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I thought Adam Rogers did a LOT of economy picking, no? That's what it looks like on video.
But anyway, duh, a lot of pro players alternate pick. There's this guy Greg Duncan that plays here in Boston, he alternate picks EVERYTHING and I've seen him live many times, many times pushing way past the 300 mark, maybe 350.
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02-22-2018 03:19 AM
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yes, most pro players including benson and martino occasionally use economy picking but the majority of their playing is alternate. IMO, economy picking's biggest weakness is a lack of strong swing feel due to the slightly timeless nature of directional picking.
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To be clear here, I think that Rogers and Benson use mostly some sort of economy or other non-alternate picking, no? Correct me if I'm wrong?
As for DiMeola I think he doesn't even alternate everything. There's a youtube lesson with him talking about how for certain arpeggios it makes much more sense to do consecutive down or up strokes.
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I think there are some pretty extreme and significant advantages and disadvantages to all picking styles, so I guess the sound should be the guide. When you look at pros who use alternate or mostly slurs or mostly economy picking you get camps of players who all sound quite different from each other, but they all have big fan bases as well as people who dislike their playing.
I guess off the top of my head I'm thinking of guys like Martino, Kreisberg, Dimeola and McLaughlin vs guys like Rosenwinkel, Mike Moreno, Metheny, Jim Hall, Tal Farlow. The former being players who mostly alternate pick and the latter being players who do more a combination of economy picking and slurs, as well as some alternating for sure. Definitely a different tone and time feel, I'm definitely not going to be one to say that one approach is better than the other.
The way I see it, you can get much stronger, rhythmically, with alt picking, but you may be more inclined to be more conservative and straight forward with rhythms, as opposed to mixing in triplets and odd groupings. Eco picking doesn't seem to have that same drive but opens up a player for more rhythmic fluidity. I was figuring out some Joe Henderson solos a while back and a lot of those arpeggios really require eco picking and sweeping. Some rhythms that horn players play are crazy...I don't know if alternate picking some of that stuff is even possible just because it's hard to apply the rules of alternate picking to a passage that mixes triplets, sixteenth note up beats, etc.
Alt picking even slightly more syncopated rhythms introduces some funny problems. For example, say you have a line that's mostly 8th notes but in the middle is one group of three eighth note triplets. If you were faithfully alternate picking the whole package then after those three eighth note triplets the direction of your picking will be reversed and you'll be playing upstrokes on downbeats.
Obviously there are simple solutions to this problem, but they involve breaking from strict alternate picking.
Of course, economy picking makes playing consecutive large intervals easier, and I think that's part of the appeal to modern players.
Julian Lage is an absolute monster...he probably has more versatile technique and better time than any guitarist I have ever heard...he economy picks plenty of stuff, and I have no idea how he does it with such great time and rhythmic punch. Hell, Mike Moreno as well...absolutely insane technique, mostly eco I believe.
As for me, I alternate pick most things as it's what I'm used to. Economy picking is too much of a head ache for me. I'll do some sweeps for triplets and arpeggios, a slur here or there to make things easier and smoother. I also think I prefer that driving, consistent sound rather than the wishy-washy thing that most economy pickers get. Of course, I'm sure you can practice eco picking to get it more rhythmically driving just as you can practice alt picking to get it more rhythmically versatile and applicable to wider interval leaps. Right now I'm more at a stage of expanding the alt picking rather than taking baby steps with eco picking. But I can sweep some nice stuff on a good day!
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jake, metheny and hall use mostly alternate picking as do benson and rogers though as some have pointed out, rogers uses a lot of economy picking. Most everyone does on jazz arpeggios. Disagree all you want.
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Rogers quite often will economy pick even when playing step-wise, ascending 3 nps stuff.
Check out his right hand on this quick little run from 1:02 to 1:05 - he's continuing his downstrokes when moving to adjacent strings during the ascending part:
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But that would happen with virtually any syncopated rhythm.
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I'm confused. Apparently, I'm not familiar with the terminology. Are these "alt picking" players strictly alternating without regard to the portion of the beat a note occupies? I always assumed that the strength of alternate picking was that you consistently played stronger parts of the beat with downstrokes (or sometimes upstrokes?) when playing a syncopated rhythm, providing that stronger "groove" that people say is lacking in economy picking.
