The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    The more I work on pick technique the more I figure out ways to make certain passages ‘happen’ at faster tempos. While for years I used to just alternate pick everything and try to move things up a few bpm at a time (VERY limited results that way!) recently I’ve been finding ways to utilize strengths that make certain passages and movements a lot faster. All of Troy Grady’s stuff has really helped in making a lot of what used to be impossible possible.


    THIS passage, below, still stumps me though. Can anybody do this at this tempo? Without re-fingering it or hybrid picking or slurring, etc. Even do it half as long?









    For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’). I know Troy Grady has done stuff on cross picking, the Steve Morse segment, the bluegrass stuff...not sure I ‘get’ how that technique varies from my basic approach to alternate picking.


    I can ‘swipe’ (Grady’s term for essentially playing adjacent strings, muted) to get a really sloppy version of it, maybe over time that will get cleaner.


    It seems like...if you have ‘one note per string’ but it’s all in one direction then it is easy to ‘sweep’. If you have more notes on each string it’s easier to do economy/alternate and ‘pick slanting’ switches (or not.) But this figure...any insights? For those of you that are at a high level with benson picking, is this passage doable?


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  3. #2

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    Afaik that is "inside picking" which is by definition the most inefficient kind of passage.


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  4. #3
    Thanks blille. For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’).

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Thanks blille. For me, it’s the same problem if you flip the pick strokes to up-down (so whether it’s ‘inside’ or ‘outside’).
    I hear you. I've learned sweep picking and the example you put is literally the only kind of pattern that you can't optimize so "sweeping down" two notes and going back up is not really a saving. I would still do inside picking.

    It's a great exercise but in real life I would avoid playing that by transposing or adding notes

  6. #5

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    I got up to 138 bpm after a short warm-up.

    I set the metronome on 138 and played quarter notes in sync with the metronome using upstrokes on the third string. Then I quickly used inside picking for that one measure. Outside picking was a failure, and either way it was not clean but some amplification could hide me.

    As for 155bpm, you could offer me a billion dollars and there is no way I could do it right now - maybe ever.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 10-29-2016 at 10:31 PM.

  7. #6
    hah, thanks guys. also ran, if you can get 138 I can't imagine the 12% increase is really that impossible, no?

  8. #7

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    Play the D and the F both on the 3rd string and this becomes easy. Use legato playing and it becomes even easier again. I don't think one should waste time with something purely because it is difficult, when there is an easier way to do it. Why bang your head against the wall when there was an easier solution staring you in the face? I understand the idea of practicing every possible combination so that you can be prepared for anything. But I also understand it's not worth spending a 1000 hours of practice just to gain .001 % more efficiency for one very specific picking situation. The time is better spent on other things...

  9. #8
    thanks guitarzen - I'm interested in the passage as is.

  10. #9

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    How about experimenting with pick position? It's key for me to develop speed.

    Experiment with it pointing slightly forward towards the neck and slanted like this:

  11. #10

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    Key should be getting the pick clear of the stings, so a change in pickslant after each note? (I tried, but am no way near speeed on this one)

    Whether you go inside or outside picking should make no difference.


  12. #11

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    Ditch Troy Grady, it's worthless piece of nonsense, IMO.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Ditch Troy Grady, it's worthless piece of nonsense, IMO.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    I've found his material to make objective improvements in my pick technique.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Key should be getting the pick clear of the stings, so a change in pickslant after each note? (I tried, but am no way near speeed on this one)

    Whether you go inside or outside picking should make no difference.

    I think that for these passages TG would advocate 'cross picking' but I don't really get how to do it!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I've found his material to make objective improvements in my pick technique.
    I wonder, what exactly have you learned from him, what you do now that you were not diung before and was not already explained elewhere?

    VladanMovies BlogSpot

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I think that for these passages TG would advocate 'cross picking' but I don't really get how to do it!
    If you think cross picking is ok for the exercise, why slurring and hybrid are not? Maybe I've missinterpreted OP?




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  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I wonder, what exactly have you learned from him, what you do now that you were not diung before and was not already explained elewhere?

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    There are many, many, many passages that I am now able to play much faster. Essentially, when I run into a sequence that is difficult for me to pick, I now have a lot of tools to 'solve' the problem of getting it at the tempo that I want.

    The way I think of it now is to isolate to find the one note that is giving me trouble. Because the odds are usually that there is one specific note in the passage where I either can't get it or I tense up. It might be the second note of the passage or it might be something in the middle, or end, but it's there.

    So when trying to problem-solve that note, I may do one or more of the following:

    -change the string the note is on
    -change which pick stroke I am using to play either the 'problem' note, or the note that precedes it
    -change the pick 'slant' for either the problem note or the preceding note
    -utilize 'swiping'

    seems simple but the slanting stuff has been huge for me, especially because my 'downward pick slanting' is very strong, so I have figured out ways to utilize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    If you think cross picking is ok for the exercise, why slurring and hybrid are not? Maybe I've missinterpreted OP?
    because I am curious about ways to still hit each note with the pick, and cross picking is still attacking each note with the pick. Hybrid and slurring mean some notes are not attacked with the pick.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    There are many, many, many passages that I am now able to play much faster. Essentially, when I run into a sequence that is difficult for me to pick, I now have a lot of tools to 'solve' the problem of getting it at the tempo that I want.

