Economy Picking

[Johnptk]

Hey guys, I'm new here.

I've watched tonnes of videos, Frank G's Monster licks and speed picking, Maximum Speed Picking with Ney Mello, I've even had lessons with Ney Mello many years back but there are still some things I can't figure out.

I mainly use economy picking or directional picking or whatever you'd like to call it! And after too many years I'd care to mention I'm trying to relearn my right hand technique.

Here are my main issues, when you use economy picking ascending a scale 3 notes per string, do you angle the pick slightly towards the floor? And when you are descending, do you angle the pick the opposite way? If so, how much is too much? One of the problems I have found is that if I angle the pick when descending, I cannot palm mute notes... I don't mean mute unwanted string noise, I mean the actual notes. So does that mean that I shouldn't angle the pick at all when ascending or descending? And keep it pointing more or less straight out? On tonnes of videos on YouTube I have watched people angle the picks but I have yet to see someone do this while palm muting notes.

Also, I am relearning to play mainly with the wrist and just use the forearm, from the elbow joint to locate from string to string. When using the wrist and forearm, should I use the doorknob turning motion also? If that makes sense? Or just start practicing straight up and down with the wrist and use the forearm to help me reach the next string. Previously, I thought I was doing this but I think I was using a little too much forearm because things felt a little cumbersome... also, it meant that I had to start an ascending scale far away from the bridge if I wanted to play a 3 note per string scale as using the forearm seemed to move across the face of the guitar quite a bit (also not helping the palm muting issue)

So that's a lot of questions and now I will admit something, I'm more of a rock player (shock!), but I can't find the right info on any rock forums and you guys seem to be more clued in.

From the Dvd's I have studied, it seems that Frank G, does angle the pick a bit when ascending and descending scales, but to be honest it's a little hard to see and he doesn't mention it at all! With Ney Mello, he doesn't seem to angle the pick much when ascending or descending scales (he does a bit when sweep picking large movements though) again, he doesn't talk about it in his Dvd and it's kind of hard to see exactly what way he is doing it.

Can you guys help me please?
Thanks.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hey guys, I'm new here.

I've watched tonnes of videos, Frank G's Monster licks and speed picking, Maximum Speed Picking with Ney Mello, I've even had lessons with Ney Mello many years back but there are still some things I can't figure out.

I mainly use economy picking or directional picking or whatever you'd like to call it! And after too many years I'd care to mention I'm trying to relearn my right hand technique.

Here are my main issues, when you use economy picking ascending a scale 3 notes per string, do you angle the pick slightly towards the floor? And when you are descending, do you angle the pick the opposite way? If so, how much is too much?

I do angle it when economizing. It's about ten to fifteen degrees off the string axis, angled towards the floor when ascending, angled upwards when descending (that's when it gets to ten degrees, I get too much pushback with a steeper angle). Sometimes I don't care for the dropoff in attack on the second and third notes on a string in a run that comes with economy picking, and at that point I use circle-picking with the front (neck) side of the pick angled down about 15 degrees to hit each note. I very rarely sweep at all, only on rakes, really.

One of the problems I have found is that if I angle the pick when descending, I cannot palm mute notes... I don't mean mute unwanted string noise, I mean the actual notes. So does that mean that I shouldn't angle the pick at all when ascending or descending? And keep it pointing more or less straight out? On tonnes of videos on YouTube I have watched people angle the picks but I have yet to see someone do this while palm muting notes.

I anchor the karate-chop edge of my palm to the top of the bridge right behind the saddles, and roll the meat of my palm on and off the active portion of the string. This obviously won't work on a floating bridge, but on a ToM or blocked-trem bridge, it's fine. It also means I have to involve finger motion a little more (in order to adjust for the depth of picking).

Also, I am relearning to play mainly with the wrist and just use the forearm, from the elbow joint to locate from string to string. When using the wrist and forearm, should I use the doorknob turning motion also? If that makes sense? Or just start practicing straight up and down with the wrist and use the forearm to help me reach the next string.

I've always been a wrist player. I watch guys like Vernon Reid and wonder how the hell he can even get in the ballpark shaking his arm around like he does -- much as I love his playing, I couldn't do that without a couple of centuries of practice.

