The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    An artist is as defined by their limitations as their strengths.

    Personally I’ve never gone out of my way to learn a hero’s technique, although I do find it almost as interesting to watch guitar players as to listen to them.

    But the players I like are diverse technically, so I’d end up a bit confused anyway.

    Basically a self taught guy in terms of chops, I relearned right hand technique a few years ago to cope with acoustic guitar. This had the side effect of making everything i play sound like Django haha. So people started to hear me as a Django guy. I love Django, but I would say I’ve spent as much time studying Charlie Christian, Wes and so on. It’s funny.
    I seem to recall you doing several Charlie Christian clips a few years back, kind of going for the whole package of sound, notes, vibe, etc. Looked like a very fun and useful project.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Ok when can i collect my $1000?

  4. #28

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    Nice work! I'll throw in a buck <g>.

    There's also a link in there to a transcription of that solo. Worth looking at (for the lazy, non-transcriber) because it has some characteristic CC sounds, like E D Bb G Eb E C (mostly descending) against C7.

    Another indication that great improvisers make some straightforward note choices sound like a personal style.
    Cmixo with a quick blue note (later part of Chuck Berry's style) and it sounds like CC.

  5. #29

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    Fact is, if I did not emulate my heroes' technique... I would not have any technique.

  6. #30

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    I don't know if I emulate anyone's technique, since there was no way of seeing technique back when I was growing up. We had no TV, and recordings were hard to come by out in the country, but my parents had a big library of old 78s, and the radio was almost always on. I certainly stole lots of licks, but I have no idea whether I played them exactly like anyone else. I just figured it all out as best I could. At this late date, I'm not going to try to change my technique, so I just fumble through, having as much fun as I can.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I'm not nearly good enough to emulate my heroes' technique.

    I can emulate the technique having watched him play up close a number of times. It's everything else that troubles me so.



  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I can emulate the technique having watched him play up close a number of times. It's everything else that troubles me so.






    If I say I can emulate someone technique that means on a few lines I can sound a lot like them ( not their overall Style )...the attack, or smoothness, time feel , rhythm and speed .




    "¿Can SUPERFICIALLY Copying a Master's Technique enable me to play like them WITHOUT putting in thousands of hours of Ètudes ( unit musical Practice by isolation then integration ) or at LEAST hundreds of hours to a few thousand IF I am extremely gifted ?"

    No. You have to do 'The Work ' and also adjust it to your body .

    You have to do a lot of practice even if you are Wes or Bireli LaGrene.

    Bireli is a very gifted Player ( in many Styles) but wild guess is he still practiced for a few thousand hours before he was a 14 year old whiz kid or 13 - whatever it was - I saw a video where he was 14 .

    Some people get the mechanics out of the way really quickly.

    Your Technique should gradually get the mechanics out of the way..you want to just hear in in your mind and play it...uniformity , simplicity , consistency , dependable , out of the way Mechanics , whether it's fingers, pick, both , all fingers, etc etc..you are practicing to get the mechanics out of the way.

    The idea that you can just copy and elevate your technique drastically by copying without having done the work or doing it as a re-application
    of previous work is a fallacy.

    You have to work , and apply it to your Body and Mind.

    NONE of you seem to get this.

    Technique enables you to lock to a metronome and play what you 'hear' eventually.

    You can only possibly imitate Players with LESS SKILL than you have - NEVER MORE SKILL.

    You can run 100 yard dash in 11.01 seconds

    Why not imitate the Technique of Malishnikov the Olympic Sprinter who runs it in 9.6 Seconds ?


    HOWEVER- I must correct my post - IF you use a Player as a Model for a Technique- you can go one or two steps in their direction - then in 10 or 100 or 1000 hours go a few more steps ...then in 10 or 1000 or 1000 hours AGAIN go a few more steps.

    Gifted people may jump quicker but it is still a Gradual Scale.

    Technically highly skilled People can jump MUCH quicker but normally use their default style to imitate the 'HERO GUY'.

    So if you are already world class - you will have a much better chance.

    BUT - even other World Class NBA Players could not Copy Michael Jordan -

    So a beginner has to do a lot of fundamentals - like the HERO did anyway...just using common sense..
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-24-2018 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #33

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    Yes I know.

