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My treatise on bebop guitar right-hand articulation:
Alternate picking is the devil. If you ever want to truly lock in your time feel like a sax player can (for example), you should stop using it immediately.
Alternate picking strives to make the distance between played notes sound as even as possible. It fails at this for 90% of the players that focus on it because getting an outside-picked string cross to take up as much time as two notes on the same string is EXTREMELY difficult. However, as you practice it and get better and better, your time feel will only get worse - especially at up tempos.
FOR YOU SEE, swung 8th notes aren't supposed to be perfectly even. Duh. If you listen to a slowed down version of a burning solo by someone who has an incredible time feel (think Johnny Griffin or Sonny Stitt), while you may marvel at how "straight" it sounds fast, slowed down you'll notice that it actually swings really hard. The "doo-bah-doo-bah-doo-bah" is still there, but the fast tempo makes it feel more subtle. Put that aside for a second.
Now, the guitar has some nasty built-in limitations that make playing fast lines really hard. Because you have to change strings and change hand positions, it's guaranteed that SOME notes are just physically going to take longer to get to.
Some guitar players solve this by adding hammer-ons and pull-offs. The thing is, those are slurs. Slurring is a very particular way of treating notes, which has its own unique, musical purpose. If you start leaning on this articulation device as a means of solving technique problems, you muddle the listener's ability to appreciate it for its musicality. You can find yourself playing slurs in less than musical places just to get from point A to B. You also can also very easily end up over-using the crap out of them. Not every line needs a slur in it. In my opinion, this is what 98% of modern jazz guitar players do. It's not that it sounds "bad" per se, but it does sound uniquely guitar player-y. To my ears, that usually translates to a time feel is a little...weird.
Other guitarists - like myself - try to just get better at crossing strings and changing positions in the middle of lines, hoping to smooth out the "micro-stutters" via brute force practice. I can't speak for everyone, but I've been working on that for, like, 15 years with very limited success. The micro-stutters remain.
Here's what I realized tonight:
There are basically 3 ways to articulate a picked string change on guitar, each with their own pros/cons:
1) Outside Pick - This feels very natural, but the travel distance of the pick is physically longer. The note placement will always be a hair late.
2) Sweep - Extremely fast and fluid because you're basically getting 2 notes for a single right-hand motion. This 2-for-one motion means it's completely uncontrollable. Sweeps are essentially one speed, and that speed is "fast." Don't BS me about practice, either. Sweep a Bbmaj7 arpeggio. Now do it again but try to swing it this time. Yeah, sucks. Sweeps are one speed, QED.
3) Inside Pick - This tends to be okay on ascending lines, but for descending lines it is the spawn of Satan himself. It's the father of lies, the root of all evil. It's fast in theory, but the fact that you have to cross the string you just played once more just to get to the next note you're trying to play makes it extremely inconsistent. You're going to hit that bitch sometimes. You just are. And when you do, your line will be late. This will create tension in your hands as you try to force yourself back into the pocket and you get stressed out over the fact that your time feel just fell apart. You're going to have to do some weird, extra pivot motion with the pick to avoid it, which means it's really not as fast as you intuitively felt it would be. Tension, tension, tension. Stress, stress, stress.
So, let's take stock. On the one hand, you need to swing, which requires you treat your 8th note lines in "long-short" paired groups (to vastly over-simplify a complex concept). On the other hand, unless you hate yourself, you have two viable right-hand string-crossing articulation options; one that feels natural but physically takes a bit longer to execute, and one that feels natural but is only good for short-duration, fast notes...
...OH MAN!!!
To state the obvious, use outside picking to get from "doo" to "bah," and use a sweep to get from "bah" back to "doo."
Yes, this is economy-of-motion picking, but I think there is a slight twist that is very important. With econ picking, your focus is on constructing a right-hand articulation pattern that emphasizes efficiency and ease-of-play. What I'm suggesting is, sure, do that, but skew it in service of constructing a line that is not only easy to play but also physically can't help but swing its nuts off. You're basically using the limitations of the instrument make you swing harder.
Yeah, it'll take forever to build an intuition for this. But, hey, talk about finding something WORTH investing a lot of time into!Last edited by JazzMac251; 10-10-2016 at 04:46 PM.
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10-10-2016 04:31 PM
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Nah, it's much easier than that.
Originally Posted by JazzMac251
You just play seperately articulated downstrokes at all times ;-)
TBH I'm not sure if I can process your argument here. I think a video demonstration would be much clearer and easier to understand, although I think I get some of your drift.
Also do you not think that any historical guitarist addressed this problem to your satisfaction?
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Yeah, and what's wrong with slur lines again? I find none if it is true what you were saying about it. When it comes to bebop and beyond, I go to slur mode automatically. If a tune is too hard I might use too many slurs, so keep your kids out...
But seriously, Sco is one guitarist I can listen to and never get tired of the lines he play. And most of it are slurring. I go with that. Maybe not so much in rock, or funk, or early types of jazz, but definitely in modern forms.
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Well it's an interesting post and yes, a video would make it clearer ...
