The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Just wondering how many of you have copped technique from your heroes, borrowed ideas, thought of altering your own technique with hopes of playing like them?

    I've been working hard on fundamentals lately, technique included, and can't figure out if this may be good for me or not. I'm specifically dealing with fretting hand technique, so I'm thinking about fingering/note choice, speed, comfort etc.. as the result.

    Any thoughts appreciated!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    ome of the greats have said I can show you exactly what I play and you'll never sound like me, we are two different people. Mentally and physically we are all different and that's a good thing. I would say let others inspire you to find your version of their style or sound then let that melt into part of being you.

    I believe it was Miles and I heard Hendrix said it once too... Those guys are copying everything I played including all the mistakes. That's the thing about the great musicians they make mistakes like everyone else, but you don't realize it because you don't know what they were going for and how they adjusted to make it work.

  4. #3

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    I think you have to go through that. When I began, I wanted to BE those cats. They could do the impossible. Yeah I wanted to possess all of it and I thought if I had their notes, that would be the answer. You have to.
    But that approach is full of the limitations especially the limitations that you're not aware are limiting your idols.
    I think a huge revelation came when I discovered that it was the ability to create music rather than re-create something someone else had done that I wanted. That came from seeing a lot of live music, and seeing the creative ability, discipline and hard work was what I was seeing channeled through those players.
    After seeing that, I respected those players, but I came not to value the gravity of their production. It was process not product that was exciting to me.
    Of course when ever I can get information from those idols, they'd give me really priceless gifts, but it wasn't in copying them.

    Two examples that I've found priceless: Tal Farlow was a Guitar God when I was growing up. I was going to school in NJ while he was alive. He was living in Sea Bright and playing at the Sign Of The Times. I had the great fortune to spend time with him and pick his brain. He couldn't tell me what he'd played unless I stopped him almost immediately as he was playing. Otherwise he'd say "I don't remember what I was doing, this is what I'm doing now." I learned the most from listening to him live, and knowing the flow of ideas was broader than what could be quantified in any lesson. That was an enormous lesson that came from my wanting what he had and finding out it didn't sound like him at all.
    Second story: I met Mick Goodrick when I moved to Boston. His playing at the time, with Jack Dejohnette and Charlie's Liberation Orchestra was legendary. I wanted to study with him so I could learn to play like him; have his knowledge. Y'know, he never had time to give me a lesson but he would give me limitless time to ask questions over lunch, hang in the space that was making the music.
    One day I asked him how could anyone ever find the time to master an instrument that took all my idols a lifetime each to find their voice on? He more or less said I had to learn to love their music enough to get what I wanted from them, and not worry about whether it was wasting my time. If I really loved the music, what I learned would be my own and that's what they were all doing.
    Yeah, I'm still learning, but I don't sound like any of them. I'm happy for that, and the wisdom of my teachers.

    David

  5. #4

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    One piece of advice I've heard is, "Don't just loot one store." Lots of people have been inspired by Wes to play heads in octaves, but they don't do it all the time. It's not the only trick in their bag.

    I'm learning to use a thumb pick so I can do some Travis picking, but that will never be the whole (or even the main part) of my style.

    At this point (-I'm 59) I don't even remember where I got some of the things I use. It was some player somewhere, but I'm not sure who. (And you can get pretty much the same thing from several different players, esp chord grips, fingering approaches, mastery of certain dynamics and flourishes...)

  6. #5

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    I'm a bedroom hack, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
    I have played out in the past, but not much lately.
    In the end it all boils down to enjoyment.
    I enjoy ripping various things from those that inspire me.
    I'm not trying to be original or push new ground. I just enjoy playing what I like.
    I do believe trying to emulate various techniques from those you enjoy helps you get a feel for what they're doing from a technical standpoint
    At the same time by emulating techniques one shouldn't think it is going to be the end all be all of becoming a good guitarist.
    Still, it doesn't hurt.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    One piece of advice I've heard is, "Don't just loot one store." Lots of people have been inspired by Wes to play heads in octaves, but they don't do it all the time. It's not the only trick in their bag...
    Trying to master octaves without making them sound like a "trick" is something that I work on.

    I hear too many nuances in the way that others play that limit me from copying what they do. Like others have said, I look for inspiration in what great musicians do, but I try to process it in my own way with my own nuances. I would be banging my head against the wall otherwise.

  8. #7

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    More feeling than specifics. I have copped some things from Jim Hall, but I think I got more from becoming aware of his way of feeling things while comping than from the handful of things I transcribed.

