The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Lately I also realize for myself that speed playing could be used for different purposes. Most obvious is melodic lines, to bring a virtuoso element to the table. That's what most guitarist are going for. But it seems to me someone like Dick Dale uses speed for different purpose. I'd call it speed as a purely sound effect.

    Furthemore, one of my favorite guitarist Vernon Reid can play machine gun like runs without seemingly conveying any kind of melodic ideas. It's just an effect of a chainsaw, really rough and crude barrage of notes. Maybe he does have melodies in his head when he plays like that, but it come across as something else to my ears.

    To me, that approach is refreshing in many ways. Is anyone else seeing what I'm talking about?

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  3. #52
    joaopaz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    This part of your post is interesting to me because it gets to the core - based on your personality, what are your needs in music.

    Depending on one's personality, they might look to music to calm them down, and they like it nice, slow, and melodic. Some look to music to relieve pain and want music that can make them cry. Others like me, who are already laid back, look to music for a thrill or for excitement, so I like faster music.

    In my youth, I rode motorcycles. When I cruised around, every so often I would open the throttle up wide and burn rubber and ride a wheelie (I know, very irresponsible, but it was mainly done out on country roads although I would show off in the city sometimes, for some reason, it attracted women to me...). Otherwise, I rode the speed limit and obeyed the law. I did not want to ride one of those slow motorcycles, I needed one with power for those moments that I craved a rush.

    I feel the same way with music. And, consequently, sometimes I want to crank on the throttle and burn out. If I can't play fast, then that need for a thrill will go unfulfilled, and I might as well go back to motorcycles.
    Thanks for noticing that part, AlsoRan
    Today, on the classroom I had this young girl, 10, who loves to show off on everything, she's a cute but totally full of herself We were playing one of the early Paganini pieces (Suzuki Book 2) and by the end she was literally daring me... "faster, faster!" and trying to match the speed. She was having loads of fun with that and I couldn't help but think about this post of yours (I'd read it earlier today - and how her profile makes it so much easy for her to attemp speed with the proper spirit....
    She wasn't playing slowly, and then faster, and growing the piece carefully - she wanted it all at the first go, doing mistakes, laughing at it and just trying again and again.

    I'm sure that mindset can only be helpful! It was pretty much like your speed limits' story

  4. #53
    joaopaz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Runepune
    Don't know if this will be of any help to you, but some thoughts anyway!

    Can't get past repetition. Repetition. Repetition. Patient, relaxed repetition, that is.

    When teaching I stress the importance of economising practice. I notice that students will often repeat long passages instead of focusing on the one problem in there. Repeating e.g. 16 notes when it's really only the transition between two notes that is the problem. By only focusing on that little spot, e.g. playing some 4 notes around that spot, you will effectively train yourself four times faster.

    Practice something musical, and know the harmonic function of what you're practicing. Practicing plectrum technique with nothing but plectrum technique in mind is also some serious waste of precious time. There's no reason you can't simultaneously learn the fretboard.

    Take frequent, small breaks in your sessions. If only 15-30 second ones. And instead of one long session, do several shorter ones throughout the day.

    When it comes to plectrum technique, don't try to "impersonate" other guitarists technique. At least don't focus on it, as it may unintentionally prevent your hand from doing what it needs to do. It's impossible to see all the muscles involved in other peoples fast playing. Relax that right hand, be patient and it will most likely adjust itself to what's needed.

    Yeah, it gets somewhat harder with age But I believe one reason for that is that those young brains don't think too much about it. They just do.
    Your post sounds like all wonderful ideas.. never thought about the multiple short breaks; it's so simple but makes all the sense, as it makes you start over again and again. When you do just one long stretch you go through some things only once...
    duly noted!

    As for the short sections, concentrating on small bits of info, that's what I use the Batio exercises for; and can see the importance of it, of course... but as I mentioned I feel I experimented too much lately all along the way with different guitars, necks, picks, strings, picking methods. That took a toll in my progress, I'm sure.

    Thanks for the great post!

  5. #54
    joaopaz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    a couple thoughts on speed: Most of our jazz guitar heroes make up their speedy improv lines out of pre-planned, pre-rehearsed lines. Listen to Parker, or Martino, and you hear the same licks over and over. Why are they great in addition to fast? partly because their pet licks are great, their intent is so strong, partly because they have a large bag of them, as opposed to just a couple, and hence can draw on many different ones. Why does random Joe Bebop on the internet not sound as interesting on uptempo tunes as our heroes: one important reason is that it's because he only has four preplanned licks rather than 50 or 100, and so by the second chorus he's already recycling ideas.

