The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    Hey Jake... yea, your picking has really improved from the last time I watched a vid from you. I personally believe slant is one of those basic requirements for faster technique. Not so much to just play fast... but to articulate as notated or as phrased.

    The being able to play fast or slow thing is all BS. You either have put the time into developing the technique... or you haven't and your left with whatever technique you have by chance.

    Being able to perform fast or slow music... with respect to having good technique, isn't about putting in time rehearsing a lick etc... it's about how your able to perform something the first time. Granted it should get better with practiced, but that is about performance, not technique

    Just like sight reading.... you don't end up being able to sight read because of natural abilities, you either put in the time and developed the skills... or you didn't. If you just keep trying to read music..... without understanding what techniques you need on the guitar and an understanding of what notated music is.... again your left with the BS one liners... you either can or can't sight read.

    There are obviously different techniques, different physical aspects of our bodies etc... but without developing some type of organization with respect to technique, which leads to being able to repeat and eventually becomes instinctive or natural for oneself...
    the one liners will become facts of life.

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  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Jake... yea, your picking has really improved from the last time I watched a vid from you. I personally believe slant is one of those basic requirements for faster technique. Not so much to just play fast... but to articulate as notated or as phrased.

    The being able to play fast or slow thing is all BS. You either have put the time into developing the technique... or you haven't and your left with whatever technique you have by chance.

    Being able to perform fast or slow music... with respect to having good technique, isn't about putting in time rehearsing a lick etc... it's about how your able to perform something the first time. Granted it should get better with practiced, but that is about performance, not technique
    Totally agree with all of this.

    I'd add that chops are focussed on the music. Sometimes you'll play another style, or a composer will write something for you that's really hard to play... Then you learn something.

    Also no school of technique has everything. You always make choices.

    Also - the instrument is an illusion (Hal Galper.) Hearing a phrase in detail in your mind before you play it is more than 80% of the work. Really. Don't get too involved in the instrument all the time. I'm starting to understand this in my own playing. Stay loose.

    Just like sight reading.... you don't end up being able to sight read because of natural abilities, you either put in the time and developed the skills... or you didn't. If you just keep trying to read music..... without understanding what techniques you need on the guitar and an understanding of what notated music is.... again your left with the BS one liners... you either can or can't sight read.
    Ain't that the truth.

    I believe the same thing about time/feel and rhythm. It's just that some people develop these skills so early on they are like walking or eating with a fork to them. But that doesn't mean they can't be learned in adult life. We are flexible beings.

    Pick technique will probably be something you address later in life.

    There are obviously different techniques, different physical aspects of our bodies etc... but without developing some type of organization with respect to technique, which leads to being able to repeat and eventually becomes instinctive or natural for oneself...
    the one liners will become facts of life.
    Nicely put. Great post, Reg.

  4. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Jake... yea, your picking has really improved from the last time I watched a vid from you. I personally believe slant is one of those basic requirements for faster technique. Not so much to just play fast... but to articulate as notated or as phrased.

    The being able to play fast or slow thing is all BS. You either have put the time into developing the technique... or you haven't and your left with whatever technique you have by chance.

    Being able to perform fast or slow music... with respect to having good technique, isn't about putting in time rehearsing a lick etc... it's about how your able to perform something the first time. Granted it should get better with practiced, but that is about performance, not technique

    Just like sight reading.... you don't end up being able to sight read because of natural abilities, you either put in the time and developed the skills... or you didn't. If you just keep trying to read music..... without understanding what techniques you need on the guitar and an understanding of what notated music is.... again your left with the BS one liners... you either can or can't sight read.

    There are obviously different techniques, different physical aspects of our bodies etc... but without developing some type of organization with respect to technique, which leads to being able to repeat and eventually becomes instinctive or natural for oneself...
    the one liners will become facts of life.
    Hey thanks Reg. I think the one liners are often the conventional wisdom of mediocrity. A lot of "common knowledge" is the knowledge of folks at a common level, regarding things besides guitar technique/jazz playing. I think there's often a reason that some people reach a higher level of success beyond talent/luck.

    I'm not a professional jazz player but I think I can see now where the one liners, conventional wisdom can get most people stuck, especially regarding picking technique.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well, I dunno. Practice what interests you, nothing more.
    Sure, but be realistic. That's all I'm saying.

