The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by emicad
    I contacted Tim to get the book, it seems a great resource.
    I can't understand if audio samples are included in the book or do I need to get the DVD? An audio CD would be enough for me, just for reference.

    PS: I did some online research and I discovered the my thumb is probably double jointed. I'm not 100% sure and I don't care that much, I was just curious.
    Pretty sure most, if not all, of the clips are on YouTube.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by dasein
    Pretty sure most, if not all, of the clips are on YouTube.
    Oh, well... that's great. Thanks.

  4. #28

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    Ok, after a little bit of research, here's what I've got,

    It would appear that Wes's default position is,

    the point of thumb contacting the strings is apporox 1 inch behind the neck pickup, ie. completely clear of both the pickup and the mounting ring. This is going to affect the amount of resistance that the strings offer at that point in their scale length.

    the index finger is fully extended, when at rest, the fingertip is basically on the pickguard binding, more on this later,

    the middle finger is fully extended, and touching the guitars soundboard,

    the ring finger is fully extended, right down to the waist of the guitar, often at rest on the top binding,

    the pickguard mounting bracket is in between the ring and little fingers !

    the little finger is fully extended, down to the waist of the guitar, often at rest on the binding, often placed touching the rear side of the pickguard bracket,

    the wrist is lifted clear off the strings at all times,

    the thumb itself is curved back, and all motion is generated from the large base joint,

    the whole hand, is relaxed at all times.

    The main point of the short Guitar Player magazine article is to point out that when the thumb makes a down stroke, the index finger, actually moves upward,
    the article describes this motion as being like a birds' beak,
    however the upward motion of the index finger is really down to the relaxed nature of the right hand posture. The index finger motion is not used to sound any strings at all. The article suggests that if the thumb is moving down by 2 &1/2 inches, the index finger is only moving up by about an inch, The whole movement being controlled by the muscles of the palm.

    From the clips that I watched, I'm not sure if I would consider this to be quite correct, particularly when Wes is playing single note lines, however his index finger does seem to move more when he gets into the octave playing.

    That's about as much as I can offer personally, but this clip has some of the most enlightening camera angles on the right hand,

    R.I.P. Ronnie
    Last edited by pubylakeg; 01-19-2017 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #29

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    I don't consider myself an expert but I'll share my experience based on practice and study of the thumb technique.
    Despite the fact that my hands are probably half the size of Wes' hands, I use pretty much the same "default" position.
    It came by itself over time, I never forced myself to use my thumb in a specific way except for the attack angle which I developed in order to contact the strings with the flesh of my thumb, not the nail. Use the blisters on your thumb as a reference to see if the angle is right, you'll have to deal with that.
    Picking with a "free" thumb like classical guitar players do, can produce quite some stress on the thumb's nerve if you use the flesh of your thumb instead of the nail. The attack angle is completely different, the motion is way wider and you're picking both chords and single lines using only your thumb. That's pretty strenuous and uncomfortable for most people.
    If you anchor your picking hand to the pickguard and/or guitar body, your thumb's nerve will work a lot less and the hand's mucles will do most of the work. I don't know if it's important how much fingers you use and how you use them to do it, honestly. I put my entire hand there and it works for me. My hand is relaxed and I don't think I move any of the anchored fingers during the picking.

    EDIT: A couple of infos about right hand positioning.
    I use 012-050 Thomastik flatwounds and I usually flatpick between the fingerboard and the neck pickup of my ES-165 (see my avatar to get an idea). This helps removing some of the pick attack and gives you a mellower, almost "thumby" sound, if you choose the right pick. I use a Dunlop JazzTone 204.

    When I use my thumb I contact the strings approximately 1/1,5 centimeters behind the neck pickup.
    Since the sound is already pretty mellow, it gives you more attack and definition during single lines. For chords and octaves I pick near the fingerboard sometimes.
    You can get similar results using roundwound strings like Jim Mullen do or open the guitar tone a little bit.
    Wes tone was very mellow, but definitely brighter than you think.
    Last edited by emicad; 01-20-2017 at 04:18 AM.

  6. #30

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    It looks like he may sometimes use the thing that some guitarists call economy picking (Frank Gambale comes to mind) sweep the thumb (downstroke) on 2 adjacent strings ex A 7th fr D string to B 4th fret G string then either pick the next note C with an up thumb or hammer

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
    I play with my thumb and am not double jointed and am no where any where close to sounding like Wes ...
    Me, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Double jointed or not, just about everything Wes did with that thumb was a downstroke.
    That has been my MO since day one. (Don't have a double jointed thumb, BTW.) I think more than anything else it is a natural comfort type of thing. Strumming, plucking, etc. can't really get any simpler than thumb downstrokes. No gripping, pinching, plastic contacting with strings, etc. as with using a pick. Now, that said, I have changed my style to incorporate both upstrokes with my thumb and upstrokes, or alternate picking, with my index finger. I use other fingers as well but for single line note playing I use my thumb and index finger predominately.

    And, like you I am not aware of a book about Montgomery that just concentrates on his right hand technique.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarfitch
    It looks like he may sometimes use the thing that some guitarists call economy picking (Frank Gambale comes to mind) sweep the thumb (downstroke) on 2 adjacent strings ex A 7th fr D string to B 4th fret G string then either pick the next note C with an up thumb or hammer
    Yeah, that's exactly what he did. It's some sort of rest stroke technique applied to thumb.

  9. #33

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    what brilliant camerwork capturing his genius...wonder what the british guitarists thought..no books around then...now theres plenty on the market to study with...thnks for sharing that

  10. #34

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    I've watched other players (up close) doing Wes-style single-note lines. While I've no idea how they did it, I'm pretty certain that 'being double-jointed' is a red herring. "What one man can do, another can do!" If you're going to go down that road, "Kill the bear!"

