Fingerings - Which One and When is it Truly Mastered?

[AlsoRan]

A person new to the forum recently asked about Harmonic Minor fingerings. He got me thinking about the subject of fingerings. I have seen several fingerings for various scales, including those from Jimmy Bruno, the CAGED Musician Institute, Richie Zellon's course, and Reg's fingerings (which several have raved about).

How do you know which one to choose for a given scale and how do you know when a certain position is truly mastered/internalized.

I was kind of thinking that you choose a fingering pattern for a scale, get it under your fingers, and then later on you will have them internalized and will make natural changes to fit your style.

What do you think about this subject. It is many-faceted and I understand that fingerings can actually drive a person's note choices or even discourage.

[docbop]

I've played long enough that I've studied all the name fingering at some point, now I try not to think about them and just let my fingers decide in the moment. When I do think about fingers and harmonic minor is one I recently focused on for awhile I work on one octave fingerings starting on the different fingers and string sets. With one octave point of view I can start a scale pretty much anywhere and knowing the scale formulas can make any scale I want. As I've said before the smaller the piece I look at one octave, triads, intervals, the more of the big picture of the guitar fingerboard falls in place.

Also I got it from a bass teacher I had, but in few instructional videos Peter Bernstein, maybe Adam Rogers, and others they say when their teachers started teaching them a new scale they first learned it on one string. That really drills in the formula for the scale, the sound of the scale, and moving forward how to use your ear to create fingering on the fly. Learn and playing on one string teaches a lot.

[AlsoRan]

I've played long enough that I've studied all the name fingering at some point, now I try not to think about them and just let my fingers decide in the moment. When I do think about fingers and harmonic minor is one I recently focused on for awhile I work on one octave fingerings starting on the different fingers and string sets. With one octave point of view I can start a scale pretty much anywhere and knowing the scale formulas can make any scale I want. As I've said before the smaller the piece I look at one octave, triads, intervals, the more of the big picture of the guitar fingerboard falls in place.

Also I got it from a bass teacher I had, but in few instructional videos Peter Bernstein, maybe Adam Rogers, and others they say when their teachers started teaching them a new scale they first learned it on one string. That really drills in the formula for the scale, the sound of the scale, and moving forward how to use your ear to create fingering on the fly. Learn and playing on one string teaches a lot.

Funny you should mention learning on one string. A coworker is taking guitar lessons and the instructor, a graduate of North Texas State, is teaching him scales one string at a time. Also, my coworker told his instructor he wanted to learn the "chromatic scale" after watching a BB King video. I know about chromaticism, all twelve notes, but I had never heard about BB King using it.

Anyway, the instructor teaches him on one string, and then has him transpose to another string, like moving to another keyboard. Once you know the relationship between note positions and strings, then you can should be able to move from string to string.

I am not sure about this premise, but it is interesting. I am going to see if I can find that BB King video.

[henryrobinett]

I use the 3 Notes per string fingering for all of my scales. Harmonic Minors are awkward but I like using the same system so it works.


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[AlsoRan]

I use the 3 Notes per string fingering for all of my scales. Harmonic Minors are awkward but I like using the same system so it works.


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Are you pretty strict on that 3-note-per string approach, and do you adhere to it when you are at your hyperspeeds, playing a particular sequence up or down the neck.

[henryrobinett]

Kind of. When I'm hyper speeding I don't think of much of anything. But having a system helps in not having to think when in the throes of stream of consciousness improv.


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[Alter]

As jazz is based on chords, i tend to see positions on the guitar, that are chord related. So my choice of fingerings tends to be one that puts the hand into these positions. But i think it's important to study HOW the greats played, and how they moved on the guitar, in a similar way that a blues guitarist would have to play all these blues licks with specific fingerings and movements, to get the correct sound out of them.

A big part of the jazz vocabulary comes from horns, instruments that lend themselves to a very different way of playing than that of a guitar, and utilizing that playing into the guitar fretboard is always a challenge, fingering and movement wise.