I base my palm on the bridge, use my wrist to both get to the string and if needed to supply the motion for circle-picking, and use my fingers to set the pick at the right depth for proper attack.

So that's a lot of questions and now I will admit something, I'm more of a rock player (shock!), but I can't find the right info on any rock forums and you guys seem to be more clued in.

Not sure I'm more clued in, but I am new here myself, and come from a rock/metal/shred background which has morphed over the last ten years into blues and now jazz. Still play me a hell of a lot of Rush.

[Johnptk]

Thanks for the reply,

I can't seem to get the Karate chop style to work with economy picking as I find that when I do the karate chop, the pick is tilted slightly towards the floor so if I have to descend a scale I can't angle the pick towards the ceiling... :/

[Johnptk]

I find the karate chop style stops me from being able to upsweep due to the angle of the pick being slanted a bit towards the floor....

After a bit of messing around today trying to figure things out I wonder is it a good idea to not purposely angle your pick when doing 3 note per string passages. For example, let the pick angle itself, if that makes sense. Naturally it seems to angle downwards when ascending and seems that it might be more helpful to hold it straight when descending instead of turning the wrist to angle it upwards.. therefore giving you the freedom to switch between economy picking, alternate picking (inside picking) and it's a little easier to palm mute... Any suggestions? Does this sound right or do I need to be consciously angling the pick?

[Runepune]

Don't focus too much on how to pick. Speaking for myself, I know that it can make you fight what your body wants to do It's hard to spot everything that goes on when watching others play at high speeds, and it probably wouldn't look the same when watching them practice the same at slower speeds. There's such a complex set of muscle movements involved. If you just practice relaxed, getting it to sound the way you want, your body will find the way.

That said. I don't angle my palm (at least not purposely) when sweeping in either direction, but I do angle the pick slightly when sweeping downwards. Else, my thumb would mute the previous string. I believe I angle the pick by adjusting the index/thumb, pulling them slightly towards the palm.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I find the karate chop style stops me from being able to upsweep due to the angle of the pick being slanted a bit towards the floor....

That's why I looked into and adopted, for some uses, circle-picking -- for me it eases the "grab" that the pick can have on the upstroke.

After a bit of messing around today trying to figure things out I wonder is it a good idea to not purposely angle your pick when doing 3 note per string passages. For example, let the pick angle itself, if that makes sense. Naturally it seems to angle downwards when ascending and seems that it might be more helpful to hold it straight when descending instead of turning the wrist to angle it upwards.. therefore giving you the freedom to switch between economy picking, alternate picking (inside picking) and it's a little easier to palm mute... Any suggestions? Does this sound right or do I need to be consciously angling the pick?

I'm not big on putting too much conscious thought into the process while playing. While practicing, I'd suggest trying it both ways and see which one feels most natural to you while at the same time permitting you sufficient speed to play the lines you're hearing in your head.

[Runepune]

That said. I don't angle my palm (at least not purposely) when sweeping in either direction, but I do angle the pick slightly when sweeping downwards. Else, my thumb would mute the previous string. I believe I angle the pick by adjusting the index/thumb, pulling them slightly towards the palm.

I just checked a Frank Gambale video, and it seems that he in fact angles the pick the very same way I tried to describe. Very obvious at 1:56:

[Johnptk]

I can definitely see him angle his pick when doing large sweeps but I'm more concerned about 3 note per string scale runs. I just changed my technique so that I'm not angling the pick much, although it naturally angles itself a bit when going either direction. So now I'm not sure what to practice.... It can take months of practice trying to build speed slowy before realising something isn't going to work and then having to find a solution and I feel I have done this so much over the years that I really need help with this. I've tried picking from the arm/wrist, wrist only, wrist/forearm rotation and tried them all angling the pick and then not angling it so much. It seems there is less resistance when angling the pick but I'm still unsure what way to practice.
It also seems like he is doing a bit of circle picking... or am I mistaken?

[Runepune]

If you don't need to angle the pick to get it to sound right, don't think about it. If it really is needed at some point along the line, your hand will adjust to what's needed. Just focus on avoiding any tension, use only the muscles needed... and keep on practicing. The problem with too much "intellectual" focus on that right hand is that it may prevent it from doing what it really needs to do. Kids usually acquire good technique much faster than adults. They don't think too much about it, they just do

[NSJ]

Strictly in terms of lines, I started practicing hybrid picking using Tim Miller's "creative arpeggio" course.