    Same fo r BB King and Carlos Santana, two other influences. Again, more feel than technique. That said, I did try to get Santana's tone, which I eventually required a humbucker and a Mesa Boogie.

    When I heard Knopfler, I wanted his sound, but I never did anything about it. Same for Wes. I love his playing, but I've never copped anything

  9. #8

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    I’ve always been surprised to notice how many different ways there are to play the guitar. This in itself is inspiring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Just wondering how many of you have copped technique from your heroes, borrowed ideas, thought of altering your own technique with hopes of playing like them?

    Any thoughts appreciated!
    I think that understanding how people played can be a really important piece of the puzzle. The clearest example is Charlie Christian: if you know that he primarily played from a few basic "shapes" on the neck, learning his melodic language is much easier. It's possible to play his solos in other positions on the guitar, but they don't lay nearly as well or make nearly as much sense. I speak from firsthand experience, when I learned Charlie's solos I learned a lot of them in "strange" positions because I studied with a pianist who was only concerned I could play the lines. Later I went back and learned them in the "correct" positions and it helped me a lot.

    I also think it can be a real learning exercise to emulate great player's technique, even if it's just in the practice room. I often practice playing with all downstrokes (or picking with thumb) and I definitely feel I improvise different sorts of lines doing this, and it influences what I play even when picking my "normal" way. Same thing goes for not using the left hand pinky.

    So, I think it's really useful to look at the traditions of the guitar, and what in particular has worked for the greatest players, and try that out, even if you don't have any hopes/aspirations of sounding like anyone but yourself.

  11. #10

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    As a kid, I learned a lot of rock solos, but I never tried to copy what I knew about how they played. For example, one of the first solos I learned was Sultans of Swing, but I never tried to play with my right hand fingers the way Knopfler does. I'd try to get the articulation and the flow but using my own technique. Or even changing the articulation if I found a way that sounded better to me.

    Part of that was probably laziness, but mostly, I didn't want to be a clone. That's been a double-edged sword. As a rock player, I think I had a unique voice, but the down side was that a lot of stuff other guys could do easily, I couldn't because they'd actually learned the techniques.

    In jazz, I've discovered that having a common vocabulary is a lot more important than it was in rock, so I'm doing a lot of work that I probably should have done as a teenager (like I didn't neglect my homework enough back then!)

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    So, I think it's really useful to look at the traditions of the guitar, and what in particular has worked for the greatest players, and try that out, even if you don't have any hopes/aspirations of sounding like anyone but yourself.
    This is great. On top of being very useful and educational, I thoroughly enjoy playing like my heroes at times -really brings out the child in me! If some of it creeps into my playing? Guess it can’t hurt..

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    This is great. On top of being very useful and educational, I thoroughly enjoy playing like my heroes at times -really brings out the child in me! If some of it creeps into my playing? Guess it can’t hurt..
    yeah man, it's fun, too. I had an old boxing coach who would have us spar a round in Roy Jones' style, with our hands down. it was really useful and instructive, even though none of us were good enough to actually pull off that style in a match.

    Playing without the pinky of the left hand is very similar kind of exercise to that, in the sense that it forces you to shift positions in a certain way and play certain kinds of lines that might not happen naturally with a more "classical" type approach.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    yeah man, it's fun, too. I had an old boxing coach who would have us spar a round in Roy Jones' style, with our hands down. it was really useful and instructive, even though none of us were good enough to actually pull off that style in a match.

    Playing without the pinky of the left hand is very similar kind of exercise to that, in the sense that it forces you to shift positions in a certain way and play certain kinds of lines that might not happen naturally with a more "classical" type approach.
    I already do play with three fingers, heh.. but am always open to at least trying (or borrowing) technique I see others using, that feels comfortable and sounds good to me. I’m not sure it means I’ll sound just like my hero(es).

  15. #14
    I feel like one of the most crucial and fruitful areas of trying to emulate players is when you try to emulate a technique... and fail.

    Because a lot of the time, that will cause you to come up with your own approximation that's slightly different and gives you a new sound that's more unique to yourself. Hell, Chet Atkins' musical style came from trying to emulate Merle Travis and being unable to do it exactly as he did, which lead him to his thumb and 3 fingers technique.