[docbop]

Funny you should mention learning on one string. A coworker is taking guitar lessons and the instructor, a graduate of North Texas State, is teaching him scales one string at a time. Also, my coworker told his instructor he wanted to learn the "chromatic scale" after watching a BB King video. I know about chromaticism, all twelve notes, but I had never heard about BB King using it.

I doubt BB looked at it as chromatism, but when you look at the N-word harmony* that Dizzy talked about and others and the notes they added then based on direction then you have a ten-note scale. I would imagine BB just viewed them as available sounds to use.

* The term Negative harmony seems to start a crap storm these days so I'm avoiding using it, talk to the old cats and there were multiple names for the same thing, and some just knew it as a sound.

[cosmic gumbo]

My fingerings have to make sense in regard to sight reading, I pretty much stick to 3 notes per string. Guitar is giving you about 2 1/2 octaves per position, so you don't really need to be chasing all over the neck to play.

[vintagelove]

+1 for 7 position, 3nps.

Its an extremely comprehensive system.

[destinytot]

My fingering is coming together. I made too big a deal about accepting the pinky stretch, whereas now it's no big deal at all.

Having practised the seven fingerings (posted by kind favour of Reg) on a neck that's a slightly shorter scale than what I was used to, I now find that the fingerings not only transfer to longer scale - they feel more comfortable.

I'm more aware of painting myself into a corner when developing/playing a line, and I now find myself having the option of reaching up the neck along the same string (instead of having no choice but to play the next note on a different string - awkwardly - as I used to).

[christianm77]

I try lots of different fingerings and then I end up gravitating to certain ones.

For scales I use fairly conventional positions but for actual lines I find myself doing all sorts of stuff. For reading I am actually trying to move more towards a diagonal across the neck approach to maximise range (for instance I might go from 5th position on the low E string to 8th or 9th on the top E string, with further opportunity to add upper or lower extensions, but I still practice reading in conventional classical positions to achieve this.

That said in general I'd rather shift than stretch when playing single notes.

I try not to think to much of fingerings being set - more that these are the notes and use the hand in a logical way to get them, so if I needed to play a few notes of the harmonic minor together i could adapt.

Also fingerings for thirds and fourths have some considerations. ATM I am practicing not using the same finger ever consecutively (I.e. No barres)

When you play fast fingerings tend to be by rote. But usually I try a few things and find one that feels natural and easy.

I don't think you can know too many positions. Insert karma sutra joke here.

[christianm77]

Learning scales along one string is a good idea too...

[matt.guitarteacher]

How do you know which one to choose for a given scale and how do you know when a certain position is truly mastered/internalized.

I was kind of thinking that you choose a fingering pattern for a scale, get it under your fingers, and then later on you will have them internalized and will make natural changes to fit your style.

I think you're getting at it in this second paragraph. If you work on playing a lot of material out of certain positions/fingerings, you eventually arrive at a point where it's not that conscious thought process which you need in the beginning to just learn them.

There is a tipping point where your fingers start "hearing" and working slightly faster than your old conscious thought process, and you know what to do going forward. You surrender to the ear and have to let go of some of the older slower thought process. You kind of start to experience the process almost 3rd person, like an observer, because it's basically happening faster than verbal/symbolic thought processes.

If you haven't experienced this yet, I'd maybe work on just playing the crap out of one position until you're more there. The experience itself kind of explains everything you're asking about. I know a little about it because this was me for a pretty long time at one point.

Take a folk song, children's, Christmas, standard, anything, and play it through the cycle using a single fingering pattern. So, with an E-form pattern: C - 7th pos, F -12 th position, Bb - 5th etc. Cycling breaks what would otherwise be the monotony of playing a single pattern, and keeps your ears more alert etc.

Jordan has talked about cycling single fingering patterns as well . I've found it to be a major shortcut to working vocabulary and heads , and I wish I'd found it years ago. Rinse and repeat with other patterns using the melody that you're working.

[bako]

Learning scales along one string is a good idea too...