    Thus, practicing non-musical lines (like ascending or descending scales) fast is only marginally useful for *playing* fast. If you want to play fast in a bebop style, and (like me) were not blessed with a very fast mind, you probably want to have a bunch of preplanned licks over familiar snippets of chord progressions rather than being able to play scales fast. This isnt a terribly creative way to improvise, but it will get you through. And in any case it is necessary, if you want to focus on the larger scale structure of your solo, to have pre-formed ideas you dont need to think about.

    Another thing about speed I've come to realize is that if your phrasing is lousy, your speed will also be lousy. The reason is that lousy phrasing means you don't know when your phrase is going to stop, hence you end up playing long lines (say of 8th notes), and as the line gets longer so does the tension in your hands, and eventually the tension destroys the flow. Everybody can play short phrases faster than long phrases, and I believe tension is the reason. Relaxing is also important, and in particular, if you are going to play 32 bars of 8th notes at a fast tempo you better be loosey-goosey.
    Thanks for this post, also!
    It's the one I had in mind (as I read it earlier too ) when I was writing my loooong one above! Lots to think about, in a great way!

  6. #55
    joaopaz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    That called to mind the line of St. Augustine about time. (Not musical time but, uh, time time.)

    "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."
    Precious quote! Loved it.

  7. #56
    joaopaz Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Lately I also realize for myself that speed playing could be used for different purposes. Most obvious is melodic lines, to bring a virtuoso element to the table. That's what most guitarist are going for. But it seems to me someone like Dick Dale uses speed for different purpose. I'd call it speed as a purely sound effect.

    Furthemore, one of my favorite guitarist Vernon Reid can play machine gun like runs without seemingly conveying any kind of melodic ideas. It's just an effect of a chainsaw, really rough and crude barrage of notes. Maybe he does have melodies in his head when he plays like that, but it come across as something else to my ears.

    To me, that approach is refreshing in many ways. Is anyone else seeing what I'm talking about?
    Coltrane is known for his "sheets of sound" I guess that falls on the same department!

    Roger that, I see what you mean, and its great you brought it up the concept of speed as "an effect". Great catch, Sir!

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    a couple thoughts on speed: Most of our jazz guitar heroes make up their speedy improv lines out of pre-planned, pre-rehearsed lines. Listen to Parker, or Martino, and you hear the same licks over and over. Why are they great in addition to fast? partly because their pet licks are great, their intent is so strong, partly because they have a large bag of them, as opposed to just a couple, and hence can draw on many different ones. Why does random Joe Bebop on the internet not sound as interesting on uptempo tunes as our heroes: one important reason is that it's because he only has four preplanned licks rather than 50 or 100, and so by the second chorus he's already recycling ideas.
    This is very true. I was listening to 'Momentum' by Jimmy Raney yesterday, and he occasionally inserts a fast, complex (and musical) 16th line into his solos. But as you listen to each track, you notice this line is actually very similar each time, maybe with a few small tweaks.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A
    I do not think that speed unto itself is important. When I hear instrumentalists of any kind (but especially guitarists) plying quickly without feeling, the music has a dizzying affect almost to the point of nausea. It sounds soulless and almost inhuman. Music needs to breathe, melodies need to be melodic. I don't like music that sounds like a practice session.

    Music needs to be like a conversation. Complete with commas, periods, and moments of reflection.

    Music needs to be like a journey. Complete with time to smell the roses and breaks for lunch.

    Having said that an occasional flurry of notes played quickly can definitely add to musics intensity. But flurry after flurry is deafening and monotonous.

    Just my opinion
    ^^^Nailed it^^^

    I see music as a conversation. When I'm conversing with someone, it's a huge turnoff if they keep talking in run-on sentences, breathless, and no opportunity to respond. At that point it becomes a harangue, with the listener given no opportunity to absorb what has been heard.

    Quoth Paul Simon:

    Slow down, you move too fast --
    you got to make the morning last, just
    kicking down the cobblestone,
    looking for fun and feeling groovy.
    I grew up loving and learning shred (to my limited abilities), and yes, there's a place for speed in music.

    Blather, however, should be abjured at all costs. Fast or slow, each note should mean something, should move the piece forward.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    This is very true. I was listening to 'Momentum' by Jimmy Raney yesterday, and he occasionally inserts a fast, complex (and musical) 16th line into his solos. But as you listen to each track, you notice this line is actually very similar each time, maybe with a few small tweaks.
    I feel the same way about Kenny Burrell. He has an occasional flurry of notes but they are well placed and musically meaningful. He never overplays.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Lately I also realize for myself that speed playing could be used for different purposes. Most obvious is melodic lines, to bring a virtuoso element to the table. That's what most guitarist are going for. But it seems to me someone like Dick Dale uses speed for different purpose. I'd call it speed as a purely sound effect.