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The basic cocnept is this:
-- Swing 8ths go "doo-bah-doo-bah-doo" or in terms of duration "long-short-long-short-long."
-- Some string crossing strokes physically take more time than others. Outside picking takes more time than a two-string mini-sweep, for example.
-- Use the slow strokes for the long duration portion of swing 8thes - "doo-bah" - and use the fast strokes for the short duration portion of swing 8ths - "bah-doo." My hypothesis is that your feel will be a LOT better this way.
Benson and Pat Martino solve the issue really well. IMO, most guitarists slur too much and it feels weird (rock influence), they try to pick everything and it sounds too shreddy (John Mclaughlin) or they just fail and end up with all these weird micro-stutters in lines, or the natural accents within their lines fall in non-swingin' locations. I think this concept may go a long to to alleviating those issues and smoothing out your 8th note feel.Last edited by JazzMac251; 10-10-2016 at 06:22 PM.
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Well it's nice of you to say so! ;-) I would say that there are other players, both past and present who have achieved some excellent solutions to the problems you describe. The interesting thing is that there doesn't appear to be a homogenous solution. Even GB and PM use radically different right hand techniques. Originally Posted by JazzMac251
Also, what do you think of Jimmy Rainey's approach? I'm really into his playing ATM, particularly on live at Stroyville with Stan Getz.
Swing 8ths can go doo-bah-doo-bah, but they can also be quite straight and behind. It really depends on the player. But most players have an inequality in their 8ths to one extent or another. The most important thing is to place the upbeat in the right place. Apparently that's one thing that remains consistent when they measure these things, so there you go.
I've actually come around to slurring more in my playing.
Under the influence of Mike Moreno I'm moving towards adding small amounts of slurring - upbeat into downbeat - on faster lines. This seems to be quite popular among players on the forum - some arrange their fingerings to consistently achieve this upbeat accentuation, but Moreno (and me as a result) is a bit a looser about it. Moreno also employs economy picking, which I don't personally use.
Now I bring this up because Moreno expressly points out that he wants the legato hornlike sound of hammer ons and pull offs, but wants to avoid the 'rock thing' where the accents are on the beat.
Moreno uses all downstrokes where possible on slower lines.
The downstroke thing was advocated by the Tristano school, after Charlie Christian's influence. As Tristano regarded Charlie Christian as the jazz musician with the best time/feel it might be worth noting this. Old school jazz guitarists tend to be downstroke heavy. Obviously Wes Montgomery also played this way, at least mostly.
Not trying to pull down your ideas which are interesting, just getting a debate going.Last edited by christianm77; 10-10-2016 at 06:49 PM.
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BTW - could you post up some tab, that might be an easier way to see what you mean. Originally Posted by JazzMac251
I'm also recalling that if you really dig into Charlie Christian's lines, his string crossing on arpeggios (down-sweeping on the whole) is much straighter than his playing on single strings. Charlie Christian of course is still super swinging by anyone's standards, but it's obviously a very guitaristic phenomenon.
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Martino uses mainly alt. picking, with a small amount of economy picking. Originally Posted by JazzMac251
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10-11-2016, 04:51 AM #9dortmundjazzguitar Guestthis. Originally Posted by JazzMac251
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Tell me more! I went in a total Raney craze yesterday evening. First Doug, then Jimmy. I realised that Jimmy is extremely underrated. To me right next to Wes in class. Very different styles though. Originally Posted by christianm77
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10-11-2016, 05:55 AM #11dortmundjazzguitar Guest
here's a lesson in bebop articulation with heavy slurring. it's the most important part of bop phrasing imo. but it has got to be done right, imitating the hornplayers approach. players coming from rock often get this wrong and place the attack on the beat. anyway here it is. start at 10:00 and lsiten to anthopology at 50%.doing this with other masters of bebop phrasing is most educational. for guitar i'd suggest wes, rene thomas, doug, martino with patterson, grant. those guys represent the gold standard regarding bop phrasing imo.
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10-11-2016, 05:56 AM #12dortmundjazzguitar Guest
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10-11-2016, 06:03 AM #13dortmundjazzguitar Guest
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I disagree completely with the idea that sweeps are one speed. Of course, you need control over the technique. Once you have that, it's no problem to mix 8th's, triplets, etc.
Last edited by vintagelove; 10-11-2016 at 09:36 AM.
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Jimmy Raney is another one who is completely opposite to the OP's 'breakthrough'. Originally Posted by yaclaus
His ideal of how 'modern jazz' should be played was Charlie Parker. In that green Aebersald book of his solos, he said in the preface that the eighths and sixteenths that Bird played were even, not the boo-dah rhythms of the Swing Period and a certain movement of jazz in the 1960s.
The thing that is changed is not the actual rhythms of the 8ths and 16ths, but the accents, which should be placed on the upbeat, rather than the downbeat.
In DJ's example, Raney uses slurs and accents to get this effect, not boo-dah, boo dah.