Learning melodies on a single string as well. Not so much that it should be played it that way but playing
on a single string forces us to organize coherent groups of notes shifting to other coherent groups of notes.
In many cases, these note groupings serve as a good model for multi string renditions of the same melody.

[NSJ]

Almost every discussion of fingerings I have found is pretty much conditioned by a rock 'n' roll thinking --you either play a line predicated on a scale or you are strumming a chord. Like how the guitar apparently has a "lead pick up" and a "rhythm pick up".

What if you want to hold a couple notes, let them ring out and play a line around them ? Like a piano player might? Sounds pretty basic but this is a very advanced technique for guitar. And practically never discussed.

absolute full credit to Steve Herberman's master classes for making me think about the flexibility and importance of of left-hand fingerings, trying to not use barre chords, pairing certain two finger combinations together , so as to allow and organic flow between root motion, chords, and melody line, between the bass and the melody and inner lines. Contrary motion and triads . Etc.

Steve has made me really rethink my concept of left-hand fingerings. Not even his direct lessons per se but the general principles he talks about makes you think for yourself how to solve problems in a more efficient way . I can't recommend his stuff enough . I can't think of someone who has so many practical applications for George v Eps material .

[Jazzstdnt]

How do you know which one to choose for a given scale and how do you know when a certain position is truly mastered/internalized.

For the first part of your question I would say experiment and develop a preference.

A simple and direct answer to the second part of your question might be:

1. When you can play the scale with full control and even tone, in legato fashion, using eighth notes, eighth note triplets, and sixteenth notes.
2. When you can play melodic and harmonic intervals (3rd thru octave) all through it, ascending and descending
3. When you can play 3,4, and 5 note arpeggios all through it ascending and descending
4. When you can improvise with it without moving
5. When you can read with it, without moving
6. When you can enter and exit the fingering to an adjacent position/fingering with ease and security

[docbop]

For the first part of your question I would say experiment and develop a preference.

A simple and direct answer to the second part of your question might be:

1. When you can play the scale with full control and even tone, in legato fashion, using eighth notes, eighth note triplets, and sixteenth notes.
2. When you can play melodic and harmonic intervals (3rd thru octave) all through it, ascending and descending
3. When you can play 3,4, and 5 note arpeggios all through it ascending and descending
4. When you can improvise with it without moving
5. When you can read with it, without moving
6. When you can enter and exit the fingering to an adjacent position/fingering with ease and security

Nice description of mechanical playing, but playing musically is what is important even when playing scales. Not moving takes you out of the sweet timbre areas of the neck. Watch Metheny, Sco, Diorio, Montgomery and others they are up and down the neck doing things that could be done in a position, but they move to get a more musical sound. Even sightreading moving helps to avoid stretches or big timbre changes.

Adam Rogers and many others talk about practicing even just scales need to sound musical. Classical music once past the beginning etudes for working on technique are all musical sounding. What's the old saying... To play music, you must practice playing music. It another one of those Bass vs Guitar things I've notice living on both side of the fence. Guitarist are really into exercices, have problem play this exercise. But when playing bass it was I'm having trouble with X okay work on this tune, have a issue with Y cool learn this tune. I want to get in to Z technique, yup work on these tunes. Music teach music.

[AlsoRan]

JazzStdnt and Doc,

You have hit upon another part of the dilemma.

Just being able to memorize intervals and notes in a position, as we all know, does not mean you have mastered the position, as I was thinking when I first started studying Jazz.

Of course, looking at point 4 on Jazz student's post, I infer that he meant being able to "play musically" in that position without moving. This is, of course, a large part of the endgame.

[Jazzstdnt]

Well I think that you guys shorted my advice but that's OK. The questions were about fingerings, not artistic transcendence.

Q:
1. How do I choose between the most common public domain fingerings?
2. How do I "master" a fingering?


My answer was basically "practice" but with focused specifics which should be helpful. The specifics included both technique and performance. Both went beyond merely playing the scale up and down.