I know that a lot of bluegrass players, for example, play eighth note runs with downstrokes on the beat and upstrokes on the "and" of the beat. Don't funk and rock players do this too (sometimes with sixteenths of course)? If this isn't alternate picking what do you call it? Is this some third category?Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 05-10-2011 at 08:56 AM. Reason: clarity
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Matt,
Yes you have misinterpreted. We agree on the definition of alt picking - downstrokes on downbeats, upstrokes on upbeats.
The problem I was outlining with my specific rhythmic example is that in some circumstances there are more options present than a downbeat and an upbeat.
Alt picking consists of a down and an up - two parts. That's great when the notes are either on 1, 2, 3, 4 or any of the &s. There's a binary system set up there.
However, triplets have three parts, and of course quintuplets have five parts, etc.
If you even have consistent triplets for a measure or so, to strictly alternate pick them is, by the definition above, somewhat impossible. For example, say you have 8th note triplets starting on beat 2 and continuing for a measure or two. If you start picking with a downstroke, then beats 1 and 3 are going to get upstrokes. If you start picking with an upstroke, then beats 2 and 4 will get upstrokes.
I mean, first thoughts are that we can do one of two things:
1. Expand our definition of alternate picking so that the pulse/downbeat doesn't always have to get a downstroke.
2. Expand our definition of alternate picking so that you may sometimes get consecutive downs or consecutive ups in order to fulfill the requirement that all strong beats/downbeats get downstrokes.
Either one is totally fine for me. In an actual playing context this example shouldn't be problematic at all. However I'm only mentioning it to get back to the first example I gave:
If you have all 8ths except one group of triplets within the line, then you either have to slur a note or concede to #1 or #2 above. Does that make sense?
So ok, so far, this isn't a big deal at all. Either you 'reverse' the picking for the remainder of the line after the triplets, or you slur a note, or you simply on one occasion in the line do two consecutive downstrokes or two consecutive upstrokes.
This is fine, no real problem playing wise.
The problem is when this small example gets more complicated. If you have 8th note triplets, 16th note upbeats, 8th notes, etc, a real wonky line that mixes a lot of different types of rhythms, trying to even conceive of how to logically apply any alternate picking rules to that line seems like a waste of time to me. There may be no clear downbeat or strong pulse within the line itself That fact coupled with the lack of a presence of any sort of yes/no/yes/no (down/up/down/up, strong/weak/strong/weak) binary logic to the line means that we have to find some other way to pick it
What the f*** is my point? Extreme rhythmic dexterity is not only better suited to picking that is mostly not-alternate, but it can actually be impossible to try to apply alternate picking logic to some of these lines.
No problem if we're playing Pat Martino solos, but problematic if we're trying to cop from a lot of other instruments and players that have a sophisticated rhythmic vocabulary.
Just my $.02.
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No Jake,
You're wrong. In fact, in studying with Sandole and Martino one of the most important criteria was to make the upstroke and downstroke sound identical so that the rhythmic placement of the 8th note didn't need to be played by a specific stroke. And one of the "patented" martino exercises is to play the diminished scale with 3 notes per string but accenting every 3rd note USING ALTERNATE PICKING. This means that the accents are falling alternately on upstroke / downstroke .
Alternate picking is alternating up and downstrokes, regardless of the rhythmic pattern of the music. It would be silly to play a series of notes with continual upstrokes if they happened to be falling on upbeats. *HOWEVER*, you should be able to do that if you practice everything with every possible picking pattern.
Note - There is nothing wrong with being a primarily alternate picker but using economy picking or other types of techniques. But the definition of alternate is binary. Down/Up/Down/Up or Up/Down/Up/Down, etc.
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That's not how I've learned it, but that's ok. Since this is guitar playing and not astrophysics, there can be more than one definition of something. Originally Posted by jzucker
I actually think there are huge advantages to this specific definition of alt picking - for swing feel with a lot of 8th notes, it's easy to get a very consistent rhythm going to always be down on down, up on up. But, as I thin you agree, it's not best for everything.
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Where your definition of alternate fails I think is when there are multiple upbeat accents in a row and faster tempos. It becomes difficult to do multiple, consecutive upstrokes to keep up. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
The goal with alternate picking is to be able to make the upstroke indistinguishable from the downstroke. *THEN* you can control where your accents are played.
I'd advise practicing the pat martino line using up/down, down/up, etc.
