We on the same page?

  25. #74

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    Well, shoot, I don't know, sounds pretty locked in to me. Can you demonstrate the same figure with your technique?

    at 1:34 - 1:41 (on the previous video) are you really telling me I don't sound like I'm playing downbeats with the metronome?

    Anybody else have any opinions on this?

    Look, I've really, really, let my ego get the best of me on this one and I'll admit it. I do a lot of work with the metronome, and I'd really be surprised if this isn't "in." I really, really should just let it go though because I don't even know what we're talking about it anymore. But I'm going to be really surprised if other posters here think I have bad time on these clips, and that I'm not locked in to the beat.

    Anyway, LAST clip, and if this isn't good enough, then well back to the shed for me:

    Here I play the rhythm (1+ + + +) at a bunch of different tempos. I totally lose it at 330, but everything else feels pretty good to me. At the end I try some longer strings of upbeats at 300, and that wasn't all that great, but the rest seems pretty much in time...



    And again, I am NOT advocating that this is the best way to do things, this just happens to be the way I've been "trained" to play a rhythm like this.

  26. #75

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    Sorry to jump in late... but what is the end or goal of your picking discussion...Playing music right... jake your picking looks cool... but at the tempo of your videos... sounds like your not close to being able to play, buy that I mean your able to hang on with the tempo with your right hand... barely. But actual playing....phrasing with dynamics and articulations... I'm not trying to get on your shit... I wonder how many players could hang at that tempo... anyway I have no problem at that tempo, don't need to think,(about my picking) just play what I hear. My point is if your simply playing for enjoyment, cover what you like etc... most guitarist never really ever get their technique together... with any picking style... Get something together to the point where you can cover... and continue to practice all the different picking methods.
    What do you do when reading a chart at that tempo... with cool rhythmic lines... I had to read through this Victor Feldman tune called "Joshua", the other night. Way cool tune, at around 280, and the arrangement, well the tune has a 3/4 section, but anyway the section were reversed, tune was in 3/4 and the usual 3/4 sections were in 4/4 with dotted quarters from 3/4 equal to the half notes from the 4/4 sections... nice feel...very common modern rhythmic use nowadays. Anyway if I had to think about my picking...well I was already smelling fumes. Lets write or play an existing line that uses more than steady scale type movement and see how many ways we can pick... I'll gladly write something quick... but might be over the top. There's a simple tune called "Ambleside" by John Taylor, I think it's in the Sher European Real Book. It's not to difficult and uses arpeggios and some 4/3 figures... The tune is very difficult to solo over, but that's a different subject. Or pick a Brecker tune or Christian McBride's "In A Hurry".... burnin easy tune... just an Idea... At the tempos we're talkin about, I would guess were in the advance group of players, but that is probable good for examples, just may be beyond most players technique level.... Best Reg
    Last edited by Reg; 05-17-2011 at 11:20 AM.