    Furthemore, one of my favorite guitarist Vernon Reid can play machine gun like runs without seemingly conveying any kind of melodic ideas. It's just an effect of a chainsaw, really rough and crude barrage of notes. Maybe he does have melodies in his head when he plays like that, but it come across as something else to my ears.

    To me, that approach is refreshing in many ways. Is anyone else seeing what I'm talking about?
    I understand and agree with your assessment of Vernon Reid, and Cult of Personality is a great example of barrage the listener with notes. It is, at least to my ears, almost a Free Jazz sheets of sound that pepper the listener with bullets of notes.

    He combines it with various chordal riffs and melodic riffs and it is one of my favorite solos in Rock. I have tried to learn it a couple of times, note for note but I don't have the technique (yet?)

    Yes sir, that is one whirling dervish application of speed that many found to be very exciting. 19 millions views on Youtube must tell you something. For the curious, he starts his main solo at the 3:00 mark.


  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I understand and agree with your assessment of Vernon Reid, and Cult of Personality is a great example of barrage the listener with notes. It is, at least to my ears, almost a Free Jazz sheets of sound that pepper the listener with bullets of notes.

    He combines it with various chordal riffs and melodic riffs and it is one of my favorite solos in Rock. I have tried to learn it a couple of times, note for note but I don't have the technique (yet?)

    Yes sir, that is one whirling dervish application of speed that many found to be very exciting. 19 millions views on Youtube must tell you something. For the curious, he starts his main solo at the 3:00 mark.

    The second solo in this song is one of my all-time faves, in part for its controlled abandon, and in part for for one of the few uses of a Floyd Rose that is actually musical. Reid became a favorite immediately when I heard him in 88 for his willingness to, ahem, colour outside the lines -- bop lines with a heavy-metal tone, criss-crossing genres inside one song. While he got a bad rap back then for being fast but scattershot, his playing always spoke to me moreso than the regimented arpeggios of the hordes of poodleheads.

    He knew how to let loose, and a little slop didn't scare him.

  13. #62

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    Another thing about speed, and I am guilty of this. I don't like it when the notes don't ring out.

    I heard a Jazz guitarist the other day at a Jazz gig, and he had some nice fast runs but he missed a lot of notes in the run Combine that with his lack of volume ( I am going to start a thread on volume in gigs) and the excitement left the room when it was his turn to solo.

    His runs had lots of dead notes. I felt badly or him, but who knows what goes on in a particular artist's mind. Maybe that was what he wanted to play and how he expressed himself. If so, then he succeeded.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    The second solo in this song is one of my all-time faves, in part for its controlled abandon, and in part for for one of the few uses of a Floyd Rose that is actually musical. Reid became a favorite immediately when I heard him in 88 for his willingness to, ahem, colour outside the lines -- bop lines with a heavy-metal tone, criss-crossing genres inside one song. While he got a bad rap back then for being fast but scattershot, his playing always spoke to me moreso than the regimented arpeggios of the hordes of poodleheads.

    He knew how to let loose, and a little slop didn't scare him.
    Yeah totally! Even back then his kind of speed playing was more appealing to me than your average shredder. People were talking Steve Vai, Yngwie blah blah, and I'm like nah, listen to ths guy!

    My problem with most speed demons is no matter how virtuosic they are, it still sounds laborous to my ears. It's like they are ambitious, and it wears me out. Vernon never had that problem. Sometimes I feel like he almost trolls shredding style, and and brings smile!

  15. #64

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    Playing fast does seem to be parallel to talking fast. There is a fine line between excited communication and nonsense, and where you are compared to the line depends on the listener.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Yeah totally! Even back then his kind of speed playing was more appealing to me than your average shredder. People were talking Steve Vai, Yngwie blah blah, and I'm like nah, listen to ths guy!

    My problem with most speed demons is no matter how virtuosic they are, it still sounds laborous to my ears. It's like they are ambitious, and it wears me out. Vernon never had that problem. Sometimes I feel like he almost trolls shredding style, and and brings smile!
    lol, good way to put it.

    I get the feeling most of the poodleheads sat practicing scales for eight hours a day, but Vernon was out gigging.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    lol, good way to put it.

    I get the feeling most of the poodleheads sat practicing scales for eight hours a day, but Vernon was out gigging.
    Sounds great, reminds me of Jimmy Page.... Rock and Roll

  18. #67

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    Speed is a great jazz skill to have, and you can listen to old recordings of guys hitting some standards with the sole intent of playing it as fast as humanly possible, and those cats could hang at those crazy tempos.