    The way I think of it now is to isolate to find the one note that is giving me trouble. Because the odds are usually that there is one specific note in the passage where I either can't get it or I tense up. It might be the second note of the passage or it might be something in the middle, or end, but it's there.

    So when trying to problem-solve that note, I may do one or more of the following:

    -change the string the note is on
    -change which pick stroke I am using to play either the 'problem' note, or the note that precedes it
    -change the pick 'slant' for either the problem note or the preceding note
    -utilize 'swiping'

    seems simple but the slanting stuff has been huge for me, especially because my 'downward pick slanting' is very strong, so I have figured out ways to utilize it.



    because I am curious about ways to still hit each note with the pick, and cross picking is still attacking each note with the pick. Hybrid and slurring mean some notes are not attacked with the pick.
    "Find the exact prroblem and deal with it, don't waste time on fixing what you do good", must be the most common place piece of advice in the history of the world, we hardly needed TG to learn that one.

    Refingering and adapting licks to fit your technique is another obvious one, nothing TG about it.

    Basicaly it leaves us with angling the pick, which we already were doing, because by the nature of the thing it can not be done differently, you for example already were "... very strong ..." in it, only now we have to reffer to it as to that uggly buzzword? You really needed TG to tell you that on up strokes the pick is moving from the strings if you hold it like that and on down strokes if yu hold it the other way?

    Anyway, I'm glad it worked for you, but then again, why do you ask here about picking, why don't you take a look into TG's teachings ?
    Of course, all above is rethorical for the sake of discussion, I'm not against you
    personally, or against such questions from people who bought into TG.

    It's only I think he's selling thin air that is surrounding snake oil.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    Last edited by Vladan; 10-30-2016 at 11:10 AM.

  19. #18

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    People do like to break things down the nth degree here don't they?

  20. #19

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    BTW, if refingering and moving position of notes played is THE way, then ...

    I think the point of that exercise is to practice strict inside alternate picking.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    People do like to break things down the nth degree here don't they?
    Christian, similar to my other post, I enjoy the process of analysis and am curious about the mechanics of various things relating to the guitar. I'm not claiming the answer to my curiosity will land me a gig with Mark Turner.

    Vladan, the post isn't about whether Troy Grady is great or not, rather about a particular picking motion/string orientation and if anybody has figured out a way to do it. It seems you have some objection to him that isn't really on topic here.

  22. #21

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    In my previous post I addressed the topic. There's nothing you can do with this pattern, unless you move the notes over different strings , in which case the whole point of exercisr is lost. IMO.

    If the only rule is to pick all the notes, then you could play it on one string with a stetch of either index, or pinky.

    Sort of half way cross picking without crossing would be to move
    the pattern into index on 11th position
    and stringset 4 and 5, for the reason of closer spaced frets, and play it as

    4/11, 5/12, 5/16, 5/12, 4/11 ...

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    Last edited by Vladan; 10-30-2016 at 02:07 PM.

  23. #22

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    About 120 going in cold before it fell apart.

    Then I remembered I'm a hybrid picker. Got my middle finger involved, was over 155 with no warm up.

    So my answer: I'd cheat.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    hah, thanks guys. also ran, if you can get 138 I can't imagine the 12% increase is really that impossible, no?
    You would think so, but after years of chasing speed with the limited time that I have, I seem to have plateaued out. Still, I like challenges that I can later use to play songs that were once beyond my technical ability.

    This might make for a nice exercise.

    That fastest that I can go up and down on a single string, while still accenting the first note, is around 190 bpm although I can go to 208 without accenting and playing all four sixteenth notes with even volume.

    I will get you know if I ever get there...

  25. #24

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    I can play it for a long time at about 150 as written, but I'd have to pick it up-down instead of down-up.
    I could keep it up for 20 measures or so, before starting to drop beats
    I've always found it important to be able to repeat exercises like that over and over, rather than just play it for one measure, because you can incorporate it easier into your technique, and be able to do it with little effort.

    But as far as playing it down-up, I can't come anywhere near that, although I have been working on that type of thing lately. I don't do any pick slanting that I'm aware of, but maybe I should start consciously working on it.

    Back when high school students were still interested in playing musical instruments, I used to get kids in my band class that could shred way faster than I could. One Guyanese kid used to sneak into the band room, and stay there the whole day, shedding Paul Gilbert exercises. Then he'd go home and practice another ten hours!
    He came back to visit me after he finished school, and he was already playing professional gigs after playing guitar for only three or four years.
    I xeroxed a bunch of Paul Gilbert things that he bought, and still practice them today. We used to sit there and watch Paul Gilbert and Steve Vai videos in my office every day.

    When he brought in an instructional video that had Vai playing while he had a fan trained on his hair, I almost puked.
    Another Sri Lankan kid could also play me under the table, but when he came back to visit me after he graduated and
    was going to college for engineering, he couldn't play as well, because he had to study now!

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    About 120 going in cold before it fell apart.

    Then I remembered I'm a hybrid picker. Got my middle finger involved, was over 155 with no warm up.

    So my answer: I'd cheat.
    Thanks Jeff.

    Question: if you were trying to play the passage below at a very fast tempo, without slurring the second note, would you intuitively pick the G string note with a right hand finger?




    Last edited by JakeAcci; 10-31-2016 at 09:19 AM.