I like Reg's approach as systematic intro...
it covers all the basic bs all over the fretboard
it will be a good basis for whatever you do next..
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01-16-2018, 02:18 PM #31
01-16-2018, 02:31 PM #32
Segovian scale are but technical scales eleborated for excersising linear runs in classical music and sight-reading.
Of course you also learn the fretboard when you learn them... so to some degree they can be importnat (anything can be))))
but I think it's misleading to emphasize its importance for jazz impro (with all respect to forum members who have different opinion).
Mostly they teach you long scalar runs and embelishments - parts of melodic line (mostly going step-wise) in positions in classical contex.
They also teach well some abstract fretboard knowledge and sight reading.. you begin to see where each not it.
But they give almost no relation neither to arps nor to chords
01-16-2018, 02:43 PM #33
01-16-2018, 04:10 PM #34
Ted Dunbar totally ripped off my idea :-D
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He did like to read esoteric mystical and philosophical books, who knows.
01-16-2018, 06:01 PM #35
01-16-2018, 08:42 PM #36
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- Jan 2010
Yes... anything can work if you work at it long enough.
The system I use has no holes... because it's designed for the guitar. Scales, arpeggios chords... anything one wants to play is music by itself first... you learn to perform it on the guitar.
The advantage or the organization I use... it's a 12 fret repeating pattern system.
Scales, arpeggios chords everything is organized with the same fretboard organization.
What happens.... I can play anything anywhere, I can play cowboy chord fingering systems... and do so all the time.
I'm from a classical background... and can play most instrument... Disclaimer, not well, But I can sight read and perform. When I started guitar... the teaching methods were lousy... and when I got into jazz and started playing gigs..... I knew I needed to come up with something... long story short.... I don't need to stare at the guitar to perform etc... I have chops, not as many as I had back in the late 60's and 70's... But I can still cover.
Most guitarist... can't really sight read, need to stare at their fretboard while playing and can't comp. A lot of these problems are from not having a performance system designed for the guitar. Most memorize sections of the fretboard and then try and mix and match what they have memorized from different players and teachers... It's like trying to speak using words and understandings from ten languages... and actually have a discussion about something new.
When you take the time to learn the fretboard... you can easily play arpeggios to imply harmony for any melody or melodic line, or play chords below any line with out having to really think. It becomes technically mechanical.
Different players have different ways of expressing how they play, but generally the good players all want the same thing..... they want to play what they want... not what they're able to because of what the guitar allows them.
For the OP... the mental organization... personally I have all the scales, arpeggios and chords etc... already together. My mental thoughts and organization could be... I'm soloing over, say the Practical Standards tune this month, Take the A Train, So I might think when playing over the D7#11, (not D7b5, there is a natural 5), anyway the melody not is G#...
4th position starting on 4th string.......G# A /C / E / G# B............A- ma7 9
7th position starting on 4th string.......B C / E / G#/ B D ............Cma9#5
11th position same.........................D E / G# /B / D F#...........E9
all from A mm scale... I'm probably hearing that D7#11...as a A-9 to D9#11 chord pattern... the point is I'm not mentally thing about how to play what I'm hearing... the scales, arpeggios, chords etc... the physical playing is already worked out.
I can still use different fingering to create different feels, different articulations... different phrasings .... again the fretboard is already worked out... I don't need to think about that.
Someone said they practiced Harmonic maj. scales... where to use that scale. Listen to David Hazeltine's Barbados... it's a cool blues tune. It's and Blueslike are two tunes I made charts... and play ocassionally at gigs. Anyway Barbados use Hmaj.
01-16-2018, 09:37 PM #37
What does its diatonic equivalent look like? (I mean I would imagine that melodic minor is more symmetrical in the first place and usually geared around VII and III?) For diatonic I would assume similar but using extended diatonic relationships up and down a third? Then on to other chords which are used more to target the chord of the moment?
Anyway, I'd love the chance to look at anything you have with this kind of thing written down, regardless of the state it's in. I know you want it to be organized, and I can appreciate that. Very interested in your notion of "a performance system designed for guitar". Compelling...
01-16-2018, 09:43 PM #38
01-16-2018, 10:13 PM #39
Scales Question (Mental Organization)
Regarding sight reading, the reason many guitarists suck at it isn’t so much that they don’t use whatever system that someone feels is the best but because they don’t practice it. They might practice reading but if they don’t practice sight reading then they will not get good at it and will not learn to assign sounds in their head with what they are seeing on the page before they play it and how to associate it with fingerings and intervals on the fretboard, which is a key element of sight reading. The good news is that you just have to do it, and unlike comping you can practice it most efficiently in your own home. But for some reason people don’t, or they think that half assing is good enough so they don’t push their sight reading to the point that they can read really well the first time through.
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01-17-2018, 02:44 AM #40
01-17-2018, 10:35 AM #41
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Yea Matt... I use extended Diatonic approach... (up and down diatonic 3rd relationships), just like I use subs, function subs, tritone subs etc...
Context always organizes the application... meaning the approach, extended diatonic relationships, is a micro concept, the big picture or macro concept(s) generally control how much I can develop the relationship.
Generally I use MM and different technical applications to help me frame Blue notes, or Blue note feels. Or create different harmonic backgrounds for simple jazz language.
And yes I use Target moments as references for harmonic relationships.
And the simple way I organized how I perform on the guitar... which is just a fingering system where all aspects of performance are based on same basic fingering system, everything is tied together, completely mechanical.... anyway when I mentally hear or want to try and develop something... say extending a lick with a lead line or melody on top...I already have a fingering reference.
I can change it, use a different stylistic fingering, but again those are already organized.
Like I've always said, and docbop agreed above... pick a system and finish the learning and understanding of the organization, which will lead to less wasted mental process. ( I stretched the commit comment )
And yea rio... if you don't practice sight reading, it will never happen. I generally try and push guitarist to become aware of rhythmic and melodic patterns... which will speed up the process of being able to get ahead of the music. Instead of recognizing notes, you recognize longer patterns, which allows you to relax by being ahead. You can then also actually work on the performance aspect and hear what else is going on. And this is always easier when one already has a fingering system together which doesn't require taking your eyes off the chart and being able to look around when you do.
01-17-2018, 10:49 AM #42
I darsesay the answer is in the Reg thread somewhere, but I'm not sure if I yet appreciate how the example Reg posted translates to fretboard mapping... I'm intrigued though...
01-17-2018, 11:43 AM #43
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hey Christian... who knows, I get lost in the moment etc...
But the Hazeldine vid was just example of using Harmonic Maj... with a blues tune... and I always like that group of musicians
the Lick going up in 3rds was example or result of fret mapping organization for playing
the vid of me was ? Matt putting together fret mapping and altered subs from MM licks. More of how everything is the same with most of my playing.... I'm way too simple...