    I think in the past there were a generation or two where virtuosic skills were considered a requirement for jazz musicians.

    But..after spending 18 months focusing on attaining some great speed about a dozen years back, once attained....it must be MAINTAINED.

    In a bygone era, you could have gone out and gigged and jammed with OTHERS nightly to keep those chops up, 'cuz if you don't use it, you lose it.

    Anyway, without the opportunities to gig and jam often, I found the speed slipping because I wasn't putting all that focus on speed in the woodshed anymore.
    So be it.

  19. #68

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    Coordination is usually a big problem with speed... left hand does it fast, right hand does it fast --- but together they don't.



    One of the thing was taught...

    Usually when we think about playing phrase or notes we consider it's teh right hand that controls it, right hand is the beginning of the sound at least/
    But musically it is as much the left hand (or even more),
    thinking you play notes and sounds with your left hand rather than with your right.
    It's like your left hand is pressing the keys and they sound (or should sound)... so you right hand is a bit like organ pipes.

    Of course it's not really like this because right hand is resposible for atack etc.

    But it's a good way to work with coordination: you left hand should stop a string in musical timing as you hear it, and right hand just do soundjob - 'blow the air in the pipes'...

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Coordination is usually a big problem with speed... left hand does it fast, right hand does it fast --- but together they don't.



    One of the thing was taught...

    Usually when we think about playing phrase or notes we consider it's teh right hand that controls it, right hand is the beginning of the sound at least/
    But musically it is as much the left hand (or even more),
    thinking you play notes and sounds with your left hand rather than with your right.
    It's like your left hand is pressing the keys and they sound (or should sound)... so you right hand is a bit like organ pipes.

    Of course it's not really like this because right hand is resposible for atack etc.

    But it's a good way to work with coordination: you left hand should stop a string in musical timing as you hear it, and right hand just do soundjob - 'blow the air in the pipes'...
    Subdivision.

    Left hand must be subdividing as accurately as the right.

    Paradoxically, working on the accuracy of left hand fretting for legato can help with picking. And I mean both physical and timing accuracy.

    Personally I have switched to using a hybrid pick/legato approach, so the two things go hand in hand.

    But - I have to be careful (as I play with medium strings) not to over do it on the pull offs - accuracy and speed of the movement more important than pressure. And of course, the accuracy of the timing.

    Can you play a scale legato at 60bpm and slower with transitions between notes absolutely instant?

    Lennie Tristano had an exercise like this IIRC. Tristano taught Satriani. IMO there's no coincidence Satch ended up playing the guitar the way he did :-)

  21. #70
    I did a lot of cleaning up left-hand stuff in the last year or two and found that an unintended consequence was "automatic " better picking technique. I wonder how often our assumed problems with picking technique are actually more to do with left-hand issues, whether mental or physical?

  22. #71

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    Can you play a scale legato at 60bpm and slower with transitions between notes absolutely instant?
    I think I can...

    You mean all legato? With no picking at all?

    ANd what instrument - acoustic or electric?

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Speed is a great jazz skill to have, and you can listen to old recordings of guys hitting some standards with the sole intent of playing it as fast as humanly possible, and those cats could hang at those crazy tempos.
    Yeah, remember when playing the head and being able to improvise on Donna Lee was pretty much a requirement because it was going to be called?

  24. #73

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    Yeah, remember when playing the head and being able to improvise on Donna Lee was pretty much a requirement because it was going to be called?
    Was it really? I mean I can't remember Donna Lee to be often called in jams...
    usually other bop tunes like Anthropology were called

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Was it really? I mean I can't remember Donna Lee to be often called in jams...
    usually other bop tunes like Anthropology were called
    Better be pretty confident you can pull that head off if you call Donna...I know a few drummers who'd be like "yeah, hotshot? try it at this tempo!"

    Call it and flub it, and it's like "who's the a-hole now?"

  26. #75

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    Better be pretty confident you can pull that head off if you call Donna...I know a few drummers who'd be like "yeah, hotshot? try it at this tempo!"

    Call it and flub it, and it's like "who's the a-hole now?"
    It always seemed to me that playing Donna Lee is a little bit 'show off' thing... like: look I practiced a lot and now I do it...

    Not that it's bad but it's like a label a bit...

    Maybe partly it's because of Jaco's version.. it was so astonishing... that it became kind of symbol of virtuosity... sometimes it sems nobody listens to teh tune just watching: if the guy can make it at that tempo without fail