    I was just looking for an excuse to post a link to another incredible McLaughlin performance.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Yes I know.

    Lol.
    I was just looking for an excuse to post a link to another incredible McLaughlin performance.
    Some of his performances with Shakti are really crazy in the Pocket...let me try to find one .



    He really thrives on/ in these type of rhythms "

    I can feel the pocket much more than years ago .

    The Violinist is something else too.

    It's a really cool Rhythm Section .

    All we have to do is watch his right hand closely and listen to the percussion and - bam ..*.we have it.


    Ha- I just watched this again - McLaughlin's fret hand is so relaxed it looks like the sound is dubbed in - it looks like he could not really be playing...the Groove is crazy tight in most places..
    Unless you are a world class Player already emulating this won't help much, however JM has a Youtube Vid on ' fluency ' where you really see his grip and strokes and it's nice and slow- he actually swings...that can be emulated far more easily IMO.

    Damn- what an amazing expressive Monster player he was here..and he's having fun !...and doing weirdly beautiful comping here too...crazy good.

    *not really- just being silly.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-24-2018 at 04:36 PM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    The top Guitarists all sound quite different from each other....the climb toward the top involves taking your own thing really really far in one or ( or maybe 3 directions) rather than copying ...even when they play the same lines ( which do get tossed around ) they sound different from each other.
    I think a good way to appreciate this is to think of singers. The greats are distinctive in some way. Singular. Sinatra, Ella, Bing, Billie, Miss Peggy Lee, Tony Bennett, Anita O'Day, Blossom Dearie, Nina Simone, Norah Jones. You don't mistake one for the other.

    But it is important to remember that they are not the only people who sing well. Many people sing just fine but their voice is not distinctive. They don't need singing lessons. They're just not distinctive. Maybe they haven't found their niche and someday will. Maybe they have no niche---maybe they're just good voices of a conventional type and thus don't stand out.

    There are lots of guitarists who are good players but nothing about their playing stands out. Their technique is fine, maybe exceptional, but nothing about their playing really stands out. So they are unlikely to gain a large following. Of course, not everyone wants to. Some just want to play well for their own enjoyment and that of close friends and family. Nothing wrong with that.

  12. #36

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    Mark R - sure ...I agree with that

    AND this far down the line it's a bit more difficult to innovate and still sound good in any music field.

    AND - IF a Guitarist takes this from Guy X and this from Guy Y and this from Guy Z- SOMETIMES he creates a Style or sometimes ..he kind of homogenizes ..or falls short if he doesn't have the SKILLS ' SRV had the skilz to amalgamate a bunch of different Bluesmen. And he did. But he had the skilz.













    AND - lastly - Guitarists often want to Play like their
    'Heros' - even that word subtly implies that it's out of reach ...doesn't it ?



    Obviously- we can't all be Stars ...and chops don't mean better writing or melodies.
    Audiences instantly recognize technical expertise though - better to have extreme chops and fluidity if you can or are willing to work till you do .



    Anyway... here's an example of of the equivalent of a Virtuoso Vocalist who has both chops and Style.





    Something Jazzers would prefer stylistically I imagine.



    If any of you play the Guitar as well as this woman sings ...

    You are doing extraordinarily well.

    Or - IF you can Play Jazz or Fusion as well as Yngwie Malmsteen plays NeoClassical Shred Rock ( or whatever it's called - he is great at that - ) ...you are doing extraordinary well also IMO.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-26-2019 at 11:20 AM.

  13. #37
    Maybe I wasn't too clear on the original post; I noticed the thread kind of moved away from technique, to style.

    I suppose I was looking for some advice regarding copying your heroes' technique as a means to get faster, cleaner, improve technically. I'm at this point right now where I'm thinking if I could only have so-and-so's technique things might be that much easier going forward. Anyone sympathize?

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Maybe I wasn't too clear on the original post; I noticed the thread kind of moved away from technique, to style.

    I suppose I was looking for some advice regarding copying your heroes' technique as a means to get faster, cleaner, improve technically. I'm at this point right now where I'm thinking if I could only have so-and-so's technique things might be that much easier going forward. Anyone sympathize?
    I admire (among many others) the right hand technique of John McLaughlin and Wes. But trying to emulate both of them at the same time would definitely break my wrist.