He has a very precise way of doing it ascending that involves picking, slurring and using the fingers . Hybrid picking doesn't work for him descending . So it's strictly an ascending exercise across the fingerboard .

I've been playing strictly finger style for a while now, so this isn't too bad .

I tried to do his course strictly finger style and it doesn't work. Especially in terms of developing speed. The hybrid picking used in conjunction with slurs is really fast .

[Johnptk]

Has anyone watched Jimmy Bruno's The Art of Picking Dvd?

[Johnptk]

Hey, me again, another thing that I'm a little unsure about is inside picking mixed with economy picking, it seems like the most proficient way to alternate pick with inside picking is to have the pick straight and not angled towards the ceiling or floor but then to angle the pick slightly if ascending or descending scales that would require mini sweeps.. I'm just a little unsure what I should practice to ensure that my hand or brain can find the right way properly when improvising..

[mikostep]

Just watch Troy Grady's YouTube videos about techniques used by Steve Morse, Yngwy Malmsteen, Albert Lee, Eric Johnson, Martin Miller, Doc Watson (not Doc actually, some other guy) and other guys. You will learn WHY the pick pointing down or up (pick slanting) is working and what part is missing. Also you'll see what is sweeping actually - it's pick slanting. Try to learn what means following terms: downward and upward pick slanting, leading and trailing edge playing, crosspicking, string hopping, 4 basic movements in guitar playing and who uses what combination.
I use trailing edge picking, crosspicking and Benson style of holding pick.
Also, don't get confused because these are metal and country players. Their technique is what we all use and after watching and understanding these videos I think it will help you a lot.

[Johnptk]

Hey thanks for the response. I will have a look at his videos, I've had a look at one of them before but I kind of just dismissed it, not sure why now. Before I have a look and try to figure out what is going on, the one thing I noticed from the video I seen before, is that when I am slanting the pick, the oscillation type movement doesn't kick in until I try and play at higher speeds, at slower speeds, I do more of a side to side wrist movement. I wonder, seen as the oscillation movement is so small is it something that naturally happens when the tempo goes up and the side to side wrist movement becomes smaller....

[mikostep]

I think your hand is not yet adjusted very well so that's why it's happening that speed helps. You will notice that most of them achived same goals with different techniques. Try to compare Steve Morse, Martin Miller and Albert Lee. They all use pick slanting plus crosspicking, but they achieve crosspicking differently. Once you realize and can replicate those moves you'll be free as bird 🐦.

[Johnptk]

Thanks, I'll check out some videos and hope for the best. I was just experimenting a bit and I find upward pick slanting a little awkward when descending a 3 note per string scale using economy picking but I guess that's just gonna take some practice to get used to.
I don't know if I will be able to describe this well, but let's say you are playing a 3 note per string scale sequence of 4 using economy picking. Due to the fact it's mostly alternate picked but has a couple of sweeps in the middle, would it be better to use a more straight pick angle until the sweeps so that the up and down sweep pick angles are equally as easy to perform? Or say simply descending a pentatonic scale 2 notes per string with inside picking, would down slanting cause issues with the up strokes?
At the moment I am practicing ridiculously slow, I don't even want to admit how slow! Just to try and get things right this time round. I've been playing too long and am too old to keep changing my technique!
I apologise for all these questions!

[Johnptk]

Ok so having checked out many of Troys videos I think I'm going to try stick to a straight angle when alternate picking (inside) and use the pick slanting when using economy picking. It seems like it would be very difficult to combine all of these different pick angles when using economy picking... or am I wrong? Is it a bad idea to try stick to a straight angle for alternate picking?

[christianm77]

Doesn't pick slanting happen naturally when sweeping anyway?

[Johnptk]

Doesn't pick slanting happen naturally when sweeping anyway?

Yes, but I'm more concerned with what happens when not sweeping every time you change string or simply going up and down a pentatonic scale. Say for example you have a run where you are using two note per string pentatonic style runs then have some mini sweeps thrown in the middle. I don't mean big 6 string arpeggios, just 2 notes on the d string and two notes on the g string repeated a few times which requires mini sweeps and pick angle changes. I'm not sure if that made sense... it's hard to describe what I mean

[christianm77]

Sure, well for 2 notes a string sweeping you would still use a consistent down slant going down and an up slant going up. There should be no reason to have to micromanage pick slant at all.