    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 11-04-2016 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    likely just throwing a lot of fuel to the fire but here we go: ...
    Nice video JakeAcci, seems we all adressed the problem quite alike, trying similar things ...
    gentle plucks, moving fretting fingers ...
    I think you did not try heavy shuffle swing, you know, the horse galloping rhythm, that way you can use economy picking, combine with alternate here and there, after some practice 155 may become medium tempo ... just thinking.

    In regard to my attempts, you are considerably cleaner, at least in overall impression.
    Namely, for some stuff you say is "swiping" I'd say it was "clean, with tiniest possible ammount of pick being used." For me, swiping is only when I play "through" muted string, on the way to the wanted one. In playing this exercise, I think I do it with less "full swipes" than what you showed, but if we count "clean swipes" overall you do it far less.
    In my real playing I go heavilly through muted strings, it's that clunky sound that makes me feel alive. No joke.

    Which brings me to another point in regard to S theory. In theory S brings the pick out of a plane of the strings, where plane is plane flat, as plane planes are. However, plane of the strings on my tele is not really a plane, it is a segment of a cilinder with 7.25" radius, if strings would follow curvature of the neck. In reality it's not that much curved, but still it is quite a curve. It is so curved that going outside from 6th to ...., the move I'd have to make in order to completely clear above 5th would be so ridiculously angled, that it is practically not an option. Of course I do S, we all do, it is impossible not to, but I do it so that on the way I'm still swiping the 5th. From 5th to 4th it is kess exagerated, 4th and 3rd are at same level. then image is mirrored for high strings. You could say strings lay in 5 different planes intersecting @ 4 different angles where 2 and 2 are complementary. Is S theory addressing this?

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    Last edited by Vladan; 11-04-2016 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #106

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    Finally got to watch the video on a bigger screen.

    Armchair quarterbacking here, as your picking technique is far better than mine, but I notice two things...I think, my eyes might be deceiving me...wouldn't be the first time...


    I feel like I see a little more movement in the fingers gripping the pick when you get to the "lick in question."

    Your elbow seems much more free in the earlier examples in the video, even leaving contact with the guitar and coming back...in the "lick in question," your elbow crease seems a little more firmly planted on the upper curve of the guitar.

    Chicken or egg question, I assume both of those things could build tension, which could slow you down...or is there a level of frustration (and I mean that in a light sense, you don't seem to be getting bent out of shape or anything) that's coming with "the lick" that creates an expectation/builds tension before you even go in?

    I dunno, just observations, hopefully sort of helpful.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci







    For some reason the above figure reminds me of this...




  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    About 120 going in cold before it fell apart.

    Then I remembered I'm a hybrid picker. Got my middle finger involved, was over 155 with no warm up.

    So my answer: I'd cheat.
    THIS is how I have to play Seven come Eleven.

  10. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Finally got to watch the video on a bigger screen.

    Armchair quarterbacking here, as your picking technique is far better than mine, but I notice two things...I think, my eyes might be deceiving me...wouldn't be the first time...


    I feel like I see a little more movement in the fingers gripping the pick when you get to the "lick in question."

    Your elbow seems much more free in the earlier examples in the video, even leaving contact with the guitar and coming back...in the "lick in question," your elbow crease seems a little more firmly planted on the upper curve of the guitar.

    Chicken or egg question, I assume both of those things could build tension, which could slow you down...or is there a level of frustration (and I mean that in a light sense, you don't seem to be getting bent out of shape or anything) that's coming with "the lick" that creates an expectation/builds tension before you even go in?

    I dunno, just observations, hopefully sort of helpful.
    finally getting the chance to respond - thanks for this, I actually think you are on to something. It seems like my 'fast' technique has much more elbow and wrist movement, whereas when I try to do things like the LIQ (hah) i start trying to use my fingers to move the pick which doesn't really work the way I do it. I will experiment. definitely interesting.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    finally getting the chance to respond - thanks for this, I actually think you are on to something. It seems like my 'fast' technique has much more elbow and wrist movement, whereas when I try to do things like the LIQ (hah) i start trying to use my fingers to move the pick which doesn't really work the way I do it. I will experiment. definitely interesting.
    Jake,

    I could be wrong, but I would swear that Andreas Oberg did the same thing in a video in which he played a Jazz Blues. At a certain point, he really take off into "hyperspeed" and it looked to be predominantly elbow movement supplemented with a little wrist. And then, when he dropped down to his normal fast speed, it appeared to be back to all wrist movement.