    Stylistically... not possible to play Wes using John's technique, or vice versa. So I'd say style and technique are the flip side of the same coin.

    Could you be a bit more specific about which hero?
    Last edited by sunnysideup; 02-23-2018 at 07:58 AM.

  15. #39

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    I realize that it is possible to play guitar in tights and a cape, but I can't do it. I have attempted a few times in my underwear as a test, but that wasn't for me.

  16. #40

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    Also - to the OP have at it and use a strong mental image of what you want to hear and go for it.

    Not saying you can't do it .
    Just that you may have to work practice etc.

    We don't know if I can even play since I have not posted Music yet ..( lol ) so listen to this guy- what he says about people spending time practicing ( you may transcend some of that ..some can ).






    What I CAN tell you keep it SIMPLE .
    And consistent .

    Generally in order to EMULATE your Hero's Technique you will need to practice like they did AND adapt it for your hands and mind.




    Everybody has to put time in ....


    And you have to use a LOT of common sense when trying to ' imitate/ emulate ' someone's technique who is NOT there in the room to show you how.

    And if you had that much diagnostic ability re: picking you would already be at 70 to 80% of anyone and wouldn't be asking about cloning.

    So you the OP need expert help from someone who can diagnose and Play himself at a high level.

    So finding a local who can play his tail off ...and guide you through .

    A green belt wants to kick like Van Damme or Bruce Lee probably needs a Black Belt to keep him on the right track incremental jumps can happen ...
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 07-22-2019 at 01:35 AM.

  17. #41

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    It's hard to clone someone's technique especially if you pick someone who is already great .



    Why don't you Guys ever want to clone someone who is only very basic , pretty good .....?

    'Emulating Bruce Springsteen's Technique ?'

    That's the problem - I finally figured it out !

    The secret is to clone someone's technique- who is only at a similar technique level to where you are now !

    Mystery solved...choose your heroes more carefully.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I can emulate the technique having watched him play up close a number of times. It's everything else that troubles me so.


    There's a helpful clue sitting on the table...

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    I really don't agree - BUT - we all stand on the shoulders of our predecessors. That's the nature of evolution and progress.
    Well I’m not going to proclaim anyone the best, because that’s just asking for trouble.

    I don’t think Django’s right hand technique has been bettered though by anyone since for precision, clarity and tone. Listen to him at half speed and weep bitter tears.

    And bear in mind most modern players tickle their guitars and lean on the amps.

    Johnny Mac is great though. He gives it some stick.

    I actually think if Django had lived he’d have joined the jazz rock movement and tried to outdo Mahavishnu lol

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa

    The secret is to clone someone's technique- who is only at a similar technique level to where you are now !
    I get that you are joking, but, I will say that I have found emulating people who I can grasp to be WAY more useful than trying to go too far above my level. when I was 16 I loved Clifford Brown and transcribed a bunch of his solos, but I only learned the notes and the rest was too far above my head. Whereas someone like Chet Baker, I learned melodic material that improved my playing almost immediately. It took me years before I really felt like I could learn something from transcribing folks like Bird.

    I'm sure there are a lot of people a lot more talented that can grok Bird and others immediately, but, for the rest of us, I think there's a lot of truth and value to not getting too far outside your comfort zone in terms of emulating players as well as transcribing.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Just wondering how many of you have copped technique from your heroes, borrowed ideas, thought of altering your own technique with hopes of playing like them?
    Dave Martone, after achieving a level of success, dedicated something like three years to NOT playing anyone else's music and trying to figure out who he was musically, but I think most of us can't help it. I mean, it's in everything. Musicians listen to music and you can't help but be inspired by stuff and grab onto it for your own purposes. And when you see someone doing something that excites you or makes more sense, are you really supposed to try to ignore it because they got there first? No way. Jim Heath played with hybrid picking and I was stoked on him so I spent hours trying to learn hybrid picking. Matt Skiba loves octave chords so I'm going to experiment with using them, too.

    I think it's just natural unless you're Dave Martone.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I’m not going to proclaim anyone the best, because that’s just asking for trouble.

    I don’t think Django’s right hand technique has been bettered though by anyone since for precision, clarity and tone. Listen to him at half speed and weep bitter tears.

    And bear in mind most modern players tickle their guitars and lean on the amps.

    Johnny Mac is great though. He gives it some stick.