In general - start a new string with down strokes, use a down slant, start a new string with up stroke, use an up slant.

Therefore when you ascend any figure any number of notes per string using economy picking you always start each new string with a downstroke, regardless. Obv, for 2 nps that's going to be the same as alternate, but here's the thing - it doesn't matter, because you are starting each new string with a downstroke so you use a down ward pick slant to ensure the pick can escape from the plane of the strings on the upstroke. This eliminates any problems of outside picking (trust me.)

The opposite is true if you start each string with upstrokes - on a descending scale or arpeggio, say.

From my experience, this pick slanting happens naturally. FG talks about keeping his pick straight, but you don't need much of a pick slant to have the required effect, and the physics of letting the string rake across even two strings ought to encourage the angle. 'Pushing through.'

Video footage of FG's right hand clearly shows he is changing his pick stance depending on the overall direction of his picking.

Looking at it from another perspective - some players fix their pick slanting (Yngwie, Eric J, Tal Farlow, George Benson, Django etc) and change their picking patterns accordingly. This is, in fact, what I do.

This is AFAIK the new thing that Troy Grady has found. When I was growing up, magazines would always talk about economy picking and alternate picking, but they hadn't a clue about this stuff.

Imagine my surprise after 4 years of Gypsy picking when it turned out electric players were using a variant of it!

I'm a dwps player, so always use a downstroke on a new string. Therefore on 2 nps patterns I economy pick ascending, and alternate pick descending. If I was an uwps player I would do the opposite.

Hopefully from that explanation it should be become clear that it's pure alternate picking where two way pick slanting becomes required. Sweeping doesn't need it, except on direction changes.

TL;DR - don't overthink it. Two way pick slanting is for alternate guys.

[Johnptk]

Thank you for the detailed explanation! It will certainly help!
I'm actually having trouble finding videos where he demonstrates the 2 way picking slant out of curiousity as I am toying with the idea of implementing alternate picking for various reasons... there are so many videos of him on YouTube it's difficult to find the right ones. I found one where he demonstrates sweeping and alternate picking but he didn't go into much detail when it came to the alternate picking part, it was more about changing direction of the sweep which I am already familiar with. Can anyone point me in the right direction where he demonstrates the 2 way slant please? Thanks.

[christianm77]

Thank you for the detailed explanation! It will certainly help!
I'm actually having trouble finding videos where he demonstrates the 2 way picking slant out of curiousity as I am toying with the idea of implementing alternate picking for various reasons... there are so many videos of him on YouTube it's difficult to find the right ones. I found one where he demonstrates sweeping and alternate picking but he didn't go into much detail when it came to the alternate picking part, it was more about changing direction of the sweep which I am already familiar with. Can anyone point me in the right direction where he demonstrates the 2 way slant please? Thanks.

I haven't really checked that stuff out in detail.... I have a feeling you have to subscribe....

[mikostep]

Some very good advices so far.
I would watch those videos again and dedicate day or two (or more) for trying to replicate movements of all those players and playing situations. Just think of it as learning some lick. After some time you'll just learn what to use where or at least if something isn't working you'll be able to trace it down why. Then you choose what is natural and appropriate for you.
I already wrote that I use (mostly) Benson grip + trailing edge picking + crosspicking. Actually, crosspicking (example play one note on each string kind arrpegios) is totally natural because pick is always away from string after pluck. (i've noticed that my left hand now needs attention, hehe). But I can use movements to crosspick like Albert Lee or Steve Morse or Martin Miller or Doc Watson because I saw and learnt which movements they use. All from Troy's videos. The reason I use my formula is because it instantly gives me this specific sensation, funky one. Yes, and Benson staccatoish playing is so easy. Also, this way I don't have to think about my right hand so I can concetrate on other things.
S..tt, I just realized that I wrote such a prepotent post(s). Sorry, folks.

[mikostep]

Two way pick slant - Michael Angelo Batio video.

[Johnptk]

Two way pick slant - Michael Angelo Batio video.

I just saw that one actually, looks quite complicated!, but I'll give it a try and see if i can make it work.

Thanks for all the advice so far guys you've all been very helpful.