The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK, I gave this a try today. I can play it at tempo, albeit not very well, but I have trouble with the top note being heavily accented. Not sure if this is the same issue Reg was having.


    Now, an observation - to do this with DWPS means that the top note is heavily accented to the point of the lower note being a bit of a ghost.


    If I straighten my pick up a bit I get more of an even sound.


    In either case I am getting a lot of string noise which suggest I am in fact swiping without the muting bit.

    Cool Christian, thanks.


    Tomorrow is my day off, sort of. Maybe I’ll record a video of me trying this and talk through some of my picking issues


    at great length


    in great detail.


    what’s the maximum file size for a youtube video again?

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  3. #52

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    If you're new @YT, I think it's 10 minutes, or 15 minutes, file size does not matter. If you are there for a while and become partner, I think there's no explicitly set limit .

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  4. #53
    thanks vladan, it was just a joke mocking my own long-windedness and obsession with detail.

  5. #54

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    I understood general humorous tone, but thought you were serious in detail, about max. allowed size.

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  6. #55

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    It made me laugh!

    BTW I thought of you today when I was on my gig playing Seven Come Eleven. The way I finger it, there's a little bit of a string cross like yours repeated a few times. Without putting the tab up, hard to describe it exactly, but the melody goes

    B C Eb C Eb C Eb F a few times

    I put that C Eb on the 3rd and 2nd string respectively. This tune is pretty fast (around 260 bpm) and the line is quavers. So not quite as fast as your example, but fast enough to be challenging.

    I have to say, I find it much easier to play in a musical context.

    No idea how Charlie fingered it. I suspect not the way I do.

  7. #56

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    What made me laugh, Christian, was your previus post in this thread. What was it ... You can play two notes line in tempo, it's just that you play only one of those two, but to compensate you accidentaly hit adjacent strings a lot ... Not to mention poor Steve Vai and his inability to play rhythm guitar, from another thread. LOL.

    Btw, nobody answered my question, since when playing line of two, or even 3 notes, placed on 2 adjacent strings is considered cross picking?


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  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    What made me laugh, Christian, was your previus post in this thread. What was it ... You can play two notes line in tempo, it's just that you play only one of those two, but to compensate you accidentaly hit adjacent strings a lot ... Not to mention poor Steve Vai and his inability to play rhythm guitar, from another thread. LOL.

    Btw, nobody answered my question, since when playing line of two, or even 3 notes, placed on 2 adjacent strings is considered cross picking?


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    Haha you are a dreadful wind up merchant Vladan and I love you very much.

    Vai might be able to play decent rhythm guitar, he can certainly play rock rhythm as we all know. But he doesn't play funk guitar for example - that's not his thing, whether or not he can do it is not relevant. I doubt he'd be a great bossa nova rhythm guitarist, or brilliant at afro-beat, but hey who knows.

    The point is he does the Vai thing. His playing has identity, so what may have actually come across as carping is actually acknowledging the intelligence of his approach. He doesn't try to be everything, all things to all men.

    Anyway, I'm not a good cross-picker. TBH, my style and repertoire doesn't require it too much - 7 come 11 is an example that does.

    But my point was more that isolating a technical exercise and concentrating on something without context can actually make it harder to play.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-02-2016 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    What made me laugh, Christian, was your previus post in this thread. What was it ... You can play two notes line in tempo, it's just that you play only one of those two, but to compensate you accidentaly hit adjacent strings a lot ... Not to mention poor Steve Vai and his inability to play rhythm guitar, from another thread. LOL.

    Btw, nobody answered my question, since when playing line of two, or even 3 notes, placed on 2 adjacent strings is considered cross picking?


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    Vladan, my man, go to 7:00 in this video and you will get some good slow motion photos of cross picking. Maybe this will answer your question. Basically, you swoop in on each string in a bit of a "U" angle, where the tip of the pick dives into the string to play it and then comes out the other side in an arc. Your pick never gets caught in the string this way.