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Well, whatever picking method is chosen, I gotta agree with RichB that time is the most important element. Whatever the method is, the player has to put in serious hours (and in a sense, research) towards getting the time and feel exactly as they want. It is definitely the most overlooked element, imo.
I like the "down on downs" method for the sound I usually go for. There is some economy stuff I should shed...but that stuff is too much of a headache for me. Too weird to think of each individual note as having a stroke based on the direction of the string-changing rather than the rhythm. I can do it at slower tempos but can't burn coherantly that way. I guess it's all about what you're used to.
Hybrid picking is pretty cool too but I bite my nails too much and then can't get a strong tone. Bummer.
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Ok so I read through...around 220, in 2 so more like 16th notes...straight 8ths feel... could pick a number of ways.... now if there were phrasing and articulations added, I would know how you want played and would greatly influence my picking. Originally Posted by jzucker
Where your definition of alternate fails I think is when there are multiple upbeat accents in a row and faster tempos. It becomes difficult to do multiple, consecutive upstrokes to keep up.
The goal with alternate picking is to be able to make the upstroke indistinguishable from the downstroke. *THEN* you can control where your accents are played.
I'd advise practicing the pat martino line using up/down, down/up, etc.
I don't think about picking patterns... I think about how I want what ever I'm playing to sound like. To me you need to be able to cover all possible methods or at least a few, enough to phrase and cover articulations. But I guess were talking about practice... I would work on getting to that point ware you don't need to think about which direction your pick is going on attack... like I said you should be thinking about what you want what your playing to sound like. As Jack mentioned, should be able to accent... or not accent... in both directions. Best Reg
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Originally Posted by gingerjazz
You may have misunderstood. I never said that. I said it would be very difficult and it was for me at least , to play Parker or Coltrane or Oscar type lines with alt picking.
Gotta love this, some guy mis quotes me and the a lot of you take it as fact and go off.
Anyone can be a pro player. It is certainly not determined by how one picks but what notes you choose.
jb
If you have been playing for a long time I don't recommend switching picking technique. To each his own. I only teach what "I DO" If you want to try it out go for itLast edited by jimmyb; 05-11-2011 at 10:46 AM.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
It was not a throw away. I never said that. In another topic I do say that if you can't devote 6 to 8 hours a day you won't become a pro. Just my opinion
as far as picking, here's my whole method.
When going to a higher string it is always a 'down' If you are going to a lower string it is always an 'up'
I don't change the picking because of a line or the style of musicLast edited by jimmyb; 05-11-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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I wonder how he got that out of it? But he is a good guy, Jimmy, I know he's not trying to start things up.
As for the 6-8 hours a day, I agree. It has to be your job if you're a pro.
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I think Barney Kessel once said he practiced five hours every day for his entire career. Makes sense to me. Originally Posted by jimmyb
Jimmy, "Art Of Picking" is a favorite of mine. If you haven't seen it folks, it's great. The approach is really helpful.
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Me too. And he probably had a gig or a session most days too...There's his 6-8 hours (if not more!) Originally Posted by paynow
Playing live in front of people is practice, really...
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I can accept that but it's the others that assume this was true and for whatever reasons decided that's what I said and took it as gospel . That's why I don't post much because of guys that do that type thing Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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More on being a pro.
Since I started playing jazz exclusively I have never solicited a gig, a mag article or students. People call me because they like my playing and/or teaching. I can't control what the media says about me. It's the nature of the beast.
If you are really as good as one thinks they are, you really don't have to do anything. Work and recognition come from your playing.
Maybe that's one aspect of being a so called "pro player" It certainly isn't the picking.Last edited by jimmyb; 05-11-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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Jimmy what do you think of RB's comment that it's impossible to play with a relaxed swing feel when picking from the elbow?
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Not that way for me. If you do it wrong you tense your arm and it becomes a problem. Maybe for RB this is true. There is no right way or wrong way. If you can play what you hear there is no reason to change picking tactics
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And from an earlier post: Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Matt, I'm pretty sure you're referring to the *very popular* approach to using a flatpick, used by acoustic "flatpickers" the world over... they didn't invent it, however. I do know that it's very common, and that yep, practicioners of this method call it "Alternate Picking." No other term for it. It's "down-strokes on down-beats, up-strokes on up-beats, with NO EXCEPTIONS. Or few exceptions. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Who's using this? Lots! I was surprised that these other guys seem unfamiliar with it, or see it as a sub-category thing. Ivor Mariants (sp?), in a 1978 book, "Perfect Pick Technique," teaches this method. He was a jazz player and the book includes photos of him with George Benson, and the claim that Benson told the author that he wished he'd learned this method when he was younger. (I question this!)