    Maybe great players, when the go into their top speed do it because they can squeeze out a few more beats per minute. Maybe they know they can't, nor do they have to maintain it for very long, so they use it kind of the way race car driver's use a shot of nitrous oxide.

    Check out this video particularly at around 2:12 and 2:30.


  12. #111

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    I haven't tried Nitrous Oxide. Not sure it would help with my playing tho.

  13. #112

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    Around 120 as written and not for long.

    But, if I had to play it faster in a reading situation, I'd do pick, pull-off on one string.

    I think about calligraphy. One brush, one color, one stroke and it's art.

    Or, you can do a complex oil painting that you work on for a year, and that's art too.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I haven't tried Nitrous Oxide. Not sure it would help with my playing tho.

    Racers have to be careful with the nitrous oxide. You can disintegrate your connecting rods. I am thinking some picking styles can do the same to connective tissue?


  15. #114

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    Sorry, Jake. Back to the thread.

  16. #115
    It's all fun and games until somebody stops practicing technique.

  17. #116

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    I am reminded of an experience a few years back. I was at a jam with a young player named Scooter. As I recall he was in college, majoring in guitar. Great player. We were both trying to read a passage from a tune called Popo by Chico Pinheiro. It's the interlude after the solos. Not a difficult line at a moderate tempo, but challenging for me at full speed. I couldn't pick it with any of the obvious fingerings -- not alternate and not sweep. Scooter could dash it off perfectly either way.

    Which brings me to my point. I think it had a lot to do with our nervous systems. I've since worked on the passage, but there's no way I'll be able to play it with the fingering Scooter used.

    I had to re-finger it to employ rather drastic position shifts to get multiple notes on the same string. Using that device, along with pull-offs and slides I could get it up to speed maybe two times out of three (which is squarely in "keep practicing" territory. My approach does not sound like I picked every note. Not necessarily worse, but not the same sound.

    The point is, there are differences in our nervous systems and we have our limits.

  18. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I am reminded of an experience a few years back. I was at a jam with a young player named Scooter. As I recall he was in college, majoring in guitar. Great player. We were both trying to read a passage from a tune called Popo by Chico Pinheiro. It's the interlude after the solos. Not a difficult line at a moderate tempo, but challenging for me at full speed. I couldn't pick it with any of the obvious fingerings -- not alternate and not sweep. Scooter could dash it off perfectly either way.

    Which brings me to my point. I think it had a lot to do with our nervous systems. I've since worked on the passage, but there's no way I'll be able to play it with the fingering Scooter used.

    I had to re-finger it to employ rather drastic position shifts to get multiple notes on the same string. Using that device, along with pull-offs and slides I could get it up to speed maybe two times out of three (which is squarely in "keep practicing" territory. My approach does not sound like I picked every note. Not necessarily worse, but not the same sound.

    The point is, there are differences in our nervous systems and we have our limits.
    RP that seems anecdotal and defeatist! I have made huge strides with things I once thought were just impossible. We all have limits, sure, but I’m interested in the exploration.


    I think the most relevant issue might be - how much time do you have, what are your goals, and what do you want to prioritize? For me, my practice is more just about what’s fun and interesting for me rather than any particular performance or recording goals.

  19. #118

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    Nah you should just give up. If you can't do it now you'll never be able to do it.











    *sarcasm*

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I haven't tried Nitrous Oxide. Not sure it would help with my playing tho.
    Somebody say N2O?

    Happy New Year. Pleasant Dreams.


  21. #120

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    The first time a novice tries to barre an F chord, it probably feels impossible. And, sure enough, after a short amount of practice, it seems easy.

    But, in my experience, not everything is like that. There are techniques that press against the limits of one's nervous system.

    Fortunately, there are a lot of different ways to accomplish things on guitar.

    So, I would advocate recognizing limits where they exist (definitely not giving up too soon) and spending one's time in ways which are maximally productive.

    My impression is that playing great jazz requires two basic skills. One, you need to be able to generate, in your mind's ear, something interesting to play. Two, you need to be able to make that music come out of the speaker.

    Finding something interesting to play requires, above all else, training your ear. I interpret all of our interest in chords, scales and other theory as a way to find interesting sounds. I know that some people find that approach useful. Others do it the more traditional way: listening and transcribing. Like everything in guitar, there are great players who do it one way and equally great players who do it a completely different way. Andres Varady made the cover of GP at about age 14 on merit (he's a great player) without any theoretical knowledge whatsover. He could hear it all. Others are Berklee trained, are encyclopedic, use the knowledge and sound great too.

    Making it come out the speaker means you have the technique you need to play the music you hear. Having more technique will probably expand what your mind generates, so it's a two way street. But, I tend to see the technique issues as secondary. That is, figure out what you want to play first, and work on the technique to make it happen.

    So, generally speaking, my thought is that the quickest path to playing great guitar is to focus on ear training and the technique you need to play what you hear.

    Of course, others will have very different ideas and those may work well too.

    To bring it back to the OP -- I spent plenty of time (measured in decades of daily practice) trying to get my right hand to do fancy things. It didn't work well for me and I wouldn't mind having some of that time back. I think I've made more progress by accepting some limitations, working around them, and focusing on music and individual style rather than technique.

    Your mileage, of course, may vary.

  22. #121
    Apologies RP - I mean no disrespect but I feel like I addressed these opinions earlier in the thread. I'm not going to be convinced to not be interested in my original question and instead focus my efforts on ear training. Again, no offense intended, but I believe the position and stating of it in this context to be missing the point entirely. There have been about a thousand threads on this forum and others on whether playing fast is "good" and I think the discussion has been beat to death - even in this very thread. I'm not going to make an argument for the 'usefulness' of my question beyond "it interests me."

  23. #122
    this is sort of the equivalent of somebody posting on a cooking forum asking for cake batter recipes and somebody saying "you know I used to bake cakes but then I realized that cookies are really the best dessert, so I think any effort searching for a good cake batter recipe should be spent on cookies - cookies are where the true value of dessert lies."

    Apologies again if my tone comes off agitated - to be honest I do a get a little agitated at the repetitive nature of some of these discussions, especially when this isn't even the discussion!

  24. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Jake,

    I could be wrong, but I would swear that Andreas Oberg did the same thing in a video in which he played a Jazz Blues. At a certain point, he really take off into "hyperspeed" and it looked to be predominantly elbow movement supplemented with a little wrist. And then, when he dropped down to his normal fast speed, it appeared to be back to all wrist movement.

    Maybe great players, when the go into their top speed do it because they can squeeze out a few more beats per minute. Maybe they know they can't, nor do they have to maintain it for very long, so they use it kind of the way race car driver's use a shot of nitrous oxide.

    Check out this video particularly at around 2:12 and 2:30.

    hey AlsoRan - yeah he changes his "motion mechanic" when he's going for essentially 'tremolo' picking, just going as fast as possible on a single string. The mechanics of tremolo picking are more flexible as you don't have to change strings with much precision, so you take out a big chunk of the equation (string-changing.) Instead it's just about going back and forth on a single string as quick as possible.

  25. #124

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    I see prodigious chops as a potential advantage. But, I am convinced that some people will be able to do things that others can't. Nervous systems vary. It's the middle ground that's desirable. Don't give up too soon, but be realistic about what you can accomplish - because practice time isn't infinite. If that point had already been made ad nauseum, my apologies.

  26. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I see prodigious chops as a potential advantage. But, I am convinced that some people will be able to do things that others can't. Nervous systems vary. It's the middle ground that's desirable. Don't give up too soon, but be realistic about what you can accomplish - because practice time isn't infinite. If that point had already been made ad nauseum, my apologies.



    I agree with all of that, for sure, just a matter of degrees and quantities: where the point of diminishing returns is, how much time is being spent and how much is available, but most importantly: what are the individual’s goals? When we talk about what’s “good” or “bad” it depends a lot on what a particular player is trying to achieve.


    Thanks for being patient with my outburst.