The questions revealed a perplexing dilemma for someone. I tried to shed light and hopefully make it straightforward and less mysterious. I think I accomplished that.

[Jazzstdnt]

Nice description of mechanical playing, but playing musically is what is important even when playing scales. Not moving takes you out of the sweet timbre areas of the neck. Watch Metheny, Sco, Diorio, Montgomery and others they are up and down the neck doing things that could be done in a position, but they move to get a more musical sound. Even sightreading moving helps to avoid stretches or big timbre changes.

Adam Rogers and many others talk about practicing even just scales need to sound musical. Classical music once past the beginning etudes for working on technique are all musical sounding. What's the old saying... To play music, you must practice playing music. It another one of those Bass vs Guitar things I've notice living on both side of the fence. Guitarist are really into exercices, have problem play this exercise. But when playing bass it was I'm having trouble with X okay work on this tune, have a issue with Y cool learn this tune. I want to get in to Z technique, yup work on these tunes. Music teach music.

Yes and those great players also "burn" in position. They move, they stay, they stay, they move. I never suggested anyone do anything differently. Many professional pedagogues will point out that mastery of individual fingerings leads to overall mastery of the fretboard, don't you agree?

And yes I'm familiar with and play a little classical. But two things: (1) IMO the simple, intermediate and advanced etudes from the masters sound musical/good, and more to the point (2) classical involves a lot of separate and distinct technique exercises so I'm not sure why you didn't mention that. Classical training involves repertoire, etudes, and technique - among other topics and work. Everybody knows that.

The real debate comes up more in folk or casual styles, including jazz. That's where you will get the most advice about shortcuts and "just play the music" etc., etc., etc.

[AlsoRan]

Yes and those great players also "burn" in position. They move, they stay, they stay, they move. I never suggested anyone do anything differently. Many professional pedagogues will point out that mastery of individual fingerings leads to overall mastery of the fretboard, don't you agree?

And yes I'm familiar with and play a little classical. But two things: (1) IMO the simple, intermediate and advanced etudes from the masters sound musical/good, and more to the point (2) classical involves a lot of separate and distinct technique exercises so I'm not sure why you didn't mention that. Classical training involves repertoire, etudes, and technique - among other topics and work. Everybody knows that.

The real debate comes up more in folk or casual styles, including jazz. That's where you will get the most advice about shortcuts and "just play the music" etc., etc., etc.

Point taken. Especially the part about "burning" the shapes into muscle memory.

I still can't quickly tell you notes or intervals, but I readily recognize the shapes of the first few scales that I learned.

[Jazzstdnt]

Point taken. Especially the part about "burning" the shapes into muscle memory.

I still can't quickly tell you notes or intervals, but I readily recognize the shapes of the first few scales that I learned.

No by "burning" I meant playing the fastest/busiest/notes-per-second passages. Generally speaking that is antithetical with shifting, or at least big shifting.


And yeah, that really isn't possible without a "mastery" of the base fingerings.

[docbop]

Yes and those great players also "burn" in position. They move, they stay, they stay, they move. I never suggested anyone do anything differently. Many professional pedagogues will point out that mastery of individual fingerings leads to overall mastery of the fretboard, don't you agree?

No, but you keep doing what your "professional pedagogues" tell you and I'll continue down my path of observations and investigations. Enjoy.

[destinytot]

Almost every discussion of fingerings I have found is pretty much conditioned by a rock 'n' roll thinking --you either play a line predicated on a scale or you are strumming a chord.

I think it's probably wiser not to practise fingerings at all - unless one has a rationale based on music that one actually hears, appreciates and enjoys.

After running lots of fool's errands, I believe that behind even the most overwhelmingly complex playing - the kind which leaves me in bewildered awe - there's a rationale.

And I think 'why' matters more than 'how'. I've never transcribed Wes* - but if I did, nowadays I'd first ask "Why does that sound so good?" then "How could I go about achieving that effect?"

Because if I can't, it's not for me.

*I've taken to using my thumb (and fingers) as an antidote to an insidious addiction to picking fast for its own sake.