The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hello guys, some people tell me my picking too light!

    Usualy for me thats when I get the best tone.
    When playing weak/cheap amps in jams, the amp either distorts on clean or sounds too trebbly and sometimes sound better with other people. Like many guitar students i've met, that play harder. Most of them even use higher action than myself, some teachers and other musicians around me say it gets better tone, articulation is better, etc.

    When the solo climax I can hear them make the notes slap on the fretboard (ocasionally happens to me, specially as strings get older and loose tension).

    Pickup height might also affect the sound and de strenght needed to pick.


    Some other guys I've met, do play with a lighter picking, lower strings, sometimes pickup closer to strings (more feedback issues). Usualy play more virtuosistically. Both "sides" have great players.

    I've met 1 guy that was picking (in my opinion) too light, using insanely low strings and 0.50 or 0.70 pointy picks. The sound wasn't very pleasing but it was strange how fast he could go with such thin pick.

    Is there any guidance on this?

    Opinions and examples on picking?

    How light is too light? How strong is too strong?
    Rotem Sivan, Peter Bernstein, Mike Moreno, Lage Lund? How strong do they pick? etc

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    good question. I also tend to pick light. Probably the best answer is to say that how you pick is an important ingredient in what your sound is. Certain styles (gypsy? Bop?) might require harder picking so you have to balance what feels good to what a standard approach might require. The one thing I worry about is to not let the light picking be tied to not having a strong enough rhythmic concept.

    I assume Jim Hall, for example is a light picker, and his time is solid and his comping and solos great. I'd guess, although I dont know for sure, that Moreno and Lund pick light.

  4. #3

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    Anything goes of course, each to their own. Me, I really dislike light pickers, sounds wimpy. Plinkety Plink... Jazz guitar is boring
    for many listeners because it lacks excitement compared with other instruments. Especially when players use light strings, thin picks and compression and or effects. So I like thickk strings, thick picks and high action. Sometimes tickle 'em, some times smash 'em.

    If you fall asleep listening to me play it'll be because of my note choices, not because of my dynamics!

  5. #4

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    sometimes i find guys that like thin strings with high action and strong picking

    usualy i like medium (012) with low action and soft picking.

    for me the dynamics are still there, you just need to pick lighter to get them, and have more control rythmically.
    but after 4 weeks the strings lose tension and they're too old to play, any picking makes them have the "slap" sound, and the "power" on the tone disapears.

    and some guys are so used to play with strong picking, that they never use lower dynamics... I used to play like that in the beggining of learning jazz, coming from a hard-rock / shred background with 3mm picks for sweeping etc...
    Last edited by Carloscepinha; 08-14-2017 at 09:47 AM.

  6. #5

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    Yes, playing too hard all the time is almost as bad as being wimpy all the time, BUT, I maintain it is easier to be used to playing hard and learning to play soft than it is the other way. The dozens of tiny muscles and ligaments in the fingers, hand, wrist and arm are at least developed enough to bust out some volume when you need it. Light pickers have zero control, it seems, when attempting to pick hard.

    It takes time, that is, if you wish to develop killer dynamics. But obviously most players don't care for that, so....

  7. #6

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    ... also, metal shredders usually are wimpy pickers too, even with their 3mm picks!

  8. #7

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    I used to be on the verge of breaking strings. Its really hard to get good pinch harmonics without diggin in :P

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carloscepinha
    I used to be on the verge of breaking strings. Its really hard to get good pinch harmonics without diggin in :P
    This is a real issue for the bebop players. Guitar Picking Doubts (Light vs Strong)

  10. #9

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    All that matters is what comes out. You need to be able to pick light and hard for the dynamics of the passage and both need to put out a clean defined note. Make a exercise like three octave scales or arpeggios and vary the dynamics from very soft to three forte but always in time and clear notes. As you progress change how quick you are changing dynamics and alway make your both soft and hard get worked on all stringsets. Once you got good control start playing melodies of tunes and exaggerate the dynamics with real melodies.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Anything goes of course, each to their own. Me, I really dislike light pickers, sounds wimpy. Plinkety Plink... Jazz guitar is boring
    for many listeners because it lacks excitement compared with other instruments. Especially when players use light strings, thin picks and compression and or effects. So I like thickk strings, thick picks and high action. Sometimes tickle 'em, some times smash 'em.

    If you fall asleep listening to me play it'll be because of my note choices, not because of my dynamics!
    I don't find any correlation between the musicians I enjoy listening to and the minutia of their technique. Each technique has its strengths and weaknesses.

    Dynamics and light picking are no more exclusive than dynamics and hard picking. At least in an amplified setting. I suppose if you play carved archtops acoustically maybe these things matter more.
    Last edited by pkirk; 08-14-2017 at 01:44 PM.