    I actually think if Django had lived he’d have joined the jazz rock movement and tried to outdo Mahavishnu lol
    Django had a large recorded history as I understand it. Do you have a favorite CD that you would recommend?

    Also, I realize that the thread is about technique but I was also referring to improvisational capability.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Django had a large recorded history as I understand it. Do you have a favorite CD that you would recommend?

    Also, I realize that the thread is about technique but I was also referring to improvisational capability.
    Well you can grab a box set of his classic 30s recordings for not too much. The hot club. Those recordings are definitive.

    His electric stuff is fun too. Sometimes he almost sounds like a proto McLaughlin. He had more chops than the US jazz players of that era, apart from maybe Les Paul who was frighteningly good at imitating Django in his early career, so that with the edgy valve breakup sound... it’s quite a trip for the 40s!

    I also rate Django as one of the most imaginative improvisers I have ever heard. He never played the same thing twice unlike a lot of players of his era. A true free spirit, reinventing his playing with every moment.

    Harmonically? Forget it. You have to dig a little because the music is so old timey and nostalgic to modern ears. But when you really listen to what Django was playing - name an innovation that jazz musicians were meant to have done in the 50s and 60s and Django did it first by ear. Modes, outside playing, sideslips, altered harmony, non functional chord progressions, pentatonic modes, harmonic major harmony, all of that and more turns up in his music. The guy was obsessed with Debussy and Ravel and it seeps into his harmonic sensibility.

    A genius, basically.

    The only reason I wouldn’t put him at the top of my pantheon is because he didn’t swing like the US players. He had a different feel....

    George Benson is that guitarist - kind of like what happens when you put Django and Grant Green together... funnily enough he isn’t my favourite though.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-12-2019 at 06:08 AM.

  24. #48

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    Sheer shred, precision and melody


    Django invents Speed Metal lol


    Well with a bit of Eastern European folk music and Ravel thrown in.

    You think Wes invented octaves? Wes gave Django the credit TBF. Listen 2:36.

    Also some cool outside licks in this one - Ellington orchestra backing so Django tilts more towards the US swing style in his feel. What a tone!!! (See the Benson connection)


    Odd time before there was odd time

  25. #49

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    Great stuff Christian I'll check it out. Thanks.

  26. #50

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    OK No joking this time.

    There are two main reasons it is very difficult to clone your hero's technique

    1] You really can't see exactly what their pick grip is[ I mean EXACTLY including underneath ] AND the exact motion of the pick across the strings and how they skip strings etc. and their wrist motion etc.

    2] Even if you could , you might not be able to apply it because you don't have a lot of expertise ( some is knowledge but some is gradually refined repetition ( which is what Ètudes are -those aimed at improving stability and technique).

    Karate has kids that want to punch or kick like Van Damme or Bruce Lee etc etc..

    And probably ask why can't I just copy the 6th Degree Black Belts ?

    And Instructors -they smile and say the 6th degree black belt started as a white belt then green etc. some move up quicker .

    Unfortunately - Guitar Technique is not quite as well organized ..
    BUT -IF you know whether you want to support your pick hand near the top of the Guitar like this:



    or like the people who rest their finger near the pickguard .

    You have your basic light 'Anchor' to the Guitar...

    Then you take your grip ( can be refined later )

    Then do some basic tremolo exercises getting even up and downstrokes and beginners and intermediates could learn some things on Grady's Site but I recommend a good local teacher with steady chops who knows how to alt pick and will walk you thru .

    It is much simpler than I see it presented....no need to stretch alt picking into a 2 year college course...

    And just go from there ...I don't recommend the one lick at a time thing .


    If you are self motivated you might only need a lesson every 2 weeks or month so - warn the teacher you want mechanics etc.

    And you are practicing and learning mechanics to get mechanics out of the way...

    spend some time just playing whatever you hear each day also - pretend you are already great and just Play ...in 6/8 or some division for Jazz, Modern R&B , Latin, Hip Hop and even 5/4 - 6/8 works over all of these for aggressive swing [ Jesse Von Ruller thru Benson].
    Triplets or multiples are NOT mathematically perfect because they must move forward in the measure to maintain even spacing over bar lines. All good sequencer programs do this as % swing.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-28-2021 at 09:55 AM.