    One of my guitar heroes, although he's not a jazz guy, is Wilko Johnson; I love his style of guitar playing, which he developed tryint o emulate Mick Green and failing. And now, to an extent, I'm trying to imitate Wilko and failing - hopefully, I'll be able to come up with something new and original in attempting to do so. (If you're wondering, it's because Wilko's technique is very much built around using the thumb to fret notes on the fifth and sixth strings - I prefer a thicker neck, and my hands are smaller than his, so I can't manage that.)

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    he developed tryint o emulate Mick Green and failing. And now, to an extent, I'm trying to imitate Wilko and failing - hopefully, I'll be able to come up with something new and original in attempting to do so.
    Interesting point. It reminds me of something Conan O'Brian said. He said that David Letterman became who he is because he tried to be Johnny Carson, and Conan became who he is because he tried to be Letterman.

  17. #16

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    A musician who I wished I could play like when I started and who has spawned more than his fair share of imitators and influenced a number of musicians who have gone on to develop their own sound is Pat Martino. In a 1973 interview he gave his views on the subject.
    ----------------------
    "Ques: Did any guitarists’ playing influence you?"


    "Of course. Johnny Smith, Wes Montgomery and just about any guitar player I ever listened to.

    What did Smith’s playing offer you?
    Precision! Precision and cleanliness and getting over what you want to say without laboring over impediments. I am always concerned with the present moment, and when I was listening and viewing Smith’s mastery of the guitar I seriously wanted to become another Johnny Smith. I copied all I could comprehend from his albums. But, when I started studying with Dennis Sandole, Dennis made me realize that if Smith stopped making records, I’d have to stop playing. The most important thing about a player is that what he plays is recognizable as far as being cleanly executed with articulation and dynamics. Smith’s playing has all these aspects. Another great thing about his playing is that he has kept his identity; you can always recognize his playing and his sound.

    Ques: Don’t you find that studying a man’s playing is mechanical, and only covers half the picture? The other half concerns the forces that make them express as they do.


    True, especially with the younger cats. They don’t take into consideration that when they are listening to a musician they are actually listening to a stronger force, a force which the musician is in relationship to. For instance, that musician may be a theologian, philosopher, mathematician or politician, but the listeners only see their Mel Bay and Nick Manoloff books. This isn’t their fault, it’s just a matter of reality. Hopefully, with time and wisdom, they will learn that there are more realities than one in expressing yourself in music. For instance, how could you analyze John Coltrane’s music without being aware of what he was in relationship to? "

  18. #17

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    An artist is as defined by their limitations as their strengths.

    Personally I’ve never gone out of my way to learn a hero’s technique, although I do find it almost as interesting to watch guitar players as to listen to them.

    But the players I like are diverse technically, so I’d end up a bit confused anyway.

    Basically a self taught guy in terms of chops, I relearned right hand technique a few years ago to cope with acoustic guitar. This had the side effect of making everything i play sound like Django haha. So people started to hear me as a Django guy. I love Django, but I would say I’ve spent as much time studying Charlie Christian, Wes and so on. It’s funny.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ...
    Personally I’ve never gone out of my way to learn a hero’s technique, although I do find it almost as interesting to watch guitar players as to listen to them.

    But the players I like are diverse technically, so I’d end up a bit confused anyway...
    Me too on the three points above. What is interesting to me about the visual aspect is the mystery and magic about how players do what they do. I could watch some players play and still have no clue as to what they are doing to get what they get out their guitar.

    One example that I see all the time is this fellow that demonstrates guitars daily from Norman's Rare Guitars in SoCal. It's a fun 10 minute youtube watch. 5 or 6 days a week he picks up a rare-ish guitar from their stock, explains the details and history behind the production, and then demos them. He always picks popular songs and plays them note for note/attack for attack/sustain for sustain, etc. with much of the sonic textures that are recognizable. I see him do it with disbelief many times. He is muting, bending, sliding, hammering, thumb over, thumb behind, etc. - you name it. Most of the time it looks anything but straight forward to me, but it also reinforces why I like the instrument for jazz. I am perfectly fine staying away from the full on emulations that he does because I couldn't do it anyway.

  20. #19

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    Technique or overall approach and Style ?

    I did not study Other People's Technique - I did the opposite - I studied the Guitar itself -the strings, etc . how to alternate across strings skip strings . How to fingerpick in different 'new' rhythms etc . and gradually refined it .

    But for beginners , intermediates...

    I think the Camera mounted on the Guitar thing is a good way for people who want to copy another's technique - you will still need hundreds or thousands of hours of practice to 'get it' fully .