  10. #59

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    I mean thank uou, this clip clarified what is meant by cross picking in this thread, but ...

    My question is not "what is meant by cross picking, in this thread?", it is not "what is cross picking?", either. Some posts earlier I quoted from Wiki the deffinition of cross picking, as I know it.

    My question is, when this manner of avoiding strings started to present it self by the name of something completely different?




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    Last edited by Vladan; 11-02-2016 at 10:49 PM.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarzen
    Play the D and the F both on the 3rd string and this becomes easy. Use legato playing and it becomes even easier again. I don't think one should waste time with something purely because it is difficult, when there is an easier way to do it. Why bang your head against the wall when there was an easier solution staring you in the face? I understand the idea of practicing every possible combination so that you can be prepared for anything. But I also understand it's not worth spending a 1000 hours of practice just to gain .001 % more efficiency for one very specific picking situation. The time is better spent on other things...
    Yep, or on the 2nd string. Then this lick would make a musical sense at that tempo. Or hybrid picking as is... But since the OP is being rigid on the rules...

    ...I agree 100% it's a foolish thing to practice things that don't make musical sense.

    Btw I can play it, no problem at 155bpm, it just sound like inarticulate mess at that tempo, and it's not because of my or anyone else technique problem. What's the catch here, anyway, or is it some kind of a joke?

  12. #61

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    A violin teacher said to me- I have two kinds of students, those that have trouble playing fast and those that have trouble playing slow.
    I think the world is full of guitar players now that have trouble playing slow.

  13. #62

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    I don't butt it very often with this but people are wired a certain way. Slow or fast. Focus on tonality. Make a nice sound. Are you playing for you or for other people?
    Speed will come with time. Slow down and enjoy the ride.

  14. #63

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    Actually, I found a fun solution (still only talking about the 1st lick)- left hand fingers move along with the picking hand.
    What I mean is you do the tapping/dancing on those notes as you pick them, not holding them down, which was my initial instinctive way of playing it. Now it's way more fun and I can use it.

    And yes Seven Comes Eleven repetitive riff is exactly where you apply this, if even a bit slower.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I mean thank uou, this clip clarified what is meant by cross picking in this thread, but ...

    My question is not "what is meant by cross picking, in this thread?", it is not "what is cross picking?", either. Some posts earlier I quoted from Wiki the deffinition of cross picking, as I know it.

    My question is, when this manner of avoiding strings started to present it self by the name of something completely different?




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    Troy specifically mentions in one of his videos (I don't know which one, sorry) that what he refers to as crosspicking is what he considers the motion used to achieve the actual definition of crosspicked patterns on guitar.

    It causes a lot of ambiguity, but it's the best we can do. Simply put: what bluegrass players and flatpickers call crosspicking is achieved by using the motion Troy has dubbed "crosspicking", in that the pick follows a curved path of motion to allow those licks to be played.

  16. #65

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    1. @ Hep To Thee Jive;
    @ Stevebol

    There's no point in bitching about musicality, the pourpose of playing fast, ...
    This is technical exercise to devellop picking abillity. weather this particular line is musically useful is not a matter to discuss.
    BTW, I know at least one common place sound, different from Christian's, where it would be the core technique of execution. You could play it fast, or slow as per the tempo of the song.

    2. @ Hep ...
    Saying for a technical exercise "I can do it, but souunds like inarticulate mess..." is an oxymoron. It actually means you can not do it.
    For that matter, in a real musical situation iit''s different. Real musical situation allowes you to articulate the mess into something musical and use it to own advantage.

    I can play the exercise clean and articulate @ about 130, after dealing with it for a while sometimes, accidentally @ 155, couple of articulate and clean bars happen out of them selves.
    However, from the get go, @ 155 I can always articulate what I play into something musical, though a bit different from what's requested in technical exercise..
    Finally, Hep, your solution with moving fingers is something I do, too and with variations.