  12. #11

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    I much prefer the tone and dynamics of light pickers, the guitar "sings" better with a lighter touch , imo. A couple of forum members with a light touch, Tim Lerch, Pete Sklraloff, ... I'm sure there are many more.





    And then there's Jim Hall & Pay Metheny:



    And Julian Lage, someone that uses light and hard picking and gets a lot of dynamics:


  13. #12

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    Picking too hard on electric guitar can be a bit of a problem.

    I am told by someone lucky enough to play with Jim Hall once (he's on forum and knows who he is haha) that Jim's touch was very light.

    I agree with the posters who point out the importance of dynamic control.

  14. #13

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    Also picking hard can rob you of sustain on a clean amp

  15. #14

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    I'm in the minority for sure, no argument. But I do like it clean and mean, and if it's not picked hard, at least it might sound like it is to me. Dunno, who are the solid pickers? Was CC picking' harder than most today? Obviously Django did, and Wes used quite some force with his thumb, at least it appears so in his videos. What about GB? If he has a light touch, sure doesn't sound like it... I guess I like the attack of some country swing, rockabilly and GJ pickers, but like hearing that kinda attack with straight ahead bop lines.

    I just wish there was a modern guitar player I could reference that could follow a Benny Golson, Trane, Cannon, or Becker and not sound lame in comparison.... without distortion or effects.... Actually the 4 I mentioned in the first paragraph are plenty exciting enough for me attack wise, but the modern cats don't really have any snap to them, to my ears at least and within my limited listening...

    Of course, some of you will chime in with some excellent modern examples, and I will of course welcome them. I'm all ears!...
    Last edited by princeplanet; 08-14-2017 at 03:33 PM.

  16. #15

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    I noticed that to get a sound closer to Jim's sound a light touch was required.

    I believe my picking has allways been a bit heavier than that, specially because I wear out my frets pretty fast and I need at least 2 fret leveling jobs a year.
    I used to have pain after playing lots of legatto stuff for a long time before taking a guitar to a luthier who got it setup with lower action.

    as a reference this is my lightest playing:
    Carlos Cepinha - Practice #guitar #jazzguitar #innerurge...


    this maybe is when I'm picking harder: after 1m20s (please dont mind the mistakes)



    and here are 2 players that I love, but very diferent from each other (sound and playing):

  17. #16

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    @Princeplanet I don't think there's a right or wrong in this at all. The players you mentioned are all a bit more percussive.

    I reckon CC was fucking twatting it and driving his amp.

    And yeah I agree with you that Wes was actually picking quite firmly. He appears to have been using rest strokes. Basically Django without a pick.

    GB's touch is not light I wouldn't say, but others may know more.

    Django might not have been using that much actual force but just a very efficient technique for projection. Stochello rosenberg is meant to have an incredibly relaxed picking hand for instance.

    On the other hand that post Metheny thing is all about playing the amp. As a heavy hitting acoustic style player I find it hard to make this adjustment sometimes.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ....As a heavy hitting acoustic style player I find it hard to make this adjustment sometimes.
    Then don't! Let the amp be your bitch, not the other way around.... ?

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Then don't! Let the amp be your bitch, not the other way around.... ?
    I like a more sustained sound for certain things

  20. #19

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    There are great guitarists who have played at any or all points in the hard to soft

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

  21. #20

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    ...touch spectrum. I wouldn't over analyze it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

  22. #21

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    That's not to say it's a pointless question but I think such analyses can actually impair your playing and musical flow. Of course, if you have some bastard technique which is fundamentally wrong and requires remedial action, then it is best to just stop and figure out what the problem is and correct it.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Also picking hard can rob you of sustain on a clean amp
    Also hard picking makes player tense up, the enemy of speed. To play fast you have to be relaxed.

  24. #23

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    There is hard and light, but there is also fast and slow contact time with the string.

    The contact time the pick touches the string makes a huge difference in the tone... this is a source of confusion when one hears a guitarist that changes the contact duration of the pick against the string before it is released; the resulting tone can sound as if picked hard or light.

    The most critical thing is the way the pick releases the string to set itself up to vibrate during the attack phase of the envelop (attack, decay, sustain, release). There is a threshold of initial displacement beyond which the establishment of the stable string vibration is disturbed and impaired (which does not mean it sounds bad, it just has a certain tone quality).

  25. #24

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    I set my guitars up to neutral so far as I can, because I like having the option of digging in or laying back. I like different attacks for different passages and want the guitar to be as much as possible responsive to the needs of the moment.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Also hard picking makes player tense up, the enemy of speed. To play fast you have to be relaxed.
    It really depends what one means by 'hard.' You can play loudly and be very relaxed if your technique is correct.

    Tensions should always be minimised.

    But I feel even with a well projected and relaxed acoustic pick guitar technique what I want from an electric guitar pick technique is a bit different.