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While some of your arguments sound reasonable, I think there are many things you are not considering that are also very important. For one, most if not all of us have already refined our picking system over many years. We've already learned to deal with the physical limitations of the strings and the pick in relation to those strings. We've trained our brains to make many complex micro-adjustments to perfect our picking without thinking about it consciously. And in that case, we'd be stupid to try to retrain ourselves to try and pick a completely different way --- even if that other way could possibly be more efficient. It would be counter productive. It would be like trying to relearn how to walk in a new theoretically more efficient way. We'd likely end up tripping over our own two feet for a long time. We'd screw up all the years invested in perfecting our current method of picking for no good reason. Just on a chance (not a guarantee) that our picking motion might become 1% ??? or x % more efficient. A total waste for someone who has already trained their picking to a high level. So if my premise is somewhat accurate, your system would only be useful to someone who was just learning to pick, maybe. And who starts out learning jazz? Like nobody. So why would they want to start with a system optimized for swing rhythms? They wouldn't. I honestly think you'll be doing yourself more harm than good trying to re-train your picking and micro-manage every stroke. It would be the perfect example of over thinking. And all on just a hypothesis. The human brain is a very complex thing and can do amazing things with regards to learning highly precise movements. I think it's quite possible that there is no significant and measurable or noticeable advantage to your system. The brain is probably advanced enough to learn to play proper swing notes with either picking method, just as easily. And if that is true, you would in fact be doing yourself harm by trying to relearn a new system. One of the problems with human thinking is we tend to think just because something sounds logical, it must be true. Well that is not always the case because it's also true there are far more details to consider that you haven't or maybe are not even capable simply because you don't really grasp the full ability of your own brain. Well if it works for Pat Martino, it works for me. I didn't even get into some other really important points like the fact that swinging every single f#$#$ note is not desirable for many of us. I like to be able to fluidly move between different rhythms.
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Raney sounds relatively straight and relaxed. This is a feel I have grown to like a lot. Originally Posted by sgcim
The upbeat should always (apparently due to SCIENCE ;-)) be on the third triplet of the beat - but the downbeat is more flexible. The more you straighten, the more behind you go. See Dexter Gordon...
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10-11-2016, 03:46 PM #18dortmundjazzguitar Guestyes, raney wrote that. but checking the actual recordngs at half speed reveals that the triplet feel is still there at up-tempos. Originally Posted by sgcim
check for yourself with the youtube half-speed option. these eight notes are far from being even.
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Paragraphs aid readability... I had trouble parsing your comment... Originally Posted by Guitarzen
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I think he might have been referring to the dotted 8th, 16th note rhythmic feel of the Swing Era rather than the triplet Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
feel of the bop period.
Early bop still has some of that Swing Era rhythmic feel, because those guys were literally creating the new music at the time.
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'One of these days you're gonna realise there's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path.' Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
There I did it. Feel free to chuck things at me.
I must confess I haven't slowed down Raney's lines and put them under the microscope in this way, I'm sure you are right. But I still hear his lines as quite straight in a cool way, same with many players. Herb is another one. Bear in mind different people hear things in different ways. The upbeat accent on the third triplet is terribly important for example, and gives you the swing...
EDIT: sorry, you are talking about Bird. I am more familiar with his music slowed down as I practice with it often. I agree there is a pronounced inequality in his playing, fair dos. But his playing also rather more than just 8ths. As an aside - ever noticed how in time Lester Young's vibrato is? Slowed down it's incredible.
But I think we are overplaying the importance of objective reality here. We are musicians. We inhabit the subjective world. We can't micromanage microseconds with the conscious mind.
And it is interesting that so much advice is geared towards smoothing out and evening out playing to avoid overswinging and gearing the sense of swing more towards accents in the line. I have heard this advice many many times from the top players. Peter Bernstein advises this, for example.
When I give this advice to my own students they invariably swing more. Never try to swing. Ever. Stop it. Now.
Last edited by christianm77; 10-11-2016 at 04:18 PM.
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I find these questions very interesting. I just slowed down some Jimmy Raney and it sounded more 'straight' than that Parker track did. Which ties in with how I have always heard Raney's approach.
I also tried a little experiment playing a fast line and trying to imagine it in a fast 'samba' type context, then I played the same line imagining it in a fast bebop/swing context and tried to make it swing a bit. At the tempo I chose, I found it virtually impossible to make the notes unequal. But what I found was that for swing, I automatically put a lot more accents into the line. Whereas for the 'latin' feel, I played it more evenly, with few accents.
I am a massive fan of Jimmy Raney and Dexter Gordon by the way, so hopefully I have learned some of this stuff subconsciously from years of listening to them!
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on the picking thing specifically
enjoyed the post - thanks
i suspect that a good way to cope is to develop a picking 'grip' that is loose enough to allow the pick to move around pretty freely
this is the gist of philco's first post in the long gb picking thread - and of a good deal of discussion in that thread
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the thing about this method is that you do not have to try to generate a systematic approach with the left hand (3 notes per string...etc. etc.) or with the right (alternate, economy etc.)
you just have to have a genuinely flexible picking technique
but it won't be a perfect solution to the physical issues with picking you rightly emphasize
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