  11. #35

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    You're absolutely right.
    Having a double-jointed thumb helps finding the best point of contact with the strings for this kind of picking (and Benson picking too), but it's not mandatory at all. There are plenty of guitarists who do this with "normal" thumbs.
    You can clearly see that Wes' thumb was double-jointed but I'm not sure that he was "able to strech his thumb backwards until it touched his hand", like some people seems to believe. It's useless for guitar playing, why would he do something like that?
    You can be double-jointed in many ways. My fingers joints (inclunding my thumb) are hyper-extendable so I'm pretty much double-jointed, but the rest of my libe are not. There's a lot of confusion about this matter.

  12. #36

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    Can't think of one. Basically if you are serious, study Wes's technique for a decade or two mining for knowledge any way you can from old videos, recordings, interviews with those who saw him play etc.

    If you or anyone wrote a book I would totes read it :-)

    Good luck!

  13. #37

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    Funny, when I was 8 years old I started playing the banjo. I switched to guitar a few years later but found that I was quicker using a thumb pick rather than using a regular guitar pick. It just felt more comfortable because I was used to the banjo technique. Over the years, the guitar pick felt fine and I eventually nixed the thumb pick for several years. It wasn't until I started playing jazz about 10 years ago that I nixed all picks and returned to using my bare thumb. It took some getting used to again, but it eventually felt natural. Of course Wes Montgomery was my biggest influence and still is my favorite jazz guitarist. One of the things I've noticed about Wes is the way he holds his guitar. It's not sitting straight up, a lot of times it's sitting almost at a 45 degree angle and probably the reason he uses a guitar strap while he's sitting down. Mileage goes a long way, the more you play, the more comfortable and faster you will become. For me, I mostly play for the therapy, the fun is not particularly playing fast but appreciating every note and the mellow vibe it brings.

  14. #38

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    Wasn't Jeff Beck a thumb-only guy?

  15. #39

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    i mostly play for the therapy, the fun is not particularly playing fast but appreciating every note and the mellow vibe it brings.
    .......... Me too...that was Stan Tracey on piano in that clip... what an honor to play for Wes...not sure who others were...
    Last edited by voxss; 02-01-2017 at 09:22 AM.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Wasn't Jeff Beck a thumb-only guy?
    I think that he has used a variety of right hand techniques, but has never been a thumbs only guy. The last few years he has shunned a pick.

  17. #41

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    If there was a book on Wes right hand technique it would probably be one page long.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    If there was a book on Wes right hand technique it would probably be one page long.
    Either that or it covers things besides guitar playing.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    Either that or it covers things besides guitar playing.
    Right. Titled something like 'Things You Can Do With Your Thumb'

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Right. Titled something like 'Things You Can Do With Your Thumb'
    I'm all ears!

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    If there was a book on Wes right hand technique it would probably be one page long.
    Yeah - with just a thumbnail sketch...

  22. #46

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    This thread is going down the drain, I see.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by emicad
    This thread is going down the drain, I see.
    Aww, it's gonna be fine

    Wes Montgomery right hand technique book-ec63257a-2bbb-48d0-9b74-0e27f8b25ac9_text-gif

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by pubylakeg
    Ok, after a little bit of research, here's what I've got,

    It would appear that Wes's default position is,

    the point of thumb contacting the strings is apporox 1 inch behind the neck pickup, ie. completely clear of both the pickup and the mounting ring. This is going to affect the amount of resistance that the strings offer at that point in their scale length.

    the index finger is fully extended, when at rest, the fingertip is basically on the pickguard binding, more on this later,

    the middle finger is fully extended, and touching the guitars soundboard,

    the ring finger is fully extended, right down to the waist of the guitar, often at rest on the top binding,

    the pickguard mounting bracket is in between the ring and little fingers !

    the little finger is fully extended, down to the waist of the guitar, often at rest on the binding, often placed touching the rear side of the pickguard bracket,

    the wrist is lifted clear off the strings at all times,

    the thumb itself is curved back, and all motion is generated from the large base joint,

    the whole hand, is relaxed at all times.

    The main point of the short Guitar Player magazine article is to point out that when the thumb makes a down stroke, the index finger, actually moves upward,
    the article describes this motion as being like a birds' beak,
    however the upward motion of the index finger is really down to the relaxed nature of the right hand posture. The index finger motion is not used to sound any strings at all. The article suggests that if the thumb is moving down by 2 &1/2 inches, the index finger is only moving up by about an inch, The whole movement being controlled by the muscles of the palm.

    From the clips that I watched, I'm not sure if I would consider this to be quite correct, particularly when Wes is playing single note lines, however his index finger does seem to move more when he gets into the octave playing.

    That's about as much as I can offer personally, but this clip has some of the most enlightening camera angles on the right hand,

    R.I.P. Ronnie
    So this guy posts one of the most revelatory things I've seen on the forum, and now he's banned.

    I hope it was for a bloody good reason.

    Also, downward thumb slanting... Gypsy thumbing....

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    ... downward thumb slanting...
    Like that idea a lot - don't like my heavy flatwounds so much (nor the fact that pubylakeg isn't around).

  26. #50

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    outrageous..Banned.. jazz guitar forum claims that its klatch of feebleminded, addlepated gutter-bloods is a colony of heaven called to obey God by controlling your bank account, your employment, your personal safety, and your mind. While that happens to be pure fantasy from the world of make-believe, one important fact to consider is that its most snarky tactic is to fabricate a phony war between witless roisterers and sticky-fingered bludgers.. If I have said anything that understates the truth and indicates my having a patience that allows me to settle for anything less than beating jazz guitar forum at its own game, I beg God to forgive me.