    3. @ Shadoww Of The Sun

    LOL! LOL!!!! LOL!!!!
    So, Troy almighty self coined another buzz word term for desperate guitar players would have something to talk about and relocate their money to his poockets. Thanks, I should have guessed ...

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    Last edited by Vladan; 11-03-2016 at 04:28 AM.

  17. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    3. @ Shadoww Of The Sun

    LOL! LOL!!!! LOL!!!!
    So, Troy almighty self coined another buzz word term for desperate guitar players would have something to talk about and relocate their money to his poockets. Thanks, I should have guessed ...

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    When there isn't an already established name for what's being discussed (specifically, a curved pick stroke that escapes the plane of the strings both before and after the actual sounding of the string), why not come up with a new word to denote it? Or repurpose an already existing one that fits quite well already?

    While you think his work is nonsense, I and a fair few other guitarists have found that his explanations and terminology make it a lot easier to discuss things about plectrum technique that prior to Troy's videos and his use of those terms we wouldn't have been able to explain.

    Also, I find it ironic that you're snide about him "trying to relocate [their] money to his pockets" and his attempts at self promotion when every single goddamn post you include a link to your blog and the views and ad revenue that comes from that. Pot, meet kettle.

  18. #67

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    Shadow, nothing personal, sorry if I offended you.
    Links to my blog and YT channel are free, even if I earn something, which I rarely do, it's not from the pockets of those who were unfortunate enough to visit my pages. The only money I get is from the evil advertisers.
    I could agree TGs teachings were useful for the discussion about use of plectrum, once we all learn his self coined terms, sometimes conflicting with existing and accepted stabdard, if only it did not evolve into discussion of "His solution". There's no solution in what he says, IMO. It's swapping cause and consequence, treating (that ugly ...) S (... word ) as one.
    For one, it is impossible to pluck the string and keep the pick straight. It will always move one way, or another ... and so on ...

    He could have named it U ... Boat ... Turn ... but no, he chose the term name already being used in the simillar niche market for the reason of ...

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    Last edited by Vladan; 11-03-2016 at 04:56 AM.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    A violin teacher said to me- I have two kinds of students, those that have trouble playing fast and those that have trouble playing slow.
    I think the world is full of guitar players now that have trouble playing slow.
    Ha I agree.

    What if you can't do either? ;-)

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Shadow, nothing personal, sorry if I offended you.
    Links to my blog and YT channel are free, even if I earn something, which I rarely do, it's not from the pockets of those who were unfortunate enough to visit my pages. The only money I get is from the evil advertisers.
    I could agree TGs teachings were useful for the discussion about use of plectrum, once we all learn his self coined terms, sometimes conflicting with existing and accepted stabdard, if only it did not evolve into discussion of "His solution". There's no solution in what he says, IMO. It's swapping cause and consequence, treating (that ugly ...) S (... word ) as one.
    For one, it is impossible to pluck the string and keep the pick straight. It will always move one way, or another ... and so on ...

    He could have named it U ... Boat ... Turn ... but no, he chose the term name already being used in the simillar niche market for the reason of ...

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    I kind of feel your pain, Vladan.

    In this world, you have people are always coming up with their own terminology even when there is already a term out there. I work with a lot of technical folks and someone is always coming up with a new way of doing things and creating their own terms. Mostly, its the young guys who have never really experienced our industry. They create these new terms and then the old guys like me have to relearn and reorder my thinking to be able to communicate with them and everyone else in the company (the call it a "system" and not a company). They become the experts, and we have to adapt or retire because they also rewrite our guidance and come up with computer programs created from their point of view. It is the way of the world.

    (We also have this in Jazz).

    But, I would not necessarily put Troy in this category. He seems to be pretty sincere and I feel a kinship with him as being a seeker of knowledge who gets down into the details.

    This "crosspicking" (as he calls it) is so cool in that in can help you keep the tone consistent, and allows for some great string-skipping ability. I tried practicing with it and will probably go back to it thanks to Troy's research. I like it as being the best approach for me and I already do a lesser version of it naturally.