In the morning hours, I attempt to teach myself to play jazz, but at other times, I play fiddle tunes on a dreadnought.
Over the past 30 years, this style of guitar playing (technically demanding, whoa!) has "exploded" -- and it has acquired a standardized technique - probably because it *is* so difficult. I've seen Bryan Sutton "cross-pick" (down on, say, the G string, up on B, down on high E, up on G, repeat this four-note, three-string pattern just like a Scruggs-style banjo "roll") at *tremolo* speed. Probably 160 bpm, at least. Strictly down-ups, and this is sixteenth notes. (Search YouTube for "how to cross-pick" - it's hard at any tempo.)
Anyway, besides these tens of tens of thousands of fiddle-tune players who use this strict method, there are many others. Jazz guitarist Joshua Breakstone preaches it fervently, and learned it, I think, from Sal Salvador. There's an entire chapter in Breakstone's book, "Jazz Guitar Etudes" devoted to ingraining this approach into a player's muscle memory.
Although rock/metal/anything virtuoso Guthrie Govan can sweep with the best of 'em, he prefers alternate picking, and sticks to the method we're talking about here.
And, when he's not sweeping, Troy Stetina uses this for his alternate picking, too. These guys are beyond fast - they're "off the metronome." I wish I knew how to post .mp3s - I could provide some quick examples. (Someone tell me how!)
Finally, unless I'm terribly mistaken, our old friend Bill Leavitt teaches this in _A Modern Method for Guitar_. Check the etudes and notice pick direction. Leavitt also briefly shows (for completeness' sake) "another, 'old-fashioned' way," which is actually "Gypsy picking" - every time you move to a different string, you change to a downstroke. Joe Pass played this way, too, and it can be very fast. But Leavitt says it's out of fashion now.
So yeah - it's everywhere, this approach to alternate picking. In fact, until I read this thread, I thought this *was* the common definition of alternate picking.Last edited by Kojo27; 05-15-2011 at 03:37 AM.
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With all due respect - alternate picking means alternating up and down strokes - period. Nothing to do with up beats or down beats. Carrying through the motion to an adjacent string (e.g. continuing with a down stroke onto the G string after executing a downstroke on the D string) is NOT alternate picking. Originally Posted by Kojo27
Of course, most prefer to use down strokes on the strong beats, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the definition of alternate picking.
Unless I'm somehow wrong......
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Oh, you aren't wrong at all. I think we're just looking at this term in two different ways. Taken literally, "alternate picking" just might be a "binary" process, as someone said. Up down up down up down, etc., no matter what. Originally Posted by Spirit59
With all due respect - alternate picking means alternating up and down strokes - period. Nothing to do with up beats or down beats. Carrying through the motion to an adjacent string (e.g. continuing with a down stroke onto the G string after executing a downstroke on the D string) is NOT alternate picking.
Of course, most prefer to use down strokes on the strong beats, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the definition of alternate picking.
Unless I'm somehow wrong......
However, we know that the English language doesn't always work this way. It forever evolves, and it forever comes to include terms that, if taken literally, would not necessarily convey the meanings they're intended to convey. Words and terms expand beyond their literal "face value." "Lend me a hand" is a lousy example, but it's late and the only one I can think of.
I just meant that, for the people (many, many thousands) who pick this way - down on the down beats, up on the up beats - "alternate picking" is THE term, and there is no other. They call their way of picking "alternate picking," and since the spoken language determines what is acceptable in linguistics, and eventually in dictionaries, we might as well accept that there will be this definition to deal with. And if linguists determine that more people use "alternate picking" to mean "down on the down-beats, up on the ups," then dictionaries will list this definition as the primary one.
It pisses me off, too, sometimes, that our language works this way. In a new dictionary I bought, the word "mature" is actually given the acceptable pronunciation of "muh - CHURR" ... because so many pronounce it this way (or mispronounce it?)
Hey-ho. Accepted pronunciations, definitions - they both depend on the *spoken* language. So we'll probably see two entries for "alternate picking." In unabridged editions only, I suspect. Don't think we'll see the term in a normal dictionary.
Unless I'm somehow wrong.
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