    And fundamentals adjusted for your own hands are always top priority even if copying .
    If you don't first develop even sounding strokes REGARDLESS of thumbpick/ fingers P and I/ fingers I and M / flat pick / etc etc...

    If you don't develop even sounding strokes - and even' time 'to metronome or track or tunes- it is very unlikely that you will be able to copy or emulate Pro Players and get paid...

    If just having fun - then copy have fun and don't worry about really getting it fully .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-30-2019 at 09:00 AM.

  21. #20

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    I doubt anyone will end up being a clone of someone else....different body types and "prior knowledge" bases make that unlikely.

    I think it is interesting, and valuable, to look at different approaches to see what is really essential, what is not, and what can work.

    I enjoy looking at different golfers....and many swing VERY differently....Nicklaus very upright w/ flying elbow; Hogan---quite flat with "tight" arms and lots of body turn; Vardon---bent left arm and heavy elbow throwing action through swing; Arnold Palmer--a swing so good and together, it actually looks slightly awkward because of little "flow"; John Daly---powerful with flexibility like Gumby doll.

    Guitar wise: Kenny Burrell---lots of finger action in his picking technique; Benson--has that slide-y, unusual grip in his picking; Chuck Wayne---unbelievable chops and lots of spread fingering in single lines--amazing chord melody player, too; Wes M.---the thumb thing with the big rhythmic, slide-y thing going on and integration of rhythm and lead playing; Joe Pass--great bopper, pick player, in say 1964, but later on he seemed to develop his finger style more and use it more.

    Lots of ways to skin the cat....I admire players who continue to evolve like Joe Pass and Barney Kessel whose albums in '70's showed off new tricks in his own approach.

  22. #21

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    Yep. Listening, and having tastes in music is itself a creative expression. It all shows up in your playing.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    An artist is as defined by their limitations as their strengths.

    Personally I’ve never gone out of my way to learn a hero’s technique, although I do find it almost as interesting to watch guitar players as to listen to them.

    But the players I like are diverse technically, so I’d end up a bit confused anyway.

    Basically a self taught guy in terms of chops, I relearned right hand technique a few years ago to cope with acoustic guitar. This had the side effect of making everything i play sound like Django haha. So people started to hear me as a Django guy. I love Django, but I would say I’ve spent as much time studying Charlie Christian, Wes and so on. It’s funny.
    Came to say this but with some (tritone?) substitutes for Django and Charlie Christian

    Jens

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Just wondering how many of you have copped technique from your heroes, borrowed ideas, thought of altering your own technique with hopes of playing like them?

    I've been working hard on fundamentals lately, technique included, and can't figure out if this may be good for me or not. I'm specifically dealing with fretting hand technique, so I'm thinking about fingering/note choice, speed, comfort etc.. as the result.

    Any thoughts appreciated!
    In a few cases, overall conception. Those are Carlos Santana's searing sound and Jim Hall's introspection (or at least, that's the word that comes to mind when I think about his ballad playing). Those two are pretty far afield, but I loved both and I feel they are influences. Also, my teachers, but I can't do justice to them in a short post.

    In other cases, bits of their sound, like BB King's high stinging note, Mark Knopfler's pull-offs, octaves from Wes, double stops from somebody. Bits and pieces.

    I learned technique from my teachers, but I ended up doing things my own way. I suspect that there are individual physiologic differences that make it hard to anything exactly like an idol.

  25. #24

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    I don't think I've ever tried to copy anyone's technique. But I've copped any ideas, licks, phrases that I'm able to, have the time to, or that I think would work for me.

    I learnt a couple of full Wes solos (with lots of help from Wolf Marshall), a couple of full Charlie Parker solos (with lots of help from the Omnibook). But I think in general it's more productive to take an individual line that you really like and work it into your/my own playing. I think all jazz, rock, blues players have always done this haven't they? That's how the British Blues and Jazz Boom was made anyway. Couldn't have been done any other way.

    Very occasionally I come up with something original too ;-)

    I was a big fan of mid period Coltrane and any period John McLaughlin, but hmm hahaha.

  26. #25

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    I have to say the students I teach at this uni job I’m depping are very good at learning solos and songs by ear. They do their homework.

    I think there’s a real culture of learning solos among young musicians - look at YouTube.

    But I really agree with Bruce Arnold’s comments on the subject. Learn tunes before solos.

    Tbh I think there is a lot to said for learning bebop heads by ear and studying them. Then you will learn the language but you’ll also have something to play on gigs.o