  21. #70
    I'm not a mod so I don't actually have any power for what people post or don't post, but, in the interest of having good, productive threads, just a couple of requests:

    1. If you'd like to discuss Troy Grady and whether he is good/bad for the community, can you start another thread for that? I'd contribute, and it may be an interesting discussion, (and one that gets into the cost/value of entrepreneurship in the music instruction industry) but it's not what this thread was intended for.

    2. If any individuals think it's foolish to analyze/study/practice technique, then maybe it's better for the forum if those folks avoided the 'guitar technique' subforum, or started a separate thread about whether pick technique is worth talking about. Again, I'd be happy to contribute to that conversation.

    I'm not a mod but I think these are reasonable suggestions that would make for cleaner, more productive threads.

  22. #71

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    @ AlsoRan,

    the "cross picking" as per standard of TG is pretty much my default, althiugh I kind of spontaneously mix it with other ways, with a result that is sort of random "hit and miss" especially in regard to strings that should be muted.
    What's even more peculliar for this technique, some will say it involves "string skipping" because on the way to the adjacent string you are passing over one you've just finished playing, or you're passing over the wanted one to pick it from the oposite side.
    When I learned this little terminology I know, "string skipping" was moving to non-adjacent string. So with my default I gained (fake) mastery of two techniques I never really practiced, "cross picking" and "string skipping", not to mention "pick slanting", which is natural ingredient of each and every string pick and string change. Becoming an multidisciplinary expert seem not as hard task as it used to be. Maybe I should go for PhD on "String plucking (on guitar)"?

    @ JakeAcci, I'm for discussion of technique, but if it takes a lateral turn here and there ..., I mean let's not be that strict.

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    Last edited by Vladan; 11-03-2016 at 09:29 AM.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I never really practiced, "cross picking" and "string skipping", not to mention "pick slanting", which is natural ingredient of each and every string pick and string change. Becoming an multidisciplinary expert seem not as hard task as it used to be.
    Ok ... I'll bite.

    What do you suggest the two seperate techniches of "cross picking" and two way pick slanting should be called?
    Cross picking means in the TG universe alternate picking across two stings that relies on an up down movement of the wrist and two way pick slanting which relies on a side to side movement of the wrist?

    As I understand you, then you think both should be called cross picking but doing that loses information.

    There has already been posted some cross picking vids in this thread, so here is one on two way pickslanting.



    Also to me TG has not redefined cross picking but introduced two way pick slanting into the world of common knowledge. So that is the new term. He then has kept the term cross picking as the default term the technique used by those that are commonly seen as cross pickers (the blue grass crowd and such)
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-03-2016 at 09:58 AM.

  24. #73

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    I would suggest you to re-read my previous posts, seems you've greatly missunderstood them. I'd respect JakeAcci's wishes and continue as strictly on topic as possible. Core of the issue is, I happen to live in "this" universe, not TG's one, but for the sake of discussion I'll accept his existence. So let's move further. To clarify ...
    None of the two I would call cross picking, because the term is already used for something different, but simillar enough to produce confusion.

    Working on "slanting" won't get you far. If you are improving while doing it, it's because you are unconsciously improving something else. You should find that "else" and work on it. When you improve "else", "slanting" will come out naturally set to work.

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    Last edited by Vladan; 11-03-2016 at 10:39 AM.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Working on "slanting" won't get you far. If you are improving while doing it, it's because you are unconsciously improving something else. You should find that "else" and work on it.
    Sorry if I missunderstood your posts, but still the above sentence is very vague

    Can you give any examples of what this 'Else' that will improve my picking could be by examples?

  26. #75

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    I'm not a teacher and I don't give lessons. Even if I was a teacher, giving lessons, even if pro bono, unlike almost all other teachers, including . , I've never heard/ saw you play so I can not know if there are any problems with your technique